I assume you cant dodge non-physical attacks such as Dominate but can I dodge Firebolt and Bio-lightning ?

The rules aren't exactly crystal clear, but let's examine what they say.

What can you dodge? According to pg 101, you can dodge a successful hand-to-hand or ranged attack.

What is a hand-to-hand (read: melee) or ranged attack, then?

Well, a melee attack is defined under Step One: Test on page 194, saying you must be engaged with your target and you Test Weapon Skill for success. Ranged attacks are then described as similar, but Testing Ballistic Skill instead.

For the rules, then, you can dodge attacks that use Weapon Skill and Ballistic Skill.

If we're sticking to the Rules as Written (RAW), you'd examine each Psychic Power to see what you test. Fire Bolt, as an example, asks for a Challenging Willpower test to hit. Since it tests neither WS nor BS, dodge cannot seem to apply.

Actually, almost all psychic powers test Willpower rather than BS or WS for their offensive powers. The only one I could see in the core rulebook that might be dodgeable would be Precision Telekinesis used with a melee weapon or ranged weapon or Psychic Blade. In these cases, you seem to clearly be making melee and/or ranged attacks, but you're substituting a different characteristic for the actual test.

This is, as most things are, something a GM and his players should probably discuss. Some might find it reasonable that psyker abilities can home in on a target with only the focus of the psyker's mind being a factor in whether the target is struck or not. Others might say that the source of the firepower isn't really important - blasts of energy are blasts of energy, and if you're not where they were originally aimed, you're not gunna get hit.

There was a thread on this a while back but can't seem to be able to track it... However, I'll try to make it short:

Ruleswise: You can dodge melee attacks (defined as using WS) and ranged attacks (defined as using BS). This would rule out dodging anything else up to and including grappling (which uses STR) and psychic powers.

Lorewise: Psychic attacks -unlike regular bolter bolts, laser blasts and whatnot- target the soul of the person in warp instead of any physical location in realspace. Thus you cannot sidestep a psychic attack just because you move in realspace. In order to "dodge" a psychic attack you would need to be able to move your soul in immaterium... Which no normal human can do. I'd say a skilled psychic might come up with a way to do that and Untouchables can't be targeted by psychic attacks since there is no soul to target to start with.

The Psyker is simply substituting their WP in place of BS for those powers to determine accuracy. If it requires a "to hit" roll AND you are aware of the attack AND you have a remaining reaction THEN you may choose to spend a reaction to attempt a dodge.

By contrast, if a power simply requires successful activation of the power and then makes some sort of opposed roll THEN you cannot dodge this attack. Effectively your opposed WP roll IS your defense... Handy that it does not blow your reaction for this (presumably) lopsided contest.

As far as I can tell the use of WP for accuracy of these powers is meant to represent that a powerful manifestation of his personal will upon the universe around him is rather different from spending countless hours training how to use a tool more effectively. Such an individual might be pretty darn accurate with bolts of fire hurled from his fingertips but shoots a lasgun like a maimed gretchin... AKA: "Why not all Psykers are snipers" rule.

ZillaPrime said:

Can you quote some rules that back up those claims, out of curiosity?

Unusualsuspect said:

I really doubt that since I've gone through the rules front- and backwise several times over and they are far from clear. There is no cut-clear definition of melee attack and no definition of ranged attack. The only thing that is sure is dodge is clearly said to work only against both melee attacks and ranged attacks. Thus the stance you take in this argument is based purely on persons own preference and vision. If I say Psychic Powers are not melee or ranged attacks its as much correct or incorrect as if Zilla says some of them are...

So its basically up to the GM ?

Seeing as psykers are overpowered already (IMO) I hope he at least lets us dodge against them.

Psychic powers should be treated just like the more mundane attack options used by other characters. If you hurl a bolt of fire at someone, in what way is that NOT a ranged attack? Likewise if someone employs Hammerhand and then punches a hole through your carapace breastplate then it is rather hard to claim this to NOT be a melee attack. A big part of being a GM is deploying your common sense squads in a coherent battle line and dug in behind suitable cover.

Of course it's up to the GM (and potentially the players - GMing need not be a dictatorship in that regard). ALL rules are up to the GM & co, regardless of how clear the rules are for a given question, and regardless of the "common" sense available.

My point was that the rules actually seem pretty clear what constitutes a melee attack and a ranged attack (they provide definitions, after all). The rules are also clear what the Dodge skill allows you to dodge (the afore-defined melee and ranged attacks).

"Common" sense is rarely common, and rules are generally worded to tell you what you can do, not what you can't do. If they don't say you CAN dodge something, you can't, barring a (perfectly reasonable) house rule to suit the GM's and player's preferences. Dark Heresy seems to require a lot more GM decision making for balance issues than most of the other systems I've tried, which is fine - makes the game more personal.

ZillaPrime said:

There is a difference between those two, though. A fire bolt is, in and of itself, a psychic power directed at an enemy. Hammerhand isn't - it augments the psyker. Making an unarmed attack while under the effects of Hammerhand isn't part of the power, but rather an augmented version of a normal action.

Unfortunately I believe according to the RAW you can't dodge psychic attacks. All rationalizing aside, on page 191 of the DH Rulebook under the header of 'Standard Attack' they describe a ranged attack as a Ballistics Skill Test. But... Lets go further. On pg 195 they describe Ranged Attacks in more detail. But it still says that a Ranged Attack uses a Ballistics Skill Test. But... Lets go even further . On pg 172 there is a psyker power called 'Precognitive Dodge'. This power lets a psyker (someone who should know about various psychic attacks) have a +30 bonus to dodge any ranged attack..... That uses the Ballistics Skill Test. There seems to be a theme here.

Now, the rational that one can dodge lasers yet not dodge someone shooting lightning bolts from their head does make sense. But the only problem is where do you draw the line? Can you dodge psychic attacks like Inflict Pain or Spasm. If not, why not? It can also be said for any psychic power that manifests itself physically. But here is a gray area. Is bio-lightning shot out of the hands (like in Return of the Jedi) or does it flow through the various conductive surfaces of the ground? Or does it simply radiate inward from many fixed points around the intended target? Now we could look at powers like Fire Bolt. Do these bolts of fire simply shoot from the psyker like bullets or do they home in on their intended target no matter what? What about Firestorm? It says that it can appear centered on the intended target. But could they dodge out of the way or would it simply appear where ever they go?

Now I leave this up to the GM's judgement. But in my opinion this sets up a bad precedence for potentially dodging every conceivable psychic attack. Now I know this makes psychic attacks really powerful, but there is also a Perils of the Warp risk involved. As an aside you could allow someone with the Resistance(Psychic Powers) talent a test to dodge the effects because that Talent seems a little more focused toward such an endeavor.

One thing of note. If you treat psychic attacks like ranged attacks you'd have to give them the same modifiers (short range, point blank range... etc). Where if they are just psychic attacks they wouldn't get them. That would make them a bit more dangerous.

Rather than sit here and debate either side of the question, I decided to do something definitive. I asked FFG what they thought. Here's what Ross had to say on the topic:

" Generally, yes, you can dodge a Psychic Power that causes Damage.

However, the GM may rule that some psychic powers (such as those that do not create a visible manifestation) may be un-dodgable. "

So the long and short of it is yes , except when the GM says no ... Kind of the general rule some people "voiced" on here already. Thank you Ross for the quick response, you are still the AWESOME.

-=Brother Praetus=-

Brother Praetus said:

Great to get FFG input to this... So it would mean that most WP targeted powers like biolightning, fire bolt, force bolt etc. are dodgeable. This still means you can't dodge psychic powers which have other effect than damage.

So the real answer to the question "Can I dodge a psychic attack?" is "Depends on attack."

Polaria said:

Well, it's really "depends on your GM", as it has always been, but yea, pretty much.

In TT these days they actually specifically say that they are 'psychic shooting' attacks. Would be nice if it was clear in DH too but it's shouldn't be too hard to work out. Most of the non-dodgeable attacks will be WP resisted if memory serves.

Face Eater said:

This is true. For simplicitys sake you could rule like ZillaPrime suggested earlier: "If it has WP resist you can't dodge. Otherwise you can."

Polaria said:

I'm sure there are exceptions, as it's never that, but that seems fair enough to me.

I'd probably also put Force Bolt and Force Barrage as undodgable, myself - they're basically invisible Force projectiles, right? You'd need to see it to dodge it, especially since there's no barrel of a gun to avoid being lined up with...

Biolightning as well seems like it would be difficult to dodge - it doesn't roll to hit, after all, which implies it actively and unerringly seeks out the designated target (moreso, at least, than even the willpower-driven Force Bolt and Fire Bolt).

That said, my GM is the ultimate decision-maker in this regard... I should probably ask him.

Unusualsuspect said:

This is basically what I was thinking and thus in my games I'll only be giving dodge against sorcery effects (because the hand gestures and chating do give a clear "move-your-ass" indication) and few very specific psychic powers (fire bolt comes to mind). Otherwise there is simply nothing to dodge since everything happens inside the psykers head untill the point when you are actually hit.

Yes, some might say this makes psykers "overpowered", but lets face it: They are supposed to be pretty **** powerfull and scary and they are already paying the price for it in the form of a very real possibility of being eaten by daemons every time they use their powers.

As an aside:

Unusualsuspect said:

"I'd probably also put Force Bolt and Force Barrage as undodgable, myself - they're basically invisible Force projectiles, right? You'd need to see it to dodge it, especially since there's no barrel of a gun to avoid being lined up with... "

I think there is NO WAY someone could realistically "dodge" a bullet, even if they see the gun pointed at them. Even if the shooter is 100 yards away. Just how far do you think you could move from the time the weapon is fired until the bullet reaches you? Time wise, we're talking miliseconds here. Unless you are Neo, you ain't gonna get far.

Of course, one could assume that the target sees the shooter and tries to move BEFORE the shot. Is that what you are suggesting?

Sanjay said:

That's what I've always assumed it to be; you can't dodge a bullet, but you can evade the attempts of the enemy before they fire.

When I DM my campaign, I work it out on a case by case scenario.

Because I tend to like my psykers more powerful than not I have tended to make most phychic powers undodgeable (I generally have a discussion and look at the wording for each power individually.

For example, fire ball, attacks with hammer hand, kinetic blade, etc are all dodgeable.

But, force bolt/bio lightning, cause pain etc are not.

My psyker knows better than to try and con me though because, in all likeliness he will be fighting a psyker later and wont want him to be OP.

Sanjay said:

Yes, you are correct. For all practical purposes bullets cannot be dodged. Shots can. I'll elaborate:

The shooter decides to fire his weapon, the decision forms in his mind and the nerve impulse is transmitted from the brain to his hand. With neural impulses travelleing at speed of nearly 360 kmph it takes 0,01 seconds for the neural impulse to work its way into trigger finger. It takes maybe 0,05 seconds for the trigger finger to convulse and pull the trigger beyond the point where it trips the hammer. The hammer travels to the firing pin in 0,005 seconds. The energy is delivered to firing pin which travels forward to touch the firing cap, reaching it in 0,001 seconds. The ignition of the cap takes 0,001 seconds and the blasting powder inside the casing is ignited in another 0,001 seconds. The pressure reaches leveles required to push the bullet in another 0,001 seconds and the bullet starts its merry way towards the target at speed of 400 meters per second (for 9 mm pistol, for example), clearing the barrel in 0,0008 seconds and hitting a target 5 meters away in 0,0125 seconds.

However, at this point the bullet is not flying towards target as such, but towards the point in space the barrel of the gun was pointing at the moment of the decision to fire... Which was 0,0815 seconds ago. Not much, mind you, but still a serious amount of time. Lets assume that the target started to move at the instant of the firing decision. At maximum speeds a well trained human can move his centre of gravity at speeds of nearly 10 meters per second and his arm or other extremity at speeds of nearly triple to that. This means that if the target started moving at the exact same moment the shooter decided to fire his centre of gravity has moved 0,8 meters or his extremity even 2 meters! He can have wasted even 75% of that time and he can still move his centerline 20 cm or his hand or leg 50 cm before the bullet hits!

This is why the best shooters in the world never try to aim at where the target is, but where they expect the target to be in 0,0X seconds. The further away the target is, the more important this becomes... At rifle-speed bullets (800+ mps) and rifle-fighting ranges of excess to 100 meters the flight time of the bullet is easily 1/8 of a second or more and you *will* miss if you don't take lead and even then you *will* miss if by happenstance the target decides to stop or change direction while the bullet is on flight. If someone 200 meters away knows he is being actively shot at and tries to move in non-predictable zig-zag pattern (non predictable being the key word here) even the best marksman in the world cannot guarantee a hit... He can guarantee a pretty large *probability* of hitting, but never 100%.

On a related note to this, I just wanted to check something: both armor and toughness is counted against psychic attacks that deal damage, unless otherwise specified in the power description right? Both fire bolt, force bolt and others?

Nihilius said:

Yes, unless otherwise specified by the power, you benefit from both your armor and TB.

-=Brother Praetus=-