1 minute ago, Jedi samurai said:

A deck who's biggest/best weapon is politics isn't goign to be a military deck.

True but they will crush enemy provinces politically?

27 minutes ago, C3gorach said:

What? I think you are wrong... In AGoT there are clearly different sub-themes within each House for sure, and i expect something similar to appear in L5R over time.

I'm not super plugged into that game, very casual - but as far as I know a Stark deck isn't going to play burn like a Targyrn deck or anything like that.

2 minutes ago, Wintersong said:

True but they will crush enemy provinces politically?

That would be my assumption. Their Doji, Asahina and Kakita characters will be strong political characters. The Daidoji and Kakita will add military presence in the deck (I would assume mostly for defending and/or counter attacking) - but when looking at the characters as a whole, the stronghold, the Crane specific holdings and conflict cards etc.... (once released) the clear direction will political as its primary focus. Basically the reverse of the Lion, I wouldn't expect the Lion be able to make a deck that wins through political battles primarily.

And remember one of the selling points they mentioned about the dragon was that they were good at both. If all clans end up being good at both, that means one of the Dragon's "selling features" is gone.

The Dragon are a mysterious and individualistic clan. The use of attachments is one of this clan’s greatest strengths, and it’s wise to invest in a few powerful characters with plans to give them multiple attachments. The concept of balance is also important to this clan, and they are well suited for both military and political conflicts. You must take advantage of this flexibility and strike wherever you opponent leaves an opening.

Why would they point this out as a strength of the Dragon is the goal is to have other clans be able to build decks that focus on both conflicts as well? The fact that this is a feature of the Dragon clan indicates that other clans will be more focused on one or the other (Crab, Lion, Unicorn - Military. Crane, Scorpion - Political. I would assume Phoenix will be like the dragon)

1 minute ago, Jedi samurai said:

The Dragon are a mysterious and individualistic clan. The use of attachments is one of this clan’s greatest strengths, and it’s wise to invest in a few powerful characters with plans to give them multiple attachments. The concept of balance is also important to this clan, and they are well suited for both military and political conflicts. You must take advantage of this flexibility and strike wherever you opponent leaves an opening.

Why would they point this out as a strength of the Dragon is the goal is to have other clans be able to build decks that focus on both conflicts as well? The fact that this is a feature of the Dragon clan indicates that other clans will be more focused on one or the other (Crab, Lion, Unicorn - Military. Crane, Scorpion - Political. I would assume Phoenix will be like the dragon)

I think the possibility of a switch mid game is a good point on this, rather than clans being exclusively good at one thing or another as a whole. Being able to leverage actually taking 2 provinces in a turn would be pretty powerful.

4 minutes ago, Jedi samurai said:

The Dragon are a mysterious and individualistic clan. The use of attachments is one of this clan’s greatest strengths, and it’s wise to invest in a few powerful characters with plans to give them multiple attachments. The concept of balance is also important to this clan, and they are well suited for both military and political conflicts. You must take advantage of this flexibility and strike wherever you opponent leaves an opening.

Why would they point this out as a strength of the Dragon is the goal is to have other clans be able to build decks that focus on both conflicts as well? The fact that this is a feature of the Dragon clan indicates that other clans will be more focused on one or the other (Crab, Lion, Unicorn - Military. Crane, Scorpion - Political. I would assume Phoenix will be like the dragon)

I think Phoenix will be more political. They are playing up the Phoenix as pacifists.

4 minutes ago, Jedi samurai said:

That would be my assumption. Their Doji, Asahina and Kakita characters will be strong political characters. The Daidoji and Kakita will add military presence in the deck (I would assume mostly for defending and/or counter attacking) - but when looking at the characters as a whole, the stronghold, the Crane specific holdings and conflict cards etc.... (once released) the clear direction will political as its primary focus. Basically the reverse of the Lion, I wouldn't expect the Lion be able to make a deck that wins through political battles primarily.

And remember one of the selling points they mentioned about the dragon was that they were good at both. If all clans end up being good at both, that means one of the Dragon's "selling features" is gone.

Maybe? The revealed Crane personalities are mixed between military (3) and political (3). The philosophy card seems to just give honor so that doesn't necessarily go towards political. The Stronghold does indeed lean towards politics. The two other revealed cards are that attachment which gives a huge boost to politics and Noble Sacrifice that could do either military or political. I really need to see more of their cards and esp. the neutrals before ultimately deciding.

Just now, Jedi samurai said:

The Dragon are a mysterious and individualistic clan. The use of attachments is one of this clan’s greatest strengths, and it’s wise to invest in a few powerful characters with plans to give them multiple attachments. The concept of balance is also important to this clan, and they are well suited for both military and political conflicts. You must take advantage of this flexibility and strike wherever you opponent leaves an opening.

Why would they point this out as a strength of the Dragon is the goal is to have other clans be able to build decks that focus on both conflicts as well? The fact that this is a feature of the Dragon clan indicates that other clans will be more focused on one or the other (Crab, Lion, Unicorn - Military. Crane, Scorpion - Political. I would assume Phoenix will be like the dragon)

Maybe more characters that feature an equal amount of military and political? Or perhaps some cards that allow a personality a personality low on one stat to switch it with another? There's a lot of room with these descriptions.

We really only have three Dragon personalities right now. The Shugenja can do either challenge with decent strength so that fits. The Mirumoto Prodigy is only a 3/2 so it leans slight towards military but the passive does force a 1v1 (fits a bit more with the individualistic approach). The swordsmith digs for attachments so that fits more with the attachment aspect.

6 minutes ago, Kubernes said:

Maybe? The revealed Crane personalities are mixed between military (3) and political (3). The philosophy card seems to just give honor so that doesn't necessarily go towards political. The Stronghold does indeed lean towards politics. The two other revealed cards are that attachment which gives a huge boost to politics and Noble Sacrifice that could do either military or political. I really need to see more of their cards and esp. the neutrals before ultimately deciding.

Maybe more characters that feature an equal amount of military and political? Or perhaps some cards that allow a personality a personality low on one stat to switch it with another? There's a lot of room with these descriptions.

We really only have three Dragon personalities right now. The Shugenja can do either challenge with decent strength so that fits. The Mirumoto Prodigy is only a 3/2 so it leans slight towards military but the passive does force a 1v1 (fits a bit more with the individualistic approach). The swordsmith digs for attachments so that fits more with the attachment aspect.

They've told us how the clans are susposed to be played/what their themes are.

Remember its not all about characters. Its the box, the holdings, the conflict cards (many, if not most, seem to be clan specific) that will guide the deck. Havign the characters is just one part of. If the Dragon conflict cards work in both battles or are a mix of the two while the Crane conflict cards are 80% political based.....

52 minutes ago, Jedi samurai said:

They've told us how the clans are susposed to be played/what their themes are.

Remember its not all about characters. Its the box, the holdings, the conflict cards (many, if not most, seem to be clan specific) that will guide the deck. Havign the characters is just one part of. If the Dragon conflict cards work in both battles or are a mix of the two while the Crane conflict cards are 80% political based.....

...then that's still 20% that aren't political-focused. Eventually, if the game continues long enough, 20% of a clan's cards will be enough to make an entire deck in itself.

7 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

...then that's still 20% that aren't political-focused. Eventually, if the game continues long enough, 20% of a clan's cards will be enough to make an entire deck in itself.

still doesn't = a viable deck if you have a useless stronghold, no helpful holdings, your best characters don't help you - and you'll be going against players who are playing their clans correctly.

I'll probably use Pheonix or Crane I prefer political themes to warfare.

10 minutes ago, Jedi samurai said:

still doesn't = a viable deck if you have a useless stronghold, no helpful holdings, your best characters don't help you - and you'll be going against players who are playing their clans correctly.

1. The Stronghold would still be useful. There's no guarantee you'll make every conflict military, and even if you did, you could still use it before changing the conflict type.

2. You have no basis for stating "no helpful holdings". Even if you had no Crane holdings to help you (a very small chance, I'd wager), you would likely have some neutral holdings to help.

3. Why wouldn't any of the Daidoji ever be considered among the "best characters"? Even if they're not the best of the best, are you saying none of them will be any good at all?

4. Who's to say what "playing their clans correctly" is? Knowing my play group, we're liable to try all sorts of crazy things as long as the rules allow us.

Look, no one is claiming that every clan is going to have tons of options out of the core box. And no one is claiming that oddball decks are going to be winning Koteis left and right. In Old L5R, a Mantis Honor deck wouldn't really have been the most competitive deck in the world. But it was possible to play. And if it's possible to do, we, the players, will find ways to do it.

I'm just saying, making the claim, "Every single Crane deck throughout the entire life of the game, as long as FFG prints it, will be based on political conflicts and political conflicts alone, because a couple sentences in a two paragraph, high-level overview of the clan on the product page seems to say so if you read it just right!" may not be the strongest position one could take, especially in light of all the reasons people have already given you.

I think Shadowlands can be best summed up by the flavor text on a card from one of my favorite games, Lunch Money.

Stomp:

"I shall stop upon all who oppose me. The stomping shall be swift. The stomping shall be painful. And, I shall show no mercy on all of my stomping. Amen."

I'm already planning on playing military Crane and looking forward to utilizing the previewed stronghold.

I didn't play old L5R so I'm assuming the Crane stronghold basically removes a character from the conflict, is that right? Because that still seems pretty useful even if you aren't all in on political dominance. You can declare weak political conflicts for the ring effect and force a larger commitment from your opponent to block you, or use it for defense the same way. Either way it would let you get some value out of a weaker political presence than would normally be the case.

3 hours ago, Jedi samurai said:

I'm not super plugged into that game, very casual - but as far as I know a Stark deck isn't going to play burn like a Targyrn deck or anything like that.

Yeah, much like how in the old L5R CCG there was no way to build a Crab fire shugenja deck.

For the L5R core, there's only really going to be one theme per clan, period. That doesn't mean each clan isn't going to get subthemes later on. Crab's theme is going to probably be defensive focus and focus on holdings/fortifications/whatever; a Yasuki dishonour deck still works with that overall theme.

It might take years of card releases before something like that becomes genuinely viable though, but hey.

Also, regarding strongholds, I think it's a fair assumption to make each clan will receive multiple. Look at Netrunner: Shapers alone have like what, ten identities now?

Don't hate me for asking such a question... Mechanically speaking Political and Warfare are same thing right? So having them is just flavor? Why bother though...

1 minute ago, CEOWolf said:

Don't hate me for asking such a question... Mechanically speaking Political and Warfare are same thing right? So having them is just flavor? Why bother though...

The basic rules for them are the same, but that doesn't mean they play out the same. There are certainly going to be Conflict cards that are only playable in Political conflicts and others that can only be played in Military conflicts. A deck that focuses entirely on the political will almost certainly play quite differently than a deck that focuses entirely on the military.

1 minute ago, CEOWolf said:

Don't hate me for asking such a question... Mechanically speaking Political and Warfare are same thing right? So having them is just flavor? Why bother though...

We don't know for sure, yet. While they seem to use the same basic mechanics, it's entirely possible they may have rather different focuses (e.g. cards that focus on political conflicts may not help you break provinces, but may help you gain honor better, and cards that focus on military conflicts could do the opposite). We'll have to wait to see for certain, but...

Aw, man! Smobey just beat me to making almost the exact same points! XD

Just now, Smobey said:

The basic rules for them are the same, but that doesn't mean they play out the same. There are certainly going to be Conflict cards that are only playable in Political conflicts and others that can only be played in Military conflicts. A deck that focuses entirely on the political will almost certainly play quite differently than a deck that focuses entirely on the military.

Ah I will probably focus on politics cuz Crane. I do wish there were more movies or TV shows that are exclusively political and little action... Most movies with a political theme only have it as plot devices and plot isn't ABOUT Politics...

3 hours ago, JJ48 said:

We don't know for sure, yet. While they seem to use the same basic mechanics, it's entirely possible they may have rather different focuses (e.g. cards that focus on political conflicts may not help you break provinces, but may help you gain honor better, and cards that focus on military conflicts could do the opposite). We'll have to wait to see for certain, but...

Aw, man! Smobey just beat me to making almost the exact same points! XD

That's true for the idea of the Crane liking to give the honored status to peeps. Yes, the status can be very helpful to personalities with glory, but it can also help get the player to 25 honor. We need more reviews!

3 hours ago, Smobey said:

Yeah, much like how in the old L5R CCG there was no way to build a Crab fire shugenja deck.

For the L5R core, there's only really going to be one theme per clan, period. That doesn't mean each clan isn't going to get subthemes later on. Crab's theme is going to probably be defensive focus and focus on holdings/fortifications/whatever; a Yasuki dishonour deck still works with that overall theme.

It might take years of card releases before something like that becomes genuinely viable though, but hey.

Also, regarding strongholds, I think it's a fair assumption to make each clan will receive multiple. Look at Netrunner: Shapers alone have like what, ten identities now?

I'm not entirely sure of every clan just doing one theme. The Crane already show several possibilities with their revealed cards and possible speculation of others (i.e. the philosophy card giving honor). I can see the core set focusing on one or two major themes in a clan but also having something different (i.e the revealed Crane unique). The same could be said of victory conditions with the Crane leaning towards conquest victory by breaking the opponent's stronghold or an honor victory.

I think a Crane that is not doing some military conflicts will lose, unless there is a way to do two political conflicts a round instead of a military and a political conflict. Otherwise you are forfeiting 50% of your conflict opportunities. I think they are designing the game so that all factions will be doing military and political conflicts, just that some will be better at one type of conflict than another (but worse at the one their not good at), or equal on both.

I think it's reasonable to expect every Clan to have some ability in both military and politics even if they focus on one or the other. The designers have said that they want battles where you and your opponent are trading actions to be the focus of the game. And if you can't interact with your opponent because they have the opposite focus that's not a very engaging experience.

Plus, like slowreflex said, since you can launch a military and political attack each turn not being able to do both halves your options.

7 hours ago, GoblinGuide said:

I didn't play old L5R so I'm assuming the Crane stronghold basically removes a character from the conflict, is that right?

If the Old5R rule that a bowed character doesn't help win a battle is still true, then yes, the new Crane Stronghold does indeed help you win a Political conflict. As the stronghold can only be used during a conflict, and it outright bows a 2 Poli or less character, then I think we can safely infer that bowed characters don't add their strength to win conflicts in the new L5R as well.

Given what we know about the 7 launch clans mechanics in the OP. If FFG were to add Mantis and Spider in a future Deluxe Box (which I think is likely), what would be a summary of how their mechanics would likely work? As I didn't plat Old5R, I have no idea what they do.