It is a pretty accurate description of my current meta:

- Combination of mindlinked protectorate, jumpmaster and Shadowcasters with a Hawk sometimes appearing.

- Defenders, Tie S/F along with the inquisitor.

- We don't have many playing Rebels though and some are still trying to make the T-70 work

So overall, things are progressing pretty much as I originally expected; ships that can stack focus and evade along with autothrusters have greatly diminished. With that in mind, I might just be able to field my IG-88 again...

3 minutes ago, defkhan1 said:

How much longer do we have to wait? It's been almost two months since the nerf happened. You'd think somebody would've come up with something groundbreaking by now. I know I've been trying to.

WEll, the phantom decloak nerf was what, early 2015? And removed whisper from the meta overnight because everyone thought she was useless after the timing change. Wasn't until into 2016 that I remember her really becoming a part of the meta again effectively.

I'm very surprised to see the attack shuttle with a higher rank than the ghost. What are these lists that are running shuttles on their own?

Yeah, its ugly. Last year I was so hopeful about the state of the game, but the last year of the Jumpmaster has been about as bad as the Phantom release. Not really sure what Imperials need at this point. I actually wonder if just making the TLT unique would be enough to do the job.

2 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

...and she (Whisper) didn't really come back as a noticeable ship in the meta until the Mynock Special last season.

My point is just that for a lot of people, they see a big nerf, decide those are now useless (and the rest of the imperial faction as a side effect, since people weren't playing anything but palp and/or x7 defenders pretty much because they were so much better), so they don't bother to look at the fact that other ships actually ARE viable, and are actually worth looking at now that they aren't completely outshone by x7 defenders. I fully expect imperials to come back as a presence int eh meta, just takes time.

I get your points, they flow well. However, I think they are subjective and oversimplifying in the wrong way what I see is actually going on in the game currently. I agree "following the heard" does happen with some players, sure. But I'll also argue that most all players who run in tournaments to take some scalps (in a fun way), aren't so easily blown by the winds of opinions or shock value of FAQ retorts or meta popularity changes. Such players go get the best horse in the stable with the best rider to run the track they want to win. They tend to not follow the crowd. They analyze, they think, they have experience with all the squads and tools therein. They know when something is solid and they also know when it is a long-shot. They simply don't want to spend three days playing a game they plan to enjoy, running it up against what they know to be powerful counters over and over, and rely on hope that they are just a far superior pilot than the idiot they'll face or the dice will just miraculously fall in their favor over and over, day after day. If you look at the players who really run Imperials well, and know exactly what tools and abilities those pilots, ships and upgrades bring, and look at what their World's lists this year turn out to be, I think my opinion --be it subjectively moronic or no-- will be born out mathematically in the to-be-written history of the event. I'm no expert, but I follow a few I consider so and I play/study a lot....I just cannot get post-nerf Imps squads to work against the meta lists even close to anything approaching an average amount of the time I attempt it; not personally, nor in more squads I watch by better players, nor simply on paper. And to add color to my ramblings, Miranda lists are easily the primary bane of my attempts to breach this impasse.

....guess I'm the wet --yet seemingly realistic-- blanket.

13 minutes ago, fishlegs said:

I'm very surprised to see the attack shuttle with a higher rank than the ghost. What are these lists that are running shuttles on their own?

They're not. But people are running Ghosts without shuttles, and those are performing worse than Ghost+shuttle.

Attack Shuttle performance is essentially an exact numerical proxy for the Kannan/Biggs archetype.

43 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

WEll, the phantom decloak nerf was what, early 2015? And removed whisper from the meta overnight because everyone thought she was useless after the timing change. Wasn't until into 2016 that I remember her really becoming a part of the meta again effectively.

Yes but Whisper disappearing from the meta =/= Imperials as a faction disappearing from the top tables. When Whisper disappeared, that didn't throw Imperial listbuilding into chaos until she came back. If your point is that after the Palp nerf, it will take people time to come back to Palp, then yes I agree. But my point is that in the meantime, it's surprising that people haven't found a killer replacement for all the things that dominated Imperial listbuilding in the past.

5 minutes ago, defkhan1 said:

Yes but Whisper disappearing from the meta =/= Imperials as a faction disappearing from the top tables. When Whisper disappeared, that didn't throw Imperial listbuilding into chaos until she came back. If your point is that after the Palp nerf, it will take people time to come back to Palp, then yes I agree. But my point is that in the meantime, it's surprising that people haven't found a killer replacement for all the things that dominated Imperial listbuilding in the past.

Plus we see zero of that kind of adjustment time from Scum.

7 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

Plus we see zero of that kind of adjustment time from Scum.

This.

They don't need too, just reload some details...clearly due to their two "crutches" of Mindlink and Jumpmasters. BTW, I don't really believe they're "crutches," they're just two awesome Scum power tools, akin to how X7 and Palp were.

9 hours ago, FTS Gecko said:

...wow. And you had the nerve to call my nerf thread a **** joke.

Honestly, it's sad little wholly inaccurate blanket statements like that which gives meta analysis a bad name. Sorry, a worse name.

I mean let's face it, this analysis is tragically flawed from the opening sentence, so drawing a conclusion which essentially scrubs an entire faction on the back of it is, well, laughable, to say the least.

But you posted a lot of words and a pretty (pretty useless) graphic, so no doubt it will go down really well amongst that portion of the community who wants to know what to buy so they can play the game on easy mode.

Gunna have to disagree with you on this one. The prior meta-wing post was kinda iffy (and I think I even agreed with you on the prior thread) but this one seems much more clear, with straightforward caveats placed before the graphic. Plus I thought the graphic was interesting. (Although I suppose "useful" vs. "useless" depends more on a matter of perspective--I can guess what yours is). The line trends on the right I also though were an interesting addition from last time.

Something Something inconclusive data. Something Something Meta-wing. Something Something Casual play. Something Something I secretly appreciate the time you put into this kind of data collection even if I don't show it correctly by bashing on its faults, even if it does provide a relevant snap shot of the meta for competitive play.

9 hours ago, Stay On The Leader said:

There's some fantastic pilots down there at the bottom - enough untapped potential I would expect at least one big surprise success at Worlds.

Maybe it's Redline's time to shine!*

* It's not Redline's time to shine.

The only way redline shines is if he pushes the limit. (Get it?) (*cries in non-ept*)

12 hours ago, Johen Dood said:

I think the meta would be MUCH more approachable by Imps if it weren't for Miranda/Sabine/Adv Slam. The others: Kanan/Biggs, Triple Jumps, Parattanni, etc.; these lists could be built around by an Imp player- but there's the huge risk that you'll play a game against a Miranda list and you'll lose before dice ever hit the table.

I hate to rag on Miranda so much, but seriously, when I build an Imperial list there's just too many ships I totally rule out because "Meh, can't take that because it will instantly die to a Miranda SLAM'd Sabine bomb."

See people keep making blanket statements like that, but I've won that matchup plenty of times with Imperials. I was also playing a bombing Miranda + Warden list during last years regional/national season (before it was cool! I'm a special snowflake like that ), so I've played that matchup several times from both sides.

The reason bomb lists win is ignorance. It's the kind of list that will destroy an opponent who has never faced it before, but as soon as a decent player has faced it a few times, it's no longer the monster that it first appears to be. Flanking, blocking, baiting and careful engagements are what win that matchup, as well as recognising when to sacrifice ships, and when to disengage to conserve ships.

A decently well flown Whisper can be a nightmare for a bombing lists. She's tough to pin down, flanks well, can block with her decloak, and does a lot of damage. She's also one of the few ships that can 1v1 Miranda. An academy (a useful control element to have) can plonk himself in front of Miranda/Warden so they lose their action and can't do any SLAM non-sense. Deathrain (another underrated ship) packs Ordnance and can Connor Net Miranda before she can move. TIE/Ds will shred K-wings and remove their (already limited) ability to manoeuvre.

The Imperials have plenty of excellent ships and lists that can also deal with bombing lists too. I don't say this "in theory" I know from experience, both as the bomber player, and as the Imperial player. Also, if Sabine + bombs is so good and utterly invalidates imperials aces like you claim, then why is Fenn such a force in the meta?

12 hours ago, clanofwolves said:

That was a unintelligent use of not only "quote within a 'quote' marks" but it was, in my opinion, ignorant of the facts.

You silent you're talky round hole; I english good and such!

8 hours ago, VanderLegion said:

How long did it take for Whisper to show back up in the meta regularly after the decloak nerf? From my recollection, its as WELL over 2 months. And I've been quite happy with my current imperial list.

Better yet, how long were all the components available before someone cracked onto Dengaroo? It was many months after the Jumpmaster release if I'm remembering correctly.

7 hours ago, Jeff Wilder said:

This is my impression, as well. I haven't seen anybody trying to fly Palpatine and failing, or trying to fly Defenders and failing.

Instead, what I have seen is people saying, "Well, they're weaker now. Must be useless." And then they don't show up in the data.

We actually saw the exact same effect with JM5Ks after the Deadeye nerf. It's just that JM5Ks are so crazy-powerful that the "welp, useless now" phase simply didn't last long enough to show up in the data.

I think the data is useful, but I do think it has to be examined with its limitations in mind.

7 hours ago, VanderLegion said:

My point is just that for a lot of people, they see a big nerf, decide those are now useless (and the rest of the imperial faction as a side effect, since people weren't playing anything but palp and/or x7 defenders pretty much because they were so much better), so they don't bother to look at the fact that other ships actually ARE viable, and are actually worth looking at now that they aren't completely outshone by x7 defenders. I fully expect imperials to come back as a presence in the meta, just takes time.

Yeah very good summations, and this is exactly what I've seen in our local meta. After the nerfs people just stopped playing Imperials competitively, without even bothering to see how much the nerfs actually affected them. In particular the amount of X7 Defenders has dropped off a cliff, which is nuts because they're still incredibly good.

I just find it slightly irksome when people constantly poo-poo stuff they haven't actually tried. I'm probably occasionally guilty of it too, but I still find it irritating.

7 hours ago, VanderLegion said:

Also, the x7 and palp nerfs (and nail in the coffin of dengaroo) were a huge buff to the tie swarm

The complete removal of Dengaroo and reduction of X7 Defenders also helps all the Imperial aces and mini-aces, which suffered against them. Also Fenn Rau makes up a sizeable share of the meta, and he really hates being shot at by Inquisitor and/or Omega Leader.

9 minutes ago, CRCL said:

See people keep making blanket statements like that, but I've won that matchup plenty of times with Imperials. I was also playing a bombing Miranda + Warden list during last years regional/national season (before it was cool! I'm a special snowflake like that ), so I've played that matchup several times from both sides.

The reason bomb lists win is ignorance. It's the kind of list that will destroy an opponent who has never faced it before, but as soon as a decent player has faced it a few times, it's no longer the monster that it first appears to be. Flanking, blocking, baiting and careful engagements are what win that matchup, as well as recognising when to sacrifice ships, and when to disengage to conserve ships.

A decently well flown Whisper can be a nightmare for a bombing lists. She's tough to pin down, flanks well, can block with her decloak, and does a lot of damage. She's also one of the few ships that can 1v1 Miranda. An academy (a useful control element to have) can plonk himself in front of Miranda/Warden so they lose their action and can't do any SLAM non-sense. Deathrain (another underrated ship) packs Ordnance and can Connor Net Miranda before she can move. TIE/Ds will shred K-wings and remove their (already limited) ability to manoeuvre.

The Imperials have plenty of excellent ships and lists that can also deal with bombing lists too. I don't say this "in theory" I know from experience, both as the bomber player, and as the Imperial player. Also, if Sabine + bombs is so good and utterly invalidates imperials aces like you claim, then why is Fenn such a force in the meta?

You silent you're talky round hole; I english good and such!

Better yet, how long were all the components available before someone cracked onto Dengaroo? It was many months after the Jumpmaster release if I'm remembering correctly.

Yeah very good summations, and this is exactly what I've seen in our local meta. After the nerfs people just stopped playing Imperials competitively, without even bothering to see how much the nerfs actually affected them. In particular the amount of X7 Defenders has dropped off a cliff, which is nuts because they're still incredibly good.

I just find it slightly irksome when people constantly poo-poo stuff they haven't actually tried. I'm probably occasionally guilty of it too, but I still find it irritating.

The complete removal of Dengaroo and reduction of X7 Defenders also helps all the Imperial aces and mini-aces, which suffered against them. Also Fenn Rau makes up a sizeable share of the meta, and he really hates being shot at by Inquisitor and/or Omega Leader.

Again, this still doesn't account for all the current data. You can't be the only one who has been experimenting with alternate play styles for Imperials, and yet you still see a decline in Imps in the rankings. That can't be all cold feet because of the nerf.

While I respect your experience, I would like to know how far up you've gone with it? If you are doing well in your local scene, great, but that still isn't as strong a case as the System Open results we have.

While there are bomber predators in the Empire, they have their own predators to worry about. Take TIE/D's. The rely on the control aspect of their cannons to stay alive. That works wonderfully against K-Wings, but a Ghost? Or any of the many large base ships Scum uses regularly? Not so much.

Fenn Rau is around for two reasons. One is Mindlink. The other is because he is a sentient missile that knows he's going to die anyway. He just has to get a couple range 1 shots of, and he's paid for himself. Imp Aces rely more on being able to survive to make up for their cost.

While x7 is still strong, it now has a very easily exploited weakness in stress control. With the reemergence of the Stresshog and Ventress flying around, x7's are now in a very hostile environment where it's not getting the job done, as shown in recent System Opens.

Like you, I am not presenting this "in theory". These are deductions from observing System Open data, a little personal experience, and input from three friends who are predominantly Imperial players. Until the tournament data supports people's claims that the Empire (Imp Aces, in particular) can cut it in today's meta, I remain concerned.

11 hours ago, markcsoul said:

Also some ships at the bottom are surprising. Aggressors and phantoms are no where near that bad. I can attest from some recent games that whisper is still a pain in the a** to fly against.

Regarding aggressors, I think it's a combination of 2 issues:

-Brobots aren't really a competitive list anymore

-If you're thinking of taking only 1 Aggressor, Ketsu or Assaj give you more bang for your buck at a similar cost.

2 hours ago, SabineKey said:

Again, this still doesn't account for all the current data. You can't be the only one who has been experimenting with alternate play styles for Imperials, and yet you still see a decline in Imps in the rankings. That can't be all cold feet because of the nerf.

I think its a pretty big combo of the meta shakeup from the nerf and the pure power of Jumpmasters/Mindlinks/Scum ships in general and Miranda/Warden/Sabine (with a dash of VCX/Biggs). I agree with CRCL that the matchup against SlamBombers is a lot more manageable with experience and even more so if you have tools for the job, like an Ion TieD defender. Dont get me wrong, experience from all forms of match-ups are important but bombers are opponents that have rather unique requirements and as such rewards experience to an even higher degree.

@Stay On The Leader thanks for the effort in putting this together. I always enjoy your blogs analysing the meta.

A Londoner.

Edit: The point that TIE Fighters should be listed with Rebels because of who the top performing TIE Fighter pilots is really jarring. A sad day for the Empire.

3 hours ago, SabineKey said:

Again, this still doesn't account for all the current data. You can't be the only one who has been experimenting with alternate play styles for Imperials, and yet you still see a decline in Imps in the rankings. That can't be all cold feet because of the nerf.

While I respect your experience, I would like to know how far up you've gone with it? If you are doing well in your local scene, great, but that still isn't as strong a case as the System Open results we have.

Like I said before, I think the stats are a bit skewed at the moment, and eventually it'll equalises a bit more (Scum will still be king of the hill though). The perception that Imperials are in a really bad place at the moment creates a self fulfilling prophecy. Maybe I'll be wrong or maybe I'll be right; we'll see.

Quote

While there are bomber predators in the Empire, they have their own predators to worry about. Take TIE/D's. The rely on the control aspect of their cannons to stay alive. That works wonderfully against K-Wings, but a Ghost? Or any of the many large base ships Scum uses regularly? Not so much.

TIE/Ds handle Ghost lists just fine (they handle pretty much any Rebel list well). The hardest matchup I found for my double TIE/D list is the Bossk + Ketsu (or sometimes Dengar) Alpha-strike list. It's very difficult to outmanoeuvre them with Defenders (you just end up flanking with one TIE/D and jousting with the other TIE/D + the TIE/ln), and it's more than capable of PS-killing one if you mess up the initial engagement and get double tractored. It's not that common a list though, and even if you do get matched against it, it's still winnable with some careful flying and/or a bit of luck.

Most of the other scum stuff is fine (their low/mid-agility makes most of their ships susceptible to TIE/Ds), with Fenn being somewhat problematic if you miss the R2 block (he's pretty much dead if you get it though). Dengaroo was the other problem matchup, but has been completely removed from the meta (yay!).

14 minutes ago, CRCL said:

Like I said before, I think the stats are a bit skewed at the moment, and eventually it'll equalises a bit more (Scum will still be king of the hill though). The perception that Imperials are in a really bad place at the moment creates a self fulfilling prophecy. Maybe I'll be wrong or maybe I'll be right; we'll see.

The empire has no less then three relatively cheap ships types with (using upgrades, some uniques) 3 attack, 3 agi, 3 shields and 3 hull. Defenders, SFs with LF and Crackshot Tomax with LF are all strong ships that clocks in at 25-30 points. Add to that Pure Sabacc throwing 4 dice for 22 points and we have a pretty strong and diverse collection of ships. When the next wave arrives we have Unguided rockets that I think will make Tomax a real force.

For my part, I am experimenting a lot with 4 ship Imperial builds at the moment, either triple beaters with a blocker or four equal threats and things are going pretty good. The lists are not tier 1 yet (at least not with me flying them... ) but that is more due to the raw strength of mindlink boosted super scum ships then from Imperials being bad.

I am actually more concerned about rebels tbh. Fly Miranda, Ghost/biggs or perhaps Dash or some power falcon or lose horribly. But I am epic happy about the 2B2ZStresshog win that someone pulled off a while back though.

Or Ahsoka TIE or Warden Sqd or Y-Wings.

1 hour ago, Stay On The Leader said:

Or Ahsoka TIE or Warden Sqd or Y-Wings.

Agreed and perhaps also adding Stresshog/mule and some mean Norra builds. I probably shouldnet worry. Havent seen them win a lot though tbh. Some great player highs with Wardens. But I really haven't looked for a while tbh. Been to busy actually playing.

7 hours ago, CRCL said:

See people keep making blanket statements like that, but I've won that matchup plenty of times with Imperials. I was also playing a bombing Miranda + Warden list during last years regional/national season (before it was cool! I'm a special snowflake like that ), so I've played that matchup several times from both sides.

The reason bomb lists win is ignorance.

Yep. Blanket statements and ignorance. You got me.

....actually, you don't. We just completely disagree. Let's talk post Worlds ?

4 hours ago, Ram said:

For my part, I am experimenting a lot with 4 ship Imperial builds at the moment, either triple beaters with a blocker or four equal threats and things are going pretty good. The lists are not tier 1 yet (at least not with me flying them... ) but that is more due to the raw strength of mindlink boosted super scum ships then from Imperials being bad.

Yeah I've been finding 4 ships to be the sweet spot at the moment. I threw together a Quickdraw + OL + Sabacc + Academy list for our league night and was surprise at how well it worked. I only lost 1/4 games, and I was confident if the game hadn't gone to time I could have won it (they're only 60 minute rounds). Pure Sabacc is just such a good flanker. You can't let him blast away at you with that double modded 4-dice gun, but he's so cheap that the 'anvil' part of the list is also incredibly painful to ignore.

2 hours ago, clanofwolves said:

We just completely disagree. Let's talk post Worlds ?

Fair enough. It will be interesting to see what people come up with.

2 hours ago, CRCL said:

Pure Sabacc is just such a good flanker. You can't let him blast away at you with that double modded 4-dice gun, but he's so cheap that the 'anvil' part of the list is also incredibly painful to ignore.

It took me a while to figure out the Striker. You have to realize you're always going faster than what you set the dial and its very easy to send it out on its own to die. I think the most interesting thing about it is the ability to bank to one side and hard turn back the other way. It's really hard to counter in a head on engagement for a lot of ships, particularly since Sabacc can still abort the plan and push the other way.

There's a topic for a blog bubbling away that I've got about 75% of what I want to say, just not quite ready to launch it. It would be about how the balance in your squad is a communication with your opponent about how to approach beating you.

Quickdraw really brings that to the fore I think because you want to make him what they shoot at, so does that mean Draw Their Fire, A Score to Settle, Expertise? And does that decision change with whatever else is in your list? It's almost like trying to keep aggro as a tank in WoW - like with Pure Sabacc he's pulling aggro from your Quickdraw so what do you do to ensure you keep aggro away from your flimsy DPS and make them look at Quickdraw?