If the authors decide to make their own storyline, I just hope it won't be just an ASoIaF clone, which is all the craze in recent years, with the Scorpion in place of the Lannister, the Crab in place of the Night's Watch etc. That would be a gross oversimplification. They'd better come up with something original.

42 minutes ago, Serazu said:

If the authors decide to make their own storyline, I just hope it won't be just an ASoIaF clone

I'm fairly sure that L5R is supposed to be an ASoIaF "clone" in a way that Rokugan is almost the exact same place as Westeros, but with samurai and not knights.

10 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

I'm fairly sure that L5R is supposed to be an ASoIaF "clone" in a way that Rokugan is almost the exact same place as Westeros, but with samurai and not knights.

L5R - killing main characters en masse before most people ever heard of A Game of Thrones.

8 minutes ago, BCumming said:

L5R - killing main characters en masse before most people ever heard of A Game of Thrones.

ASoIaF actually predates L5R by something, like, 3 or 4 years.

Just now, AtoMaki said:

ASoIaF actually predates L5R by something, like, 3 or 4 years.

As an idea, perhaps. They were published around the same time, which is why I said most people.

10 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

ASoIaF actually predates L5R by something, like, 3 or 4 years.

A Game of Thrones was published in August 1996.

Imperial Edition went on sale in October 1995.

I wouldn't say that L5R inspired Martin, who was mostly inspired by actual history. On the other hand, it's definite that L5R was inspired by the Greek Mythology (the fall of the Kami to Rokugan), while the whole Wall and Jigoku aspect was modelled after Warhammer and its Chaos legacy (which, in turn, was a shameless copy/paste from Moorcock's Stormbringer).

40 minutes ago, Yoritomo Reiu said:

A Game of Thrones was published in August 1996.

Imperial Edition went on sale in October 1995.

The first chapters of TGoT were out as soon as 1991.

And I don't say that L5R copied ASoIaF, only that they are the products of the same... howchacallit... creative spirit. You have the Iron Curtain big wall shielding the NATO alliance of good guys from the Soviet Union hordes of evil with the nuclear holocaust big endtime event impending on the horizon with the good guys being divided and all that stuff. It is, like, generic Generation X power fantasy with all its charm and trappings.

9 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

The first chapters of TGoT were out as soon as 1991.

And I don't say that L5R copied ASoIaF, only that they are the products of the same... howchacallit... creative spirit. You have the Iron Curtain big wall shielding the NATO alliance of good guys from the Soviet Union hordes of evil with the nuclear holocaust big endtime event impending on the horizon with the good guys being divided and all that stuff. It is, like, generic Generation X power fantasy with all its charm and trappings.

Interesting, though I personally think that the Wall was modelled after Hadrian's Wall, whereas the Stark/Lannister enmity in inspired by the York/Lancaster clash in the War of the Roses. Heck, not only do the names look alike, but even the colors match: the white (York/Stark) vs the red (Lancaster/Lannister) rose.

8 minutes ago, Serazu said:

the Stark/Lannister enmity in inspired by the York/Lancaster clash in the War of the Roses.

It is the classic French/Germany enmity. The soft guys with a touch for conspiracy (French/Lannister/Crane) opposing the tough-rough militaristic guys (Germany/Stark/Lion). Oh, and the French are always ungrateful, arrogant jerks because Charles de Gaulle left a deep scar in the US psyche. And the Germans always have a honor-before-reason thing because Bismarck and the Prussian traditions are regarded as the "real" Germany in the US (oh, and the Germans always have some sort of edgy extreme internal opposition like the Boltons or Matsu Tsuko because 'muh nazis').

You gravitate too much towards contemporary politics in analyzing his epic.

I'll stick with medieval history.

1 minute ago, Serazu said:

You gravitate too much towards contemporary politics in analyzing his epic.

He lived in these contemporary politics. The WW3 hype (with all its realpolitik) for Generation X was absolutely bonkers, that's why they centered their dream worlds around it. There is a psychological study about it somewhere on the internetz.

1 hour ago, AtoMaki said:

The first chapters of TGoT were out as soon as 1991.

And I don't say that L5R copied ASoIaF, only that they are the products of the same... howchacallit... creative spirit. You have the Iron Curtain big wall shielding the NATO alliance of good guys from the Soviet Union hordes of evil with the nuclear holocaust big endtime event impending on the horizon with the good guys being divided and all that stuff. It is, like, generic Generation X power fantasy with all its charm and trappings.

The Crab wall was surely inspired by the Great Wall of China, rather than anything else.

22 minutes ago, Tonbo Karasu said:

The Crab wall was surely inspired by the Great Wall of China, rather than anything else.

Only aesthetically. Other than that, the Kaiu Wall has nothing in common with the Great Wall. But yeah, if you want a big wall in your japanese/oriental fantasy world, then you gotta make it into the Great Wall. There aren't many other options left to be honest.

...

I question any analysis that equates the good guys' defensive walls with the Iron Curtain in a Generation X mindset.

19 minutes ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

I question any analysis that equates the good guys' defensive walls with the Iron Curtain in a Generation X mindset.

Well, a shared trait of these walls is that they are kinda shameful, aren't respected by the good guys at all, and are staffed by some sort of exiles/outcasts.

Yeah, but the Iron Curtain (and its physical avatars, such as the Berlin Wall) were created, staffed and maintained by the people these narrative walls would, in that analysis, be keeping out.

The dominant rhetoric these Gen X writers were suffused with would not present those barriers as a Good Thing, but rather as a tool of the rhetorical adversary.

12 minutes ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

Yeah, but the Iron Curtain (and its physical avatars, such as the Berlin Wall) were created, staffed and maintained by the people these narrative walls would, in that analysis, be keeping out.

Yeah, there is a reason why one of the first things people learnt about the Crab Clan back in the good old days was that they had a lot in common with the Shadowlands. The same also stands for the Night Watch / Wildlings (and to a lesser extent, the Others).

I can only imagine the sh*tstorm following an imaginary comparison between the defenders of the Great Wall and the mongols they were keeping out. The Chinese would boil the Sea of Japan with their rage (especially if their newest Great Wall movie is any measure).

As I recall, the Seven Clans were originally inspired thusly:

Crab: Samurai as they approximately were, little regard for honor or glory in comparison to surviving
Crane: Samurai as interpreted by anime
Dragon: Wuxia monks
Lion: Samurai as the west saw them
Phoenix: The Three Winds from Big Trouble in Little China
Scorpion: Kaede from Ran
Unicorn: Chinese cavalry

Everything extrapolated out from there.

The Gen X connection is an interesting one. I've wondered why the basic structure of the worlds was so similar when the timing didn't make sense for one to have copied the other. It would also make sense that this type of Cold War story would resonate with my generation. I wonder how the story will morph when it's being written by and for Millennials.

Can you PM me some articles?

1 hour ago, SirEuain said:

Phoenix: The Three Winds from Big Trouble in Little China

Especially this guy:

This is my favorite topic I have found in this forum! I love reading the comparisons and the opinions. The historical events and extrapolations.

This has been the best. I am sad to see it ended before I really got to join in.

On 4/24/2017 at 0:37 PM, Yoritomo Reiu said:

1. Conflict Between the Rokugani Political System and Player Wants

2. Unwavering Loyalty

3. No True Winners/Losers

You bring up some really good points and lots of people have expanded on these better than I could. But I can share some personal hopes.

1- Conflict works best with heroes and villains. I have shared my opinion on other threads about Hitomi and Yakumo. When I first started playing Dragon, I did not know much, but I did know that the Crab were bad guys. I played for months before I learned that Yakumo became a great hero. Let each clan have heroes and villains and we will gladly fight each other.

2- Unwavering Loyalty is nice in children and bodyguards. But villains need not be loyal and a good story needs villains. Loyalty can also breed zealots which also make good villains.

But I think more fun could be played with the Shogun idea. What if the Emporer were to be attacked and killed? What if he had three children each taken by a different clan. Each power fighting to be Shogun. Allies giving support for one heir then trying to steal them away with force or gifts. A divided empire with different Emporers.

3- Victories should be fleeting and losses should be carried in scars, and occasionally burning craters where homes once stood.

1) Clan civil warfare. I would like to see this visited in a positive light - Who said the Clan Champion had to be from the main family of the clan? What if Kakita Yoshi just happened to gain more loyalty through the clan than the inexperienced Hotaru so they made him the Champion while she was just the Doji Daimyo? She might even accept it herself, considering it temporary until she is more experienced. Re-claiming the position as Champion can then occur where she needs to prove to others that she can take the job. This can give Hotaru more character building, as she is currently Clan Champion by default, not by merit and feels so herself. She can then earn the title back through her deeds as she grows in the story. It can also play to the changing strengths of the clans as each family has its own personality within the clan. This doesn't necessarily pose "winners / losers" situation, and maybe isn't a civil war type story, but it can show that the power is not always housed within the main family. What if a Daimyo of the Shosuro took up after Shoju passed on, rather than passing it to Kachiko? What if there isn't really a villain, but simply another very capable person who maybe is more charismatic or effective. The Bayushi are the more straightforward political / military family of the Scorpion clan. With a Bayushi Champion I would expect what we have now, which is a thriving political influence. If Shoju falls, and the Scorpion fall out of favor, the Shosuro could take over as Champion and guide the clan back to power with espionage and assassinations. Kachiko certainly wouldn't like it, but her brother may be able to gain influence on her since he is older and has actually lead his family where she simply married to power (regardless of how powerful she is.) The story can be her struggling with the failing reputation of the Scorpion clan, as the Shosuro Champion plays dirty with everyone, and Kachiko can take power back once she restores faith in the Bayushi and the political system.

2) I would like to see the Emperor as a more distant threat. I agree with Kinzen that the Emperor shouldn't have much real power, and be sorta at the mercy of which clans are powerful at the time. What makes Otosan Uchi so unique isn't that the Emperor rules from there, but that it is a single place where each clan's diplomats and politicians can travel to, reside, and interact at. I imagine the Emperor doesn't actually gain much in taxes as he doesn't really have the physical authority to go out and TAKE taxes from the clans. There are some they are able to tax, but I imagine most of it comes by way of gifts for favors. The clans present riches to the Emperor to buy his vote when it comes to political conflicts, or appointments. Who is the Emperor's Chancellor of the Exchequer? Considering the Scorpion have delivered great amounts of Koku, funded several parties, and stood up for the Emperor when the Crab general called him weak, it just might go to a high ranking Samurai of their clan (who's loyalty is definitely to the Scorpion, not the Emperor). There are tons of political appointments the Emperor can give out (and make up) to sell his power and maintain his position. As long as each clan has some buy-in to his power he can have the degree of their loyalty that he needs, which isn't really much. He only needs to keep the Imperial roads to Otosan Uchi safe for the travel of the nobles and secure their safety at the neutral zone.

The Imperial Army should be something that comes and goes. When an Emperor realizes they are too weak, and needs to gain some strength I could see them recruiting an Imperial Army and marching across Rokugan to pull all of the clans in tow again. They can also call conscription from the other clans, taking their best soldiers and sending them off on crazy expeditions that he knows they aren't likely to return from. In this way an Emperor who wanted to be strong could gain some stature, but it certainly shouldn't be the norm, but rather a "ruthless hantei" phase.

I hope the Hantei stay in power this time, and we simply get other positions like the Shogun, Emerald Champion, Jade Champion, Left and Right Chancellor, Chancellor of the Exchequer, ect In fact, I kinda hope the Role cards are part of this, and allow you to spend the Imperial Favor for some ability rather than its 1 MIL or POL.

Wow, I know the posts just a bit further up are getting long in the tooth, but reading it now I keep wanting to point out that there was no such thing as The Wall in the original conception of the Crab (the Shadowlands as a physical place was only added later because of concerns about being too similar to the world of another CCG). So it seems to me that pretty much any effort to analyze the origins of L5R that centers around comparisons to the Night's Watch or the Iron Curtain or anything like that is pretty much doomed to failure.

Also, there were barely any Monks in the Dragon Clan early on (there were literally zero Monks in Imperial Edition). The early Dragon Clan was focused on Mirumoto and Togashi Kami (Mitsu was running around, but he was an outlier and was not originally a Monk). The Dragon didn't get the big focus on Monks until Gold Edition when the Brotherhood of Shinsei faction was phased out. So focusing on the monks in analyzing early Dragon Clan probably not helpful.