8 hours ago, CEOWolf said:

Don't hate me for asking such a question... Mechanically speaking Political and Warfare are same thing right? So having them is just flavor? Why bother though...

Yes, you are right mechanical effect appears similar for the political and warfare conflict, with different card type effects (as explained above). Why have 2 conflicts that are named differently? From a design point of view I can see it making it easier to allow for the different type of conflicts cards they may want to include in the game with having less opportunity to create problems with card interactions; you do not want a brute military deck also being able to include control elements easily, for example.

But you final question of "why bother...?" the balance between political and military between the clans fighting for position is the entire story of Rokugan, not clearly defining it in the card game is pretty much making up another game that is not L5R; Most of current popular card games came about after the story, AGoT, LoTR, Star Wars etc. So they built around that. MtG created a brilliant mechanical game but was not bothered by story (they try!). L5r the CCG and story were created hand in hand together, story designed why mechanics where chosen and mechanics designed how cards interacted and was dictated by story, more than any other game. For the CCG it created design problems, but was a critical selling point for the game and is also very much needed by the fan base. So that is why they bothered.

I am sure this has been said in many different threads but is important to understand when playing L5R.

34 minutes ago, slowreflex said:

Given what we know about the 7 launch clans mechanics in the OP. If FFG were to add Mantis and Spider in a future Deluxe Box (which I think is likely), what would be a summary of how their mechanics would likely work? As I didn't plat Old5R, I have no idea what they do.

Mantis: The Yoritomo, and by extension the Clan as a whole, is most associated with their naval capacity. The Tsuruichi are the best archers in the world and the Moshi are magical Sun Priestesses. So expect mobility like the Unicorn with a bit of Crane-style military and whatever Phoenix end up doing.

Spider: Most likely a Crab-style military. Though there was an ongoing effort to get them an honor theme using their Susumu courtier family, so expect a variant for that at some point.

3 hours ago, slowreflex said:

Given what we know about the 7 launch clans mechanics in the OP. If FFG were to add Mantis and Spider in a future Deluxe Box (which I think is likely), what would be a summary of how their mechanics would likely work? As I didn't plat Old5R, I have no idea what they do.

Well, the main mechanic we saw from the Mantis was an abundance of Ranged Attacks, that is sending pointy wood-sticks in your opponent's characters. I guess this could translate to removing Fate from opposing personalities, or discarding them if they don't have any fate left. Now, I'd rather have the Mantis have something else than repeatable kill in this game. Now how could FFG set them apart from the other clans with this new ruleset, I have no idea.

Apart from the ranged attack, the Mantis personalities were the one to introduce the Naval trait. Which more or less guaranteed them the first action instead of the defender at each battle. This could happen. But it was strong with mantis thanks to the ranged attacks. Without ranged attacks, Naval could be interesting, but it would mean they need nice actions to perform.

For the Spider, I can't say. Apart from coming back from the dead and plopping followers, I couldn't say what their core mechanic was.

21 minutes ago, Ser Nakata said:

Well, the main mechanic we saw from the Mantis was an abundance of Ranged Attacks, that is sending pointy wood-sticks in your opponent's characters. I guess this could translate to removing Fate from opposing personalities, or discarding them if they don't have any fate left. Now, I'd rather have the Mantis have something else than repeatable kill in this game. Now how could FFG set them apart from the other clans with this new ruleset, I have no idea.

Apart from the ranged attack, the Mantis personalities were the one to introduce the Naval trait. Which more or less guaranteed them the first action instead of the defender at each battle. This could happen. But it was strong with mantis thanks to the ranged attacks. Without ranged attacks, Naval could be interesting, but it would mean they need nice actions to perform.

For the Spider, I can't say. Apart from coming back from the dead and plopping followers, I couldn't say what their core mechanic was.

I really hope Mantis still have Ranged Attacks, since focus on archery is what drew me to the Tsuruchi family in the first place. I'm not saying they need it to be a kill effect, and I wouldn't mind if ranged attacks were handled quite differently, but it'd still be nice if they were represented somehow.

Maybe ranged attacks could be represented by doing an action and then going home, bowed (you participated in the battle, but were out of range of most of the direct fighting, unless you were attacked early)? Or maybe they could have a relatively minor effect, but be able to use it without even having to go to the province in the first place (the Tsuruchi use longbows, which are really long range!)?

17 hours ago, hidasaurus said:

I am curious how they will handle the Crab in regards to political strength now that political challenges can break provinces. With Crab primarily going the Military route, will they be hampered by likely having only one viable challenge a round? As far as defending the wall, I am interested in seeing what they will be able to do to defend against political challenges assuming they will be weaker politically. Then again I was surprised to see "Borderlands Defender" with 3 political

I would expect there to be a Crab-only Province card that may switch the fight from Political to Military. There will probably also be a Crab only card which boosts the Skill of a Defending personality. However, in the pretty standard rock-paper-scissors approach, I would expect that attacking the Crab politically might be the "safest" approach. It is even thematic.

@Jedi samurai - So far, both the Mirumoto Prodigy and the Doomed Shugenja have been less expensive for their Skill than equivalents in other Clans. Doomed is a 3/3 for 1, and Prodigy is a 3/2 for 2. Compare that to the 3/- for 1 Matsu Berserker, the 1/1 for 1 Steadfast Scout, and other Personalities spoiled. The Dragon so far have less expensive people, but will probably see MORE Limited personalities and will not make a strong Swarm.

15 hours ago, JJ48 said:

1. The Stronghold would still be useful. There's no guarantee you'll make every conflict military, and even if you did, you could still use it before changing the conflict type.

2. You have no basis for stating "no helpful holdings". Even if you had no Crane holdings to help you (a very small chance, I'd wager), you would likely have some neutral holdings to help.

3. Why wouldn't any of the Daidoji ever be considered among the "best characters"? Even if they're not the best of the best, are you saying none of them will be any good at all?

4. Who's to say what "playing their clans correctly" is? Knowing my play group, we're liable to try all sorts of crazy things as long as the rules allow us.

Look, no one is claiming that every clan is going to have tons of options out of the core box. And no one is claiming that oddball decks are going to be winning Koteis left and right. In Old L5R, a Mantis Honor deck wouldn't really have been the most competitive deck in the world. But it was possible to play. And if it's possible to do, we, the players, will find ways to do it.

I'm just saying, making the claim, "Every single Crane deck throughout the entire life of the game, as long as FFG prints it, will be based on political conflicts and political conflicts alone, because a couple sentences in a two paragraph, high-level overview of the clan on the product page seems to say so if you read it just right!" may not be the strongest position one could take, especially in light of all the reasons people have already given you.

1) Come on. You really think miltiary deck is going to be viable out of a box that supports a political build? And who says you'll be able to change conflict type? That would seem to be a very powerful affect.

2) My basis is FFG saying that the Crane are a political clan with a political deck, and their history of supporting their themes. I would also say the Lion aren't going to any/many holdings etc... that support a political build

3) A minority, because we know the clan and their decks will be based on political strength.

4) We do, cause FFG told us how the clans will play.

And this status quo is similar to the CCG pre-Emperor. Look at Crab in samurai or celestial- you're saying "of course we could build an honor deck out of those cards".

14 hours ago, Smobey said:

Yeah, much like how in the old L5R CCG there was no way to build a Crab fire shugenja deck.

For the L5R core, there's only really going to be one theme per clan, period. That doesn't mean each clan isn't going to get subthemes later on. Crab's theme is going to probably be defensive focus and focus on holdings/fortifications/whatever; a Yasuki dishonour deck still works with that overall theme.

It might take years of card releases before something like that becomes genuinely viable though, but hey.

Also, regarding strongholds, I think it's a fair assumption to make each clan will receive multiple. Look at Netrunner: Shapers alone have like what, ten identities now?

We might get more strongholds, we might not. ARe they going use those to unfocuse their decks, or address balance issues?

14 hours ago, CEOWolf said:

Don't hate me for asking such a question... Mechanically speaking Political and Warfare are same thing right? So having them is just flavor? Why bother though...

Mechanically they appear to be identical, but distinct. There will be conflict cards that only affect or that are much more effective in one or the other. Personalities better in one or the other etc... I suspect that political conflicts will also gain you more honor while military will ahve more ways of removing units - but we don't know that.

8 hours ago, slowreflex said:

I think a Crane that is not doing some military conflicts will lose, unless there is a way to do two political conflicts a round instead of a military and a political conflict. Otherwise you are forfeiting 50% of your conflict opportunities. I think they are designing the game so that all factions will be doing military and political conflicts, just that some will be better at one type of conflict than another (but worse at the one their not good at), or equal on both.

It would appear each clan, except dragon (Again, if you allow all clans to do both, you;re making the Dragon less special) focuses on military (crab, lion, unicorn) or political (crane, scorpion, phoenix) conflicts. This doesn't mean they will be unable to attack or defend the other type, but it identifies what their strength is and what area the player should be looking to make their gains in. I'm sure the player that ignores one area of the game will lose most, if not all, of their games. However this idea that Crane will be able to be played like a Unicorn or Lion deck .... NOTHING we've seen would indicate that is the case, and we have signs that isn't.

1 hour ago, sndwurks said:

I would expect there to be a Crab-only Province card that may switch the fight from Political to Military. There will probably also be a Crab only card which boosts the Skill of a Defending personality. However, in the pretty standard rock-paper-scissors approach, I would expect that attacking the Crab politically might be the "safest" approach. It is even thematic.

@Jedi samurai - So far, both the Mirumoto Prodigy and the Doomed Shugenja have been less expensive for their Skill than equivalents in other Clans. Doomed is a 3/3 for 1, and Prodigy is a 3/2 for 2. Compare that to the 3/- for 1 Matsu Berserker, the 1/1 for 1 Steadfast Scout, and other Personalities spoiled. The Dragon so far have less expensive people, but will probably see MORE Limited personalities and will not make a strong Swarm.

Switching a battle type would seem to be a very powerful affect. You could very well be nurfing your opponents hand AND character base at the battle field. I'm sure it will exist, but it will be rare. If you look at GoT2 - there are no cards that change challenge type (its a powerful affect), what they have are cards that allow for additional challenges.

Yes, the Dragon guys seem to costed well (we don't know the base line yet, to be fair) but look at their abilites. Both can be negatives to the player. The Shugenja can only stay around for 1 turn. Period and it limits the amount of cards you can play in a turn. The Prodigy is blank unless it attacks alone, its ability it completely dependent on board state.

3 minutes ago, Jedi samurai said:

Switching a battle type would seem to be a very powerful affect. You could very well be nurfing your opponents hand AND character base at the battle field. I'm sure it will exist, but it will be rare. If you look at GoT2 - there are no cards that change challenge type (its a powerful affect), what they have are cards that allow for additional challenges.

The Phoenix already have it:

Look at the text on Mori Kuroi. Conflict Type is Political vs Military.

3 minutes ago, sndwurks said:

The Phoenix already have it:

Look at the text on Mori Kuroi. Conflict Type is Political vs Military.

ok........... did you read what I said?

"Switching a battle type would seem to be a very powerful affect (should be effect). You could very well be nurfing your opponents hand AND character base at the battle field. I'm sure it will exist, but it will be rare. If you look at GoT2 - there are no cards that change challenge type (its a powerful affect), what they have are cards that allow for additional challenges"

1 hour ago, Jedi samurai said:

ok........... did you read what I said?

"Switching a battle type would seem to be a very powerful affect (should be effect). You could very well be nurfing your opponents hand AND character base at the battle field. I'm sure it will exist, but it will be rare. If you look at GoT2 - there are no cards that change challenge type (its a powerful affect), what they have are cards that allow for additional challenges"

This is an LCG, so there are no rare cards. What do you mean by rare?

1 minute ago, agarrett said:

This is an LCG, so there are no rare cards. What do you mean by rare?

not very many

55 minutes ago, agarrett said:

This is an LCG, so there are no rare cards. What do you mean by rare?

Not numerous.

Fellow humans... while I appreciate and occasionally participate in wild speculation, we can't expect every deck type that ever was to be viable on Day 1 right out of the box. AEG had a couple decades to tweak and expand the card base and rules (for good or ill). Patience may not be part of Bushido, but it's a virtue nonetheless.

7 minutes ago, twinstarbmc said:

Fellow humans... while I appreciate and occasionally participate in wild speculation, we can't expect every deck type that ever was to be viable on Day 1 right out of the box. AEG had a couple decades to tweak and expand the card base and rules (for good or ill). Patience may not be part of Bushido, but it's a virtue nonetheless.

Battle Maiden decks became a thing after I had stopped playing. I guess that putting as many of them as possible (Kamoko, Tetsuko, Xieng Chi, Yu-Pan, Shahijir and follower) in my decks pleased the Fortunes.

On Tue Apr 25 2017 at 8:44 AM, Ser Nakata said:

With as much as 2 cards per Clan per month, you won't see new themes emerge quickly, that's for sure. The deluxe boxes should help with introducing new themes and mechanics, though.

There is usually a main theme from launch, with 1 or 2 smaller themes showing up on 1 or 2 cards each. These are expanded in the first 2 cycles. The deluxe adds another theme that will also show up, alongside strengthening existing themes.

39 minutes ago, Radix2309 said:

There is usually a main theme from launch, with 1 or 2 smaller themes showing up on 1 or 2 cards each. These are expanded in the first 2 cycles. The deluxe adds another theme that will also show up, alongside strengthening existing themes.

I guess it depends on what the "themes" are.

In celestial, for example, the Crab had "Hero" "Berserker" "Scout" and "Commander" as themes. Each was different, but each was also military (it was before "each clan has to have everything" think in Emperor).

Thats the type of ..... themes or variation I would expect to see from FFG. Since we're mostly usign Crane as the example - using Politics to break the stronghold, honor victory. Dueling and non-Dueling variations. Asahina and non-Asahina variations.

3 hours ago, Wintersong said:

Battle Maiden decks became a thing after I had stopped playing. I guess that putting as many of them as possible (Kamoko, Tetsuko, Xieng Chi, Yu-Pan, Shahijir and follower) in my decks pleased the Fortunes.

My Battle Maiden deck was one of my absolute favorite decks. Nothin' says lovin' like a playset of Hamstrung.

Glad to see Crab Dishonor is alive and well. For certain definitions of the word well at least. Honestly, getting a Yasuki in the base set is better than I was expecting.

I expect the Crab Stronghold will involve flipping a card in a Province face-up if you control a Holding.

Masahiro and I Can Swim seem like they'll be a pain to deal with.

On 4/27/2017 at 1:30 AM, shineyorkboy said:

Glad to see Crab Dishonor is alive and well. For certain definitions of the word well at least. Honestly, getting a Yasuki in the base set is better than I was expecting.

I expect the Crab Stronghold will involve flipping a card in a Province face-up if you control a Holding.

Masahiro and I Can Swim seem like they'll be a pain to deal with.

I would guess the Yasuki will be the Crabs primary political defense (offense - depending on match up and board state). Hida will obviously be their main face punchers, Kaiu abilities will likely booster your defense with some attachment stuff mixed in too. Kuni will use spells to support the Hida and Kaiu with spells, when needed/wanted. I think it'd be cool/neat if the Hiruma were conflict deck personalities.

The two boxes we've seen have combat affects on them. I would guess/assume their stronghold will boost defending Crab's abilties or hurt attacking characters abilities. Your defending Crab personalities contribute their miltiary and political value even when bowed - something like that.

Chances are that conflict deck personalities aren't going to have any clan family names on them. Otherwise you get situations like a Dragon deck randomly playing Hiruma scouts.

34 minutes ago, Smobey said:

Chances are that conflict deck personalities aren't going to have any clan family names on them. Otherwise you get situations like a Dragon deck randomly playing Hiruma scouts.

Unless thats how influence works, and the conflict personalities have too much to be included.

I would guess that Scorpion Ninja and Crane Harriers will be conflict characters, while Hiruma Scouts, maybe some Phoenix Yojimbo (showing up wit a surprise save) might be as well.

7 hours ago, Smobey said:

Chances are that conflict deck personalities aren't going to have any clan family names on them. Otherwise you get situations like a Dragon deck randomly playing Hiruma scouts.

OR they just put 0 influence on it and every thing is fine.

7 hours ago, Smobey said:

Chances are that conflict deck personalities aren't going to have any clan family names on them. Otherwise you get situations like a Dragon deck randomly playing Hiruma scouts.

But that's how it worked in Old5R when you played out of clan personalities. The cards will still also clearly be colored for another faction. Why would it be so impossible for my Crane deck to suddenly throw out a Shiba Bodyguard?

10 hours ago, Suzume Tomonori said:

But that's how it worked in Old5R when you played out of clan personalities. The cards will still also clearly be colored for another faction. Why would it be so impossible for my Crane deck to suddenly throw out a Shiba Bodyguard?

It is my belief that Scouts, Ninjas, Yojimbo, Water Shugenja/Monks and the like are exactly the types of Characters we will see in Conflict decks, because it works thematically and mechanically.

Deploying a lightly armed Scout into the middle of the fray makes perfect sense.

If these Characters are from out of Clan, then the Influence mechanic will limit their usage in deckbuilding. Which again, makes sense thematically and mechanically. The Phoenix honoring a Crane Courtier with a Shiba Yojimbo actually happens, but the Phoenix sending all of their Yojimbo to the Crane does not happen.

yasuki fate warfare was already a concept i was hoping to make!