3 hours ago, shosuko said:

1) Clan civil warfare. I would like to see this visited in a positive light - Who said the Clan Champion had to be from the main family of the clan? What if Kakita Yoshi just happened to gain more loyalty through the clan than the inexperienced Hotaru so they made him the Champion while she was just the Doji Daimyo? She might even accept it herself, considering it temporary until she is more experienced. Re-claiming the position as Champion can then occur where she needs to prove to others that she can take the job. This can give Hotaru more character building, as she is currently Clan Champion by default, not by merit and feels so herself. She can then earn the title back through her deeds as she grows in the story. It can also play to the changing strengths of the clans as each family has its own personality within the clan. This doesn't necessarily pose "winners / losers" situation, and maybe isn't a civil war type story, but it can show that the power is not always housed within the main family. What if a Daimyo of the Shosuro took up after Shoju passed on, rather than passing it to Kachiko? What if there isn't really a villain, but simply another very capable person who maybe is more charismatic or effective. The Bayushi are the more straightforward political / military family of the Scorpion clan. With a Bayushi Champion I would expect what we have now, which is a thriving political influence. If Shoju falls, and the Scorpion fall out of favor, the Shosuro could take over as Champion and guide the clan back to power with espionage and assassinations. Kachiko certainly wouldn't like it, but her brother may be able to gain influence on her since he is older and has actually lead his family where she simply married to power (regardless of how powerful she is.) The story can be her struggling with the failing reputation of the Scorpion clan, as the Shosuro Champion plays dirty with everyone, and Kachiko can take power back once she restores faith in the Bayushi and the political system.

2) I would like to see the Emperor as a more distant threat. I agree with Kinzen that the Emperor shouldn't have much real power, and be sorta at the mercy of which clans are powerful at the time. What makes Otosan Uchi so unique isn't that the Emperor rules from there, but that it is a single place where each clan's diplomats and politicians can travel to, reside, and interact at. I imagine the Emperor doesn't actually gain much in taxes as he doesn't really have the physical authority to go out and TAKE taxes from the clans. There are some they are able to tax, but I imagine most of it comes by way of gifts for favors. The clans present riches to the Emperor to buy his vote when it comes to political conflicts, or appointments. Who is the Emperor's Chancellor of the Exchequer? Considering the Scorpion have delivered great amounts of Koku, funded several parties, and stood up for the Emperor when the Crab general called him weak, it just might go to a high ranking Samurai of their clan (who's loyalty is definitely to the Scorpion, not the Emperor). There are tons of political appointments the Emperor can give out (and make up) to sell his power and maintain his position. As long as each clan has some buy-in to his power he can have the degree of their loyalty that he needs, which isn't really much. He only needs to keep the Imperial roads to Otosan Uchi safe for the travel of the nobles and secure their safety at the neutral zone.

The Imperial Army should be something that comes and goes. When an Emperor realizes they are too weak, and needs to gain some strength I could see them recruiting an Imperial Army and marching across Rokugan to pull all of the clans in tow again. They can also call conscription from the other clans, taking their best soldiers and sending them off on crazy expeditions that he knows they aren't likely to return from. In this way an Emperor who wanted to be strong could gain some stature, but it certainly shouldn't be the norm, but rather a "ruthless hantei" phase.

I hope the Hantei stay in power this time, and we simply get other positions like the Shogun, Emerald Champion, Jade Champion, Left and Right Chancellor, Chancellor of the Exchequer, ect In fact, I kinda hope the Role cards are part of this, and allow you to spend the Imperial Favor for some ability rather than its 1 MIL or POL.

To open,I like most of the ideas you put forward.?

The only thing I wanted to point out. Was that the emperor has as much power or influence as he feels like at any given time.

His "Divine Right" is a reality (being a fantasy?) not a notion.

In a traditionalist and conformist society that is nearly all he needs to maintain influence. The clans won't unite against him but they WILL turn on one another to court his influence and the "favor" of the Celestial Heavens he represents.

If he ordered ....say the Lion to TAKE taxes they could, and would.

On 5/1/2017 at 0:54 PM, Himoto said:

The problem is fundamentally, the Hantei and their vassals should have been a clan, too. The most powerful (not necessarily the largest) clan, founded by a kami like the others. Because, historically, that'S what a feudal king or emperor is - the most powerful (in terms of authority, not in terms of any particular type of power) feudal lord in a given area, to whom the other feudal lords (nominally, at least) owe their fealty.

A very interesting idea. With the Hantei 'clan' leading Rokugan, we are still left with many of the same issues regarding centralized power, but we are afforded an outlet for any clan to usurp that clan's power almost as readily as one clan fights another. This then sets the stage for constant warfare or political machination because authority is understood to be 'up for grabs'.

On 4/29/2017 at 8:01 PM, Eugene Earnshaw said:

I think the Gozoku thematically could represent a very compelling and powerful 'big bad' in an intra-clan civil war context: they are the embodiment of the everpresent faction within Rokugani society that puts family ahead of empire. Who obey their father before their lord, their daimyo before their champion, their champion before the emperor. If anything, this was the normal set of allegiances in historical feudal societies prior to the emergence of a class of professional bureacrats. This tendency of allegiance resists centralization and tries to replace central authority with figurehead monarchs whose power is limited to the capital. And half of Rokugan could probably get behind that.

While I think our interpretations of the Gozoku differ slightly, yes, it would have made for a great opposition to the Emperor/Ruling Body. The key distinction being loyalty to the Champion before the Emperor. A samurai can adhere to the chain of command in all forms, but a sure breaking point is between Champion and Emperor, between the familiar and the foreign, between clan and the empire as a whole... and sometimes between the empire and the emperor, as seen through the perception of the power players in Rokugan.

Actually, the institution of a Gozoku alliance might be the best avenue to creating consistent inter-clan warfare. The weakened authority of the Emperor would be understood. Lastly, the dissolution of the Gozoku would lead to a time of relative stability, which would be a solid lead in to a time jump.

1 hour ago, Kuni Katsuyoshi said:

To open,I like most of the ideas you put forward.?

The only thing I wanted to point out. Was that the emperor has as much power or influence as he feels like at any given time.

His "Divine Right" is a reality (being a fantasy?) not a notion.

In a traditionalist and conformist society that is nearly all he needs to maintain influence. The clans won't unite against him but they WILL turn on one another to court his influence and the "favor" of the Celestial Heavens he represents.

If he ordered ....say the Lion to TAKE taxes they could, and would.

All of the main lines have as close a line to an original Kami, and to Amatarasu as the Hantei do. Which Kami was the "ruler" was decided by a duel, and I see no reason any noble Samurai couldn't feel their line being just as deserving of command. The Phoenix specifically embody this with the Isawa being the ruling family within the clan, even though Shiba was the family originating from the Kami. It's not like Hantei is THE Hantei the way Togashi was THE Togashi. The descendants 1000 years later don't have any divine powers that allow them to strong arm anyone else.

Kinzen said it best by relating it to the power / authority of the Pope in feudal Europe. The Kings would seek the Pope's blessing in war, and try to curry favor. The Pope would confirm who was of Royal birth to be king. The Pope's words were God's will. This didn't mean the Pope could tell the King of England to collect taxes from the King of France for him. The Pope didn't actually collect much taxes at all - rather the Pope collected "offerings" at churches, and the kings would give offerings to gain the Pope's favor. They would also send troops to fight in the Crusades, and lend money to finance the Church's war.

It could even be that the Emperor has shrines set up across Rokugan to Amatarasu and Hantei which collect offerings that go to their family and help reinforce Kami worship through Rokugan and through every caste.

3 minutes ago, shosuko said:

All of the main lines have as close a line to an original Kami as the Hantei do. Which Kami was the "ruler" was decided by a duel, and I see no reason any noble Samurai couldn't feel their line being just as deserving of command. The Phoenix specifically embody this with the Isawa being the ruling family within the clan, even though Shiba was the family originating from the Kami. It's not like Hantei is THE Hantei the way Togashi was THE Togashi. The descendants 1000 years later don't have any divine powers that allow them to strong arm anyone else.

Kinzen said it best by relating it to the power / authority of the Pope in feudal Europe. The Kings would seek the Pope's blessing in war, and try to curry favor. The Pope would confirm who was of Royal birth to be king. The Pope's words were God's will. This didn't mean the Pope could tell the King of England to collect taxes from the King of France for him. The Pope didn't actually collect much taxes at all - rather the Pope collected "offerings" at churches, and the kings would give offerings to gain the Pope's favor. They would also send troops to fight in the Crusades, and lend money to finance the Church's war.

Except Hantei won the celestial tournament. HIS line is paramount.

I really don't see the relevance of a pope analogy. The cultures of Europe and Rokugan are VASTLY different. The emperor is the emperor. The champions rule HIS land in HIS name by HIS leave. If that wasn't the case the clans would have tossed Hantei XVI out on his crazy ***. They didn't because bushido and Rokugani culture don't allow for it.

I apologize if any of this comes off as snarky. I dont really mean it to be

31 minutes ago, Kuni Katsuyoshi said:

Except Hantei won the celestial tournament. HIS line is paramount.

I really don't see the relevance of a pope analogy. The cultures of Europe and Rokugan are VASTLY different. The emperor is the emperor. The champions rule HIS land in HIS name by HIS leave. If that wasn't the case the clans would have tossed Hantei XVI out on his crazy ***. They didn't because bushido and Rokugani culture don't allow for it.

I apologize if any of this comes off as snarky. I dont really mean it to be

Then why do the clans fight each other at all? If the Emperor says "we will have 1000 years of peace" and the clans actually obey, then why is anyone fighting? Why would the Emperor need the Crane as his left hand, and the Lion as his right, or the Scorpion as his under hand if there was some magical power that maintained his right to rule?

It's because the Emperor doesn't actually have any divine power, and is simply a figurehead. He has as much power as the clans together give him. They can turn against the Emperor, and in fact there is no divine protection in that role - as we have seen Shoju kill Hantei 38th like any other man, and Fu Leng was restored through Hantei 39th, and Toturi actually took the throne... With these occurrences I don't believe that Hantei's divine right to rule is any stronger than in our current world.

Surely there must be a reality behind this fiction that the Sun of the Heaven's word is law. The reason for the Pope analogy is because it may work better for westerners who are more familiar with that subject, but if it doesn't work for you then I appeal to the more direct analogy of the actual Emperor in Japan. Before Tokugawa actually unified Japan the Emperor was the direct line of heaven but collected little taxes as he had to give generous exemptions in order to maintain fealty from the lords which is really a way of saying he couldn't take the taxes, and they decided not to give it. In exchange for not making a big deal about it, the Emperor stayed the Emperor. Most of the Emperor's income was from gifts he would collect as a religious figurehead.

When Tokugawa did take power he was only able to tax all of the clans because he built a strong centralized government which had a large army to force taxation, but also means the clans couldn't have standing armies. The quandary we face is deciding if Rokugan is in the Tokugawa era where there is peace, a strong government, but - there is peace - the clans don't actually fight each other - or are we in the era before that were the Emperor is a figurehead, respected but each clan is more a nation unto its self. The Emperor can't actually tax and control everything, but his favor is still important because he is the head of their religion.

The only thing I've added to this is that the Emperor does maintain some right to rule and some amount of taxation by providing a capital city where the representatives of each clan can gather together to hash out their differences in words, not swords. This creates the centralized clan politics of Rokugan as Otosan Uchi serves as a sort of UN. The Emperor provides something real in this world by keeping the Emperor's roads and the capital city safe for travel and residence via Emerald Magistrates and by this he can collect a modest tax from the clans.

If an Emperor wants to go Tokugawa that would be great - the Emperor calling for a draft from the best soldiers of Rokugan and using them to hold his own war against every other clan to bring Rokugan to a stronger centralized rule. He can create an Imperial army and until his death Rokugan can be a place of peace. The Clans would all lose power during this time, and the game focuses on us playing the clans... so I think this would be a great story arc but that the primary setting should be the distant Emperor with the clans free to work their wars and politics.

1 minute ago, shosuko said:

Then why do the clans fight each other at all? If the Emperor says "we will have 1000 years of peace" and the clans actually obey, then why is anyone fighting? Why would the Emperor need the Crane as his left hand, and the Lion as his right, or the Scorpion as his under hand if there was some magical power that maintained his right to rule?

It's because the Emperor doesn't actually have any divine power, and is simply a figurehead. He has as much power as the clans together give him. They can turn against the Emperor, and in fact there is no divine protection in that role - as we have seen Shoju kill Hantei 38th like any other man, and Fu Leng was restored through Hantei 39th, and Toturi actually took the throne... With these occurrences I don't believe that Hantei's divine right to rule is any stronger than in our current world.

Surely there must be a reality behind this fiction that the Sun of the Heaven's word is law. The reason for the Pope analogy is because it may work better for westerners who are more familiar with that subject, but if it doesn't work for you then I appeal to the more direct analogy of the actual Emperor in Japan. Before Tokugawa actually unified Japan the Emperor was the direct line of heaven but collected little taxes as he had to give generous exemptions in order to maintain fealty from the lords which is really a way of saying he couldn't take the taxes, and they decided not to give it. In exchange for not making a big deal about it, the Emperor stayed the Emperor. Most of the Emperor's income was from gifts he would collect as a religious figurehead.

When Tokugawa did take power he was only able to tax all of the clans because he built a strong centralized government which had a large army to force taxation, but also means the clans couldn't have standing armies. The quandary we face is deciding if Rokugan is in the Tokugawa era where there is peace, a strong government, but - there is peace - the clans don't actually fight each other - or are we in the era before that were the Emperor is a figurehead, respected but each clan is more a nation unto its self. The Emperor can't actually tax and control everything, but his favor is still important because he is the head of their religion.

The only thing I've added to this is that the Emperor does maintain some right to rule and some amount of taxation by providing a capital city where the representatives of each clan can gather together to has out their differences in words, not swords. This creates the centralized clan politics of Rokugan as Otosan Uchi serves as a sort of UN. The Emperor provides something real in this world by keeping the Emperor's roads and the capital city safe for travel and residence via Emerald Magistrates and by this he can collect a modest tax from the clans.

If an Emperor wants to go Tokugawa that would be great - the Emperor calling for a draft from the best soldiers of Rokugan and using them to hold his own war against every other clan to bring Rokugan to a stronger centralized rule. He can create an Imperial army and until his death Rokugan can be a place of peace. The Clans would all lose power during this time, and the game focuses on us playing the clans... so I think this would be a great story arc but that the primary setting should be the distant Emperor with the clans free to work their wars and politics.

I agree that the emperor should be a distant authority.

The clans fight each other because they're warriors in a warrior culture. The emperor understands this, and allows it because it helps him maintain authority. Plus remeber 'total war' between clans is forbidden by imperial decree. Since that decree (the Yasuki Break) No one has broken it. If that is not an example of his authority, I dont know what is.

If you want to run somerhing more Tokugawa in your games, go for it. It could be most awesome,and I'd happily sling dice with you.

Thats just not the Rokugan described in published material.

To borrow a phrase from American Constitutional Law I'm a 'Strict Constructionist' when it comes to Rokugan. (AKA a fussy stickler for What's Written)

22 minutes ago, Kuni Katsuyoshi said:

I agree that the emperor should be a distant authority.

The clans fight each other because they're warriors in a warrior culture. The emperor understands this, and allows it because it helps him maintain authority. Plus remeber 'total war' between clans is forbidden by imperial decree. Since that decree (the Yasuki Break) No one has broken it. If that is not an example of his authority, I dont know what is.

If you want to run somerhing more Tokugawa in your games, go for it. It could be most awesome,and I'd happily sling dice with you.

Thats just not the Rokugan described in published material.

To borrow a phrase from American Constitutional Law I'm a 'Strict Constructionist' when it comes to Rokugan. (AKA a fussy stickler for What's Written)

That just doesn't hold up to scrutiny though. You can say "the writers wrote thusly" if you want, but that just means you accept an inconsistent world... The point of discussing these things is partly to call the writers out on areas they need to improve on because they don't actually make sense. Warriors don't fight just to fight. They fight to achieve something. What do you imagine they achieve?

It can't simply be Glory - since Koku comes from Rice and the Emperor's word yields no physical bounty. There is either an outside enemy they fight, or they have always been at war with each other and the 1000 years of peace is just a phrase that everyone talks around, like our "war on drugs" or "war on terror." We're in a thousand years of peace - the Lion sacking Toshi Ranbo in open field warfare in the Lion fiction isn't "war" it's just... a battle that's been raging on for a hundred years between two bitter rivals...

Try imagining that the fictions are written by historians, and subject to embellishment or false recollection... Here is the truth behind 1000 years of "peace."

http://l5r.wikia.com/wiki/Toshi_Ranbo_wo_Shien_Shite_Reigisaho

Quote

In 437 the Akodo family created Toshi Ranbo as the northernmost holding along the shared Lion-Crane border, near the Kintani Valley. It was intended as headquarters to coordinate the Akodo military efforts against the Crane. The fortified keep and a series of outbuildings were recorded with the name of Toshi Ranbo in the Imperial Histories, while the Ikoma Histories made reference to Kita no Yosa, Northern Fortress.

In 598 the city was assaulted by the Crane who held it for eight days. The Lion began fortifying the city heavily. The next Crane assault, in the year 600, failed, with the Crane suffering heavy losses. However, a subsequent Lion offensive in the year 601, directed at the Kintani Valley, was driven back by the Crane. For five centuries, the city was fought over by the Lion Clan and the Crane Clan. The common folk had been forced to do what they could to survive in a city frequently consumed by war. As a result, the city was riddled with hidden rooms and escape tunnels, where refugees from the current regime could hide until friendly forces ruled again.

38 minutes ago, shosuko said:

That just doesn't hold up to scrutiny though. You can say "the writers wrote thusly" if you want, but that just means you accept an inconsistent world... The point of discussing these things is partly to call the writers out on areas they need to improve on because they don't actually make sense. Warriors don't fight just to fight. They fight to achieve something. What do you imagine they achieve?

It can't simply be Glory - since Koku comes from Rice and the Emperor's word yields no physical bounty. There is either an outside enemy they fight, or they have always been at war with each other and the 1000 years of peace is just a phrase that everyone talks around, like our "war on drugs" or "war on terror." We're in a thousand years of peace - the Lion sacking Toshi Ranbo in open field warfare in the Lion fiction isn't "war" it's just... a battle that's been raging on for a hundred years between two bitter rivals...

Try imagining that the fictions are written by historians, and subject to embellishment or false recollection... Here is the truth behind 1000 years of "peace."

http://l5r.wikia.com/wiki/Toshi_Ranbo_wo_Shien_Shite_Reigisaho

The 1kyrs of peace is, was, and was always intended to be a misnomer.

As to concrete gain, and touching the 'lion question'

There is no Year by Year history of Rokugan.

We have no Idea how many batttle the Lion fought, how much territory/material they took, or how long they kept it.

For all we really know, the Lion/Crane border 'today' is MUCH different than 5,/ 20,/100 years ago.

As samurai, honor and glory ARE enough reason for a fight.

59 minutes ago, Kuni Katsuyoshi said:

... remeber 'total war' between clans is forbidden by imperial decree. Since that decree (the Yasuki Break) No one has broken it. If that is not an example of his authority, I dont know what is...

19 minutes ago, Kuni Katsuyoshi said:

The 1kyrs of peace is, was, and was always intended to be a misnomer.

So... which is it? Are you saying the Emperor said "there will be peace" and there was peace thus proving the Emperor has some godly authority over the clans of Rokugan? Or the Emperor said "there will be peace" and the clans didn't actually care much about that, because the Emperor has little real authority, and is really just a figurehead for the religion of ancestor and Kami worship?

Just now, shosuko said:

So... which is it? Are you saying the Emperor said "there will be peace" and there was peace thus proving the Emperor has some godly authority over the clans of Rokugan? Or the Emperor said "there will be peace" and the clans didn't actually care much about that, because the Emperor has little real authority, and is really just a figurehead for the religion of ancestor and Kami worship?

He never said 'there will be peace'. He said 'Full scale clan warfare is forbidden'

26 minutes ago, Kuni Katsuyoshi said:

He never said 'there will be peace'. He said 'Full scale clan warfare is forbidden'

Yeah - that is a line of BS. The Emperor doesn't have the power. He can say "war is forbidden" and the Lion are like "Sure, 'total war' is forbidden" and the Crane are like "Yay, Emperor is mighty lol jk" and then they continue fighting just as they had before, and they just don't call it "total war." That is exactly what happened, and it is a clear example of how little power the Emperor has.

Being direct lineage from the Kami doesn't mean as much as you want to think it means, or as much as some writers say it means. Just as Honor and Bushido aren't unbreakable commandments. Just because Hantei won the duel doesn't mean he was the most powerful Kami there, and everyone knows that. Each clan contains a direct lineage from Amatarasu just as direct as the Emperor - further proof the Emperor has little power is that 1) Shoju killed him, 2) Fu Leng came back through his line, 3) Toturi became Emperor instead, cutting off the whole "hantei has divine rule" thing entirely... and then how do you explain HIS authority...

3 hours ago, Kuni Katsuyoshi said:

His "Divine Right" is a reality (being a fantasy?) not a notion.

A final nail in the coffin for "divine right" is the fact that, while being the son of heaven, he actually has no power from it. No Shugenja derives their power from the Emperor on the throne - they derive their power from elemental kami all around us, and that is the power everyone sees. Just because magic exists from kami doesn't mean the Son of Heaven benefits from it. The Emperor isn't a Shugenja. So much for "divine right is a reality," when a novice Shugenja can interact with the "divine" more than him.

Edit: Actually the final nail in the coffin was that part up there... What about Toturi - who doesn't have Divine Right - what keeps him in power?

11 minutes ago, shosuko said:

Yeah - that is a line of BS. The Emperor doesn't have the power. He can say "war is forbidden" and the Lion are like "Sure, 'total war' is forbidden" and the Crane are like "Yay, Emperor is mighty lol jk" and then they continue fighting just as they had before, and they just don't call it "total war." That is exactly what happened, and it is a clear example of how little power the Emperor has.

Being direct lineage from the Kami doesn't mean as much as you want to think it means, or as much as some writers say it means. Just as Honor and Bushido aren't unbreakable commandments. Just because Hantei won the duel doesn't mean he was the most powerful Kami there, and everyone knows that. Each clan contains a direct lineage from Amatarasu just as direct as the Emperor - further proof the Emperor has little power is that 1) Shoju killed him, 2) Fu Leng came back through his line, 3) Toturi became Emperor instead, cutting off the whole "hantei has divine rule" thing entirely... and then how do you explain HIS authority...

A final nail in the coffin for "divine right" is the fact that, while being the son of heaven, he actually has no power from it. No Shugenja derives their power from the Emperor on the throne - they derive their power from elemental kami all around us, and that is the power everyone sees. Just because magic exists from kami doesn't mean the Son of Heaven benefits from it. The Emperor isn't a Shugenja. So much for "divine right is a reality," when a novice Shugenja can interact with the "divine" more than him.

The emperor can name new fortunes. He decrees, the Heavens listen.

The Lion have FOUR full armies, the Crane have two. There was never 'total war' between them.

I'm not saying Hantei is 'divine', but his authority IS regocnized by Tengoku. When Toturi ascended, Amaterasu recognized his rule.

4 minutes ago, Kuni Katsuyoshi said:

The emperor can name new fortunes. He decrees, the Heavens listen.

The Lion have FOUR full armies, the Crane have two. There was never 'total war' between them.

I'm not saying Hantei is 'divine', but his authority IS regocnized by Tengoku. When Toturi ascended, Amaterasu recognized his rule.

Sure bro - the reason the Lion attacked Toshi Ranbo and lost, and Arasou died was because they willingly didn't take enough troops... Sure thing kid...

The Emperor can name new fortunes - sure he can. Only the fortunes are rarely a source of power. It's the kami that the Shugenja derive their power from. Is the Emperor a Shugenja? Sure thing... heavens listen... yeah whatever... lets have a magic duel between the Emperor and a level 1 Isawa fire Shugenja. Who's gonna win? lol

I think you miss the point of this thread - which is that there are certain things that have been a part of L5R lore that just don't make sense and create a fractured and inconsistent fiction. You can't point to the inconsistencies and say it works just because a writer said it did...

2 hours ago, shosuko said:

Before Tokugawa actually unified Japan the Emperor was the direct line of heaven but collected little taxes as he had to give generous exemptions in order to maintain fealty from the lords which is really a way of saying he couldn't take the taxes, and they decided not to give it. In exchange for not making a big deal about it, the Emperor stayed the Emperor. Most of the Emperor's income was from gifts he would collect as a religious figurehead

I think this is the way the setting should go. An Emperor strong as a religious figurehead, well respected and beloved by the common people and samurai, but being manipulated by major clans for favor and power. With weak Emperors being almost replaced by a Shogun-like figure (where "almost" is the key, as the Emperor is still too sacred for the population to be replaced), and strong Emperor using inter-clans warfare to their advantage to maintain control.

This should give writers enough flexibility to drive the narrative without having to always justify warfare as jingoku inteference/evil plans from the supervillain.

16 minutes ago, shosuko said:

Sure bro - the reason the Lion attacked Toshi Ranbo and lost, and Arasou died was because they willingly didn't take enough troops... Sure thing kid...

The Emperor can name new fortunes - sure he can. Only the fortunes are rarely a source of power. It's the kami that the Shugenja derive their power from. Is the Emperor a Shugenja? Sure thing... heavens listen... yeah whatever... lets have a magic duel between the Emperor and a level 1 Isawa fire Shugenja. Who's gonna win? lol

I think you miss the point of this thread - which is that there are certain things that have been a part of L5R lore that just don't make sense and create a fractured and inconsistent fiction. You can't point to the inconsistencies and say it works just because a writer said it did...

Yikes

2 hours ago, Kuni Katsuyoshi said:

Except Hantei won the celestial tournament. HIS line is paramount.

I really don't see the relevance of a pope analogy. The cultures of Europe and Rokugan are VASTLY different. The emperor is the emperor. The champions rule HIS land in HIS name by HIS leave. If that wasn't the case the clans would have tossed Hantei XVI out on his crazy ***. They didn't because bushido and Rokugani culture don't allow for it.

As shosuko and others have said, the point of the Pope analogy is not to say "this is what Rokugan's like" (because you're right, it isn't), but rather "this is one of the ways you could tweak what we've been presented with to make it more logically consistent." Rokugan-as-written has a problem where both of the following are apparently true: 1) the Emperor has meaningful power over the clans because divine ancestry/imperial bureaucracy/etc and 2) the clans fight one another all the time even though that's bad for imperial business. You can solve that by saying the Emperor is more like the medieval European pope or the actual historical Japanese emperor, which means you're revising #1; or you can solve it by saying there really has been a thousand years of more-or-less consistent peace because the Emperor has the capability to make the clans fall in line, which means you're revising #2. The former is the easier fix, in terms of posing less disruption to the setting as described. But if you keep both #1 and #2, it fails the historical/anthropological/political science sniff test, because it just doesn't stand up to scrutiny -- not even with magic and religion factored in.

2 hours ago, Kuni Katsuyoshi said:

Except Hantei won the celestial tournament. HIS line is paramount.

I really don't see the relevance of a pope analogy. The cultures of Europe and Rokugan are VASTLY different. The emperor is the emperor. The champions rule HIS land in HIS name by HIS leave. If that wasn't the case the clans would have tossed Hantei XVI out on his crazy ***. They didn't because bushido and Rokugani culture don't allow for it.

I apologize if any of this comes off as snarky. I dont really mean it to be

This is also a point of the discussion. If the Lion has so many troops and are so great at tactics - why don't the Lion just march over the Crane and over the Hantei as well? Why is Rokugan not a map of just Lion lands. Just like the Emperor has a conflicting representation in the story, the Lion and their military do too.

The reasons I think can be laid out in the story as to why the Lion haven't taken over everything are:

1) They are surrounded. If they move too heavy on one border they can be attacked on another.

2) The Emperor gives them concessions to appease their forces, such as tax reprieve for pulling out of another clan's territory. Maybe other clan courtiers play their politics and undo this reprieve after the fact, but not always.

3) The map isn't really linear borders deciding each clan's lands, but more like dots where there are fortifications and the area they can reasonably control. There is a gray area between these where light war can be fought to capture the harvests of these peasants villages. No one is burning farms because they are fighting over the harvest, but each year it may go to a different clan. Minor clans also exist like this, in the areas between clans. This is how Toshi Ranbo got built, it was a fortification to provide the Lion a stronger garrison to control the fields around that area. It backfired when they lost it to Crane. It turned out to be too close to the Crane for the Lion to properly defend, so it was constantly under attack. Its gone back and forth between the clans several times.

I apologize if any of this comes off as snarky. I dont really mean it to be

40 minutes ago, Kinzen said:

As shosuko and others have said, the point of the Pope analogy is not to say "this is what Rokugan's like" (because you're right, it isn't), but rather "this is one of the ways you could tweak what we've been presented with to make it more logically consistent." Rokugan-as-written has a problem where both of the following are apparently true: 1) the Emperor has meaningful power over the clans because divine ancestry/imperial bureaucracy/etc and 2) the clans fight one another all the time even though that's bad for imperial business. You can solve that by saying the Emperor is more like the medieval European pope or the actual historical Japanese emperor, which means you're revising #1; or you can solve it by saying there really has been a thousand years of more-or-less consistent peace because the Emperor has the capability to make the clans fall in line, which means you're revising #2. The former is the easier fix, in terms of posing less disruption to the setting as described. But if you keep both #1 and #2, it fails the historical/anthropological/political science sniff test, because it just doesn't stand up to scrutiny -- not even with magic and religion factored in.

I DO see what you are saying, but I thought the setting answered this point.

It's not bad for imperial business for continual clan feuding. It leavs the emperor as THE neutral authority, allowing him to shape things as he wishes. I doubt wealth matters as much to the emperor as power, and clan squabbles just give him more.

As an addendum; Isn't this what the Otomo family is all about?

50 minutes ago, shosuko said:

This is also a point of the discussion. If the Lion has so many troops and are so great at tactics - why don't the Lion just march over the Crane and over the Hantei as well? Why is Rokugan not a map of just Lion lands. Just like the Emperor has a conflicting representation in the story, the Lion and their military do too.

The reasons I think can be laid out in the story as to why the Lion haven't taken over everything are:

1) They are surrounded. If they move too heavy on one border they can be attacked on another.

2) The Emperor gives them concessions to appease their forces, such as tax reprieve for pulling out of another clan's territory. Maybe other clan courtiers play their politics and undo this reprieve after the fact, but not always.

3) The map isn't really linear borders deciding each clan's lands, but more like dots where there are fortifications and the area they can reasonably control. There is a gray area between these where light war can be fought to capture the harvests of these peasants villages. No one is burning farms because they are fighting over the harvest, but each year it may go to a different clan. Minor clans also exist like this, in the areas between clans. This is how Toshi Ranbo got built, it was a fortification to provide the Lion a stronger garrison to control the fields around that area. It backfired when they lost it to Crane. It turned out to be too close to the Crane for the Lion to properly defend, so it was constantly under attack. Its gone back and forth between the clans several times.

I apologize if any of this comes off as snarky. I dont really mean it to be

1 yes

2 The are 'left hand' his bully boys. the make the bulk of the Imperial Legions. There is much prestige in that on top of your ideas of other 'favors' So, again I agree with your interpretation

3. agreed again.

I guess the reason I don't give much thought to a 'Lion inconsitency' is that they are supposed to be the 'bushido' clan the 'honor clan', and to attack the emperor or defy his 'express' command is THE extreme violation of both.

I'm re-reading Clavell's "Shogun" in preparation for the game, and I think that the situation described there suits perfectly Rokugan and the inter-clan war explanation. Both sides in the civil war claim that are figthing for the Emperor (a child, in this case), both "champions" have convinced their followers that honor and duty are on their side (if they really believe it themselves is irrelevant).

Lion is the mighty army with the genious generals, but cannot fight against everybody else at the same time. They wage war against the Crane for a town that both consider legally theirs, and the only reason why the Emperor does not intervene is because there is no threat to his power in this conflict, nor any clan risks total annihilation (that would create inbalance in the Empire and therefore chaos). Could the Lion use all their armies in the conflict? Maybe, but risking some other clan to take advantage of it, or attracting too much the Emperor's attention.

1 hour ago, Kuni Katsuyoshi said:

1 yes

2 The are 'left hand' his bully boys. the make the bulk of the Imperial Legions. There is much prestige in that So, again I agree with your interpretation

3. agreed again.

I guess the reason I don't give much thought to a 'Lion inconsitency' is that they are supposed to be the 'bushido' clan the 'honor clan', and to attack the emperor or defy his 'express' command is THE extreme violation of both.

Which is it then? Do the Lion not take over all of the land because it's the Emperor's word? Or is it because they are surrounded? If you try to say it is both, then I would argue that when we have a simple answer, and a complex answer, the simple answer is typically the most accurate. Are the Crane more afraid of the Emperor saying the Lion are free to attack them (even though they've been fighting over Toshi Ranbo for over 500 years,) or that the Unicorn clan may ally with the Lion giving them both a free border and reinforcements?

If the Emperor is giving concessions to the Lion, that shows a lack of power in the Emperor as it isn't just the imperial decree, it is a bargain. One that the Lion can pull every year... Who is really in power? The Emperor who allows the Lion to not pay taxes or the Lion for letting the Emperor say he's in charge when they refuse to pay?

I mean - Bushido and Honor are great - but then you need some outside villain because everyone in the Empire is colored noble and there is no reason to fight each other if that is the case. Bushido and Honor can't be held as law if we're to have more gray areas in conflict, and fighting between clans. I mean, the game is literally about war between clans. Honor is a mechanic as far as it can get you ahead, hence why even Lion clan cards can have a low Glory stat.

The Emperor's frail position can be seen simply in the Lion being the Left Hand - are they his army? Or do they say they are his army to empower themselves within his narrative? Same with the Crane and the Scorpion. Are they actually serving the Emperor? Or are they making themselves important as part of the Imperial power structure? Having all of the clans buy-in to the Emperor is part of his power, but that means that his power only comes from the clans - not the heavens or divine mandate but simply because the clans give it. That brings us back to the Pope analogy... His power is symbolic, only as strong as it is exploited by the bickering politicians around him. They could collectively decide to ignore the Emperor and solve everything between themselves just as easily, but they each have their own advantages in feeding into the Imperial narrative. Basically its because they've made it work for them, but not because Hantei is a god-child.

2 hours ago, shosuko said:

Which is it then? Do the Lion not take over all of the land because it's the Emperor's word? Or is it because they are surrounded? If you try to say it is both, then I would argue that when we have a simple answer, and a complex answer, the simple answer is typically the most accurate. Are the Crane more afraid of the Emperor saying the Lion are free to attack them, or that the Unicorn clan may ally with the Lion giving them both a free border and reinforcements?

If the Emperor is giving concessions to the Lion, that shows a lack of power in the Emperor as it isn't just the imperial decree, it is a bargain. One that the Lion can pull every year... Who is really in power? The Emperor who allows the Lion to not pay taxes or the Lion for letting the Emperor say he's in charge when they refuse to pay?

I mean - Bushido and Honor are great - but then you need some outside villain because everyone in the Empire is colored noble and there is no reason to fight each other if that is the case. Bushido and Honor can't be held as law if we're to have more gray areas in conflict, and fighting between clans. I mean, the game is literally about war between clans. Honor is a mechanic as far as it can get you ahead, hence why even Lion clan cards can have a low Glory stat.

The Emperor's frail position can be seen simply in the Lion being the Left Hand - are they his army? Or do they say they are his army to empower themselves within his narrative? Same with the Crane and the Scorpion. Are they actually serving the Emperor? Or are they making themselves important as part of the Imperial power structure? Having all of the clans buy-in to the Emperor is part of his power, but that means that his power only comes from the clans - not the heavens or divine mandate but simply because the clans give it. That brings us back to the Pope analogy... His power is symbolic, only as strong as it is exploited by the bickering politicians around him. If any of them decided they could jump over the Imperial narrative successfully they would, but the religion of the people includes the figurehead so hes not likely to be completely deposed, even though he can be rendered powerless.

Two 'noble' 'honorable' clans can fight without an outside stressor. Just ask the Lion or Crane.

I can't refute your logic on most of your other points, so I won't try.

I misread what what you meant on previous points 1 and 2 ...mea culpa

It's a little bit of one and a little bit of three

I'm curious as to what you think of the role Rokugani culture plays in what we have been tossing around.

Kemono no Souja's world had an interesting setup with kind of "Imperial" family and "Lion-like" military dukedom. The "power of imperials is symbolic" dilemma is central to the plot.

Also, a lot of this is ignoring the following canonical pieces of lore:

1) Imperial Limits on the Sizes of Armies - The Great Clans, since the time of the breaking of the Gozoku Alliance, had strict limits on the sizes of their armies. While the Lion Clan could field four full sized armies, the size of those armies were very much restricted by Imperial law. Likewise, weaponry and military technology were also limited by Imperial law. This restriction is lifted during / after the Clan War, and should be noted as possibly one of the main reasons the 12th Century of Rokugan should be viewed as very much a Warring States period, interrupted by several foreign invasions.

2) The Imperial Legions - The Imperial Bureaucracy maintained 12 full-sized armies (supported through taxation and bureaucracy), which it could use at its own disposal. They were under the command of the Emerald Champion, paid for by Imperial taxes, collected by Imperial magistrates, and was composed of both Seppun and Great Clan samurai. The 12 armies granted the Emperor the ability to directly intervene in military conflicts, and there are several canonical circumstances in the pre-Clan War lore where that was what he did with them.

3) Great Clans were allowed to engage freely in limited wars, but not full-scale wars. No one was allowed, legally, to seek the annihilation or utter conquest of another Great Clan. Wars over border territories were expected, and wars over honor were orchestrated and encouraged by the Otomo family.

Imperial law gave the Emperor the ability to declare any action even a Great Clan Champion took as criminal. Imperial Legions gave the Emperor the ability to directly enforce his decisions militarily. Religious authority gave the Emperor the divine right to maintain these powers, backed by a SIZABLE peasant population who, ultimately, were a commodity to be traded between Great Clans.

In many ways, the "1000 Years of Peace" only existed for the peasants. Save for bandits and a few peasant revolts, most of their time in Rokugan was peaceful. It did not matter to the 100 bonge to each samurai what color of clothes their lord was wearing. They still needed to get out into the field and plant rice.

L5R lore is incoherent. There is nothing surprising about this. There's nothing bad about it either.

Flavour text from games, especially from CCGs, is almost always going to be incoherent because its purpose is to set the flavour of a game rather than to be the written history of a civilisation. Sometimes it suits the game for the Emperor to have armies and the land to be united under his rule, sometimes it suits the game for the Emperor to be a weak puppet whilst warlords plot against one another.

This is aggravated in L5R's case because its flavour text has accumulated from many pens over many years, each with their own fictional slant.

Most importantly, there cannot be a coherent description of Rokugan because there is no Rokugan. It is not fiction about a place - it's just fiction. There aren't any shared objective facts that have guided the different writers and artists. Each one is guided only by the fiction that others have written before, and the need to be flavourful is always more important than the need to be coherent.

Some people, like shosuko (above), have found parts of this body of fiction that they like, and are engaged in trying to make the rest coherent around it. Other people, like Kuni Kuniyoshi, are engaged in memorising the fiction as if it's coherent. These are both entirely valid approaches, because in the end both are the same: they're ways of engaging with a body of fiction, each of which adds more fiction to it.