With heavier and heavier small ships coming into play with every wave. The idea of "Large" ships losing half points when down to half health gets kind of silly.

Take a look at these examples

Small

K-Wing: 9 health

ARC: 9 health Scurrg

Bomber: 10 health

Wookie Gunship: 9 health (also with reinforce)

Large

Jumpmaster: 9 Health

YT-2400: 10 Health

Firespray: 9 Health

Aggressor 8 Health

Lambda: 10 Health

When you actually look at it what is the real point of large ships losing half points? Heck you can't even say it's upgrade slots that make the difference since some of the small ships have as many or more than the large ships?

Discuss

As much as I dislike chasing a regenning Miranda, she loses her offense to regen.

Chasing a regenning fat Han was just not at all fun.

Once upon a time, it was a very necessary change against fat turrets points fortressing. Now.... it may be worthwhile to make it points based. After say 40 points on a ship, the half point rule applies?

but then you have regen to consider there.

8 minutes ago, Shenannigan said:

As much as I dislike chasing a regenning Miranda , she loses her offense to regen.

Chasing a regenning fat Han was just not at all fun.

Miranda can out run any ship in the game and drop a bomb while doing it.

Large ships laugh at ions, tractors, and have a points discount. When they lose that... let's talk.

Points should be proportional to your health, any damage done should count towards your points killed, and any regenerated health should count as points destroyed.

When you lose a trooper in Imperial Assault your opponent scores points for it. When you reinforce and bring that trooper back into the fight and your opponent kills it off again, they score points for it again.

If you do 18 damage to a 48 point Miranda and she's still alive, then your opponent scores 96 points off of her.

The primary victory condition is to have a ship left on the board and destroy your opponent's ships. If it goes to time, then it's determined by points killed, which would be 148 for Miranda twice over and the rest of the squad. Your MoV would max out at 200 in order to prevent abuse by boosting your MoV.

The regen player can still win these fights where they're behind on points destroyed, they just have to actually engage and not just run. This isn't a big ask considering they still have a pristine ship after it has died twice over.

Let's turn these point fortresses into points piñatas.

28 minutes ago, Turbo Toker said:

Points should be proportional to your health, any damage done should count towards your points killed, and any regenerated health should count as points destroyed.

When you lose a trooper in Imperial Assault your opponent scores points for it. When you reinforce and bring that trooper back into the fight and your opponent kills it off again, they score points for it again.

If you do 18 damage to a 48 point Miranda and she's still alive, then your opponent scores 96 points off of her.

The primary victory condition is to have a ship left on the board and destroy your opponent's ships. If it goes to time, then it's determined by points killed, which would be 148 for Miranda twice over and the rest of the squad. Your MoV would max out at 200 in order to prevent abuse by boosting your MoV.

The regen player can still win these fights where they're behind on points destroyed, they just have to actually engage and not just run. This isn't a big ask considering they still have a pristine ship after it has died twice over.

Let's turn these point fortresses into points piñatas.

How would you even keep track of that? Sure, it's not that hard in theory, but in practice forcing both players to keep a tally of how many shields were knocked off that regenning Corran or Miranda is going to rapidly result in one player forgetting, and the two totals getting out of sync, with no way to know which of the players (if any) was actually correct.

7 minutes ago, MacchuWA said:

How would you even keep track of that? Sure, it's not that hard in theory, but in practice forcing both players to keep a tally of how many shields were knocked off that regenning Corran or Miranda is going to rapidly result in one player forgetting, and the two totals getting out of sync, with no way to know which of the players (if any) was actually correct.

A piece of paper. A countdown die. Piling destroyed shields and then counting how many are in the pile + any damage cards on the ship. One of those digital LCD life counters that Magic or Yu-Gi-Oh players use.

It would be no different than when you deal damage to a ship normally. Sometimes players get it wrong and miscount, or blank out and forget to put damage onto their ship. It's up to them to catch mistakes.

If this became the rule, people would get used to it. "Oh, I see that your ship has regen capability. You want to use this count down die to keep track of the damage done to it? That's fine. I have my own regen ship, and I'll be using this notepad for mine."

43 minutes ago, Turbo Toker said:

A piece of paper. A countdown die. Piling destroyed shields and then counting how many are in the pile + any damage cards on the ship. One of those digital LCD life counters that Magic or Yu-Gi-Oh players use.

It would be no different than when you deal damage to a ship normally. Sometimes players get it wrong and miscount, or blank out and forget to put damage onto their ship. It's up to them to catch mistakes.

If this became the rule, people would get used to it. "Oh, I see that your ship has regen capability. You want to use this count down die to keep track of the damage done to it? That's fine. I have my own regen ship, and I'll be using this notepad for mine."

You think accidentally seeing a dial should result in a game loss but you trust people to honestly keep track of how many shields they've taken off of a regenning ship over the course of a 75 minute game?

27 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

You think accidentally seeing a dial should result in a game loss but you trust people to honestly keep track of how many shields they've taken off of a regenning ship over the course of a 75 minute game?

I already trust them to honestly keep track of how many shields they lose over the course of a 75 minute game and that has never been a problem.

I don't see the issue here.

Just now, Turbo Toker said:

I already trust them to honestly keep track of how many shields they lose over the course of a 75 minute game and that has never been a problem.

I don't see the issue here.

Removing shields from the card as they take damage is way different from trying to keep track of how many shields have been lost from a regenning ship. You said just keep out the ones that are lost in a pile. What happens when the person losing the shields puts them away out of habit instead of the pile? What's to stop them from palming a token or two out of the pile when you aren't looking and reducing the number of "hits" you've gotten?

If I can get fluffy about it, I don't think shields should count against points at all. But every hull lost should.

If a ship starts the game with 5 Hull points, and ends the game with 2, then you should get 60% of it's cost in points.

But I don't think shields should count at all because if you only damaged the shields, then you didn't cause any lasting damage to the ship.

I'm sure there are a million gameplay reasons why this is a bad idea, but I don't really care about that.

Just now, DarthEnderX said:

If I can get fluffy about it, I don't think shields should count against points at all. But every hull lost should.

If a ship starts the game with 5 Hull points, and ends the game with 2, then you should get 60% of it's cost in points.

But I don't think shields should count at all because if you only damaged the shields, then you didn't cause any lasting damage to the ship.

I'm sure there are a million gameplay reasons why this is a bad idea, but I don't really care about that.

As far as fluff goes I totally agree with this

5 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

Removing shields from the card as they take damage is way different from trying to keep track of how many shields have been lost from a regenning ship. You said just keep out the ones that are lost in a pile. What happens when the person losing the shields puts them away out of habit instead of the pile? What's to stop them from palming a token or two out of the pile when you aren't looking and reducing the number of "hits" you've gotten?

The same thing that prevents someone from palming damage cards or sneaking an extra shield onto a ship when their opponent isn't noticing. A player's own honesty and vigilance, their opponent's vigilance, judges, etc.

Piling the shield tokens was also only one of the suggestions I made.

What's wrong with just bringing the half points rule to ALL ships? It solves the "points locker" problem in small ships to the same degree it did large.

I would just change it to any ship that's 50+ points. Maybe even 45+ to snare some Miranda builds.

3 minutes ago, markcsoul said:

I would just change it to any ship that's 50+ points. Maybe even 45+ to snare some Miranda builds.

That seems excessively complicated, and misses all the low level points locked ships, especially Assajj, almost all JM5K builds, and YV-666

2 minutes ago, markcsoul said:

I would just change it to any ship that's 50+ points. Maybe even 45+ to snare some Miranda builds.

Then you just undercut that by a point. This way your 44 point Defender with a hull upgrade can take 6 damage and still not give up any points.

Half health/partial point scoring also doesn't solve the problem that you can dip down below half health and then regen back up to full points. You'd have to specifically address regen in addition to everything else

On 4/24/2017 at 6:31 PM, Nastrado said:

With heavier and heavier small ships coming into play with every wave. The idea of "Large" ships losing half points when down to half health gets kind of silly.

Take a look at these examples

Small

K-Wing: 9 health

ARC: 9 health Scurrg

Bomber: 10 health

Wookie Gunship: 9 health (also with reinforce)

Large

Jumpmaster: 9 Health

YT-2400: 10 Health

Firespray: 9 Health

Aggressor 8 Health

Lambda: 10 Health

When you actually look at it what is the real point of large ships losing half points? Heck you can't even say it's upgrade slots that make the difference since some of the small ships have as many or more than the large ships?

Discuss

Mostly for the super YT-1300 point fortress (13 health) and the VT-49 (16 health) as these would consists of more than 50 points back in the 2 ship meta when the meta was in the tank cycle with very defensive play and most of the swiss going to time and being decided by MOV.

But yeah, it is odd that recently we have been receiving a lot of large base ships with less than 10 health (FYI Firespray is not one of them) and a lot of small ships with more than 8. However keep in mind that large base is not only the health but movement pattern and target for firing arcs. Large base ships are easier to catch in arc than smaller counterparts (had an A-wing run parallel with a Firespray, My A-wing could shoot, the Firespray could not).

Also keep in mind that half points only counts in competitive standard . There is no half points in escalation or epic ! Which makes good sense because not only huge ships can recover but there are large ships that have more hit points than huge ships. Now Escalation doesn't have huge ships but since it is very difficult to field a large ship in a 2 ship list that is less than 60 points it is not as much of an issue.

Everything with seven or more Hull+shields seems reasonable to score half points on as far as I'm concerned.

Just now, Marinealver said:

Also keep in mind that half points only counts in competitive standard . There is no half points in escalation or epic ! Which makes good sense because not only huge ships can recover but there are large ships that have more hit points than huge ships. Now Escalation doesn't have huge ships but since it is very difficult to field a large ship in a 2 ship list that is less than 60 points it is not as much of an issue.

But you do get points for every section that you cripple on a huge ship.

19 minutes ago, defkhan1 said:

But you do get points for every section that you cripple on a huge ship.

yup but that is not half points since the entire card and all equipped upgrades is counted. No 0.5 in the margin there.

4 hours ago, Turbo Toker said:

Points should be proportional to your health, any damage done should count towards your points killed, and any regenerated health should count as points destroyed.

When you lose a trooper in Imperial Assault your opponent scores points for it. When you reinforce and bring that trooper back into the fight and your opponent kills it off again, they score points for it again.

If you do 18 damage to a 48 point Miranda and she's still alive, then your opponent scores 96 points off of her.

The primary victory condition is to have a ship left on the board and destroy your opponent's ships. If it goes to time, then it's determined by points killed, which would be 148 for Miranda twice over and the rest of the squad. Your MoV would max out at 200 in order to prevent abuse by boosting your MoV.

The regen player can still win these fights where they're behind on points destroyed, they just have to actually engage and not just run. This isn't a big ask considering they still have a pristine ship after it has died twice over.

Let's turn these point fortresses into points piñatas.

Nope. Based on points and regen? Miranda rolls 1/2 defense dice. Fel rolls 3/4 or 4/5 defense dice with stealth. Miranda is much easier to kill than Fel. You need to think this recommendation through a little further.

Will there be a sliding scale for expensive, high agility ships? What about expensive, low agility sleds like the Punisher? And since the rebels are the only ones with regen capability they are unfairly targeted. Besides there are only 4 means for the Rebels to get regen ATM. R2-D2 (crew + Droid), R5-P9 and Miranda's ability. At most you'll see only two of the three possible regens in a squad and really only one most of the time.

Aside from regen capability, the Rebels are at a distinct disadvantage in squad building. Over priced ships, fewer mid level pilots with either pilot abilities or an EPT slot compared to either S&V or the Imperials.

And what's the difference between a naked Miranda and one loaded to the gills with all the toys? Not a **** thing! So while a naked Miranda can regen just like a Fat Miranda and both can die just as easily one is worth 96 points and the other isn't? You definitely need to rethink this idea.

There's a reason for the 1/2 points for big ships. Not only do they take more punishment but they can also be the fastest thing on the board making it difficult or impossible to kill them within a time limit. The 1/2 point MOV would never have come about if not for competitive play. Knock off more points than your opponent then play keep away for the remaining time. Legal? Yep. Just like Fortressing is legal and just about as much fun to play against.

23 minutes ago, Stoneface said:

Nope. Based on points and regen? Miranda rolls 1/2 defense dice. Fel rolls 3/4 or 4/5 defense dice with stealth. Miranda is much easier to kill than Fel. You need to think this recommendation through a little further.

Will there be a sliding scale for expensive, high agility ships? What about expensive, low agility sleds like the Punisher? And since the rebels are the only ones with regen capability they are unfairly targeted. Besides there are only 4 means for the Rebels to get regen ATM. R2-D2 (crew + Droid), R5-P9 and Miranda's ability. At most you'll see only two of the three possible regens in a squad and really only one most of the time.

Aside from regen capability, the Rebels are at a distinct disadvantage in squad building. Over priced ships, fewer mid level pilots with either pilot abilities or an EPT slot compared to either S&V or the Imperials.

And what's the difference between a naked Miranda and one loaded to the gills with all the toys? Not a **** thing! So while a naked Miranda can regen just like a Fat Miranda and both can die just as easily one is worth 96 points and the other isn't? You definitely need to rethink this idea.

There's a reason for the 1/2 points for big ships. Not only do they take more punishment but they can also be the fastest thing on the board making it difficult or impossible to kill them within a time limit. The 1/2 point MOV would never have come about if not for competitive play. Knock off more points than your opponent then play keep away for the remaining time. Legal? Yep. Just like Fortressing is legal and just about as much fun to play against.

Soontir costs less points typically and each point of health of his is worth more. Each individual damage to him is harder to do, but worth more. That's the sliding scale for high agility, low health ships.

Punishers can't regenerate. If you have a naked Cutlass Squadron, your opponent can only get 21 points max out if it.

The difference between a naked Miranda and one that's 48 points is that each damage done to the 29 point one is worth about 3 points, and each damage done to the 48 point one is worth about 5 points. If the 48 point Miranda was killed twice over, it would be worth 96 points. If the 29 point Miranda took 18 damage, it would be worth 58.

Rebels are not at a distinct disadvantage for squad building. Biggs is a huuuuge meta staple. Miranda is the best ship in the game. They have great stresshog options, Dash and Rey and Kanan (and Miranda) are great fat turrets.

6 hours ago, SabineKey said:

Once upon a time, it was a very necessary change against fat turrets points fortressing. Now.... it may be worthwhile to make it points based. After say 40 points on a ship, the half point rule applies?

but then you have regen to consider there.

I'd say 34 points personally. If it's more than a third of your list, it gives up half points if you get it to half health.

Regen ships are the trick there though.