I apologize in advance if this has been asked but the search function on these forums is so feeble that it's virtually useless (my obligatory apology that I feel compelled to make from time to time)...

Situation that came up during a melee:

Player A triggered the effect on his Ten Towers Honor Guard in his hand to put it into play under the control of Player B. Player B proceeded to win a challenge with TTHG participating against Player C. When B went to give A his TTHG per the card ability, C played Seasick to cancel that. (Seasick cancels triggered effects.) At this stage in resolving TTHG's effect, is it still a "triggered" effect or has the triggering come and gone and now it is some sort of lasting passive effect that Seasick cannot cancel?

This didn't come up, but it struck me as I was typing the above. Suppose that instead C had played Seasick when A had triggered the effect on TTHG to put it in play under B's control. That, I'm sure, would have been fine but I believe pointless and a waste of Seasick since TTHG wasn't actually "played" from A's hand (unlike an event card that someone might cancel) as a result of the effect being cancelled, so I assume that TTHG would stay in A's hand rather than go to A's discard pile and A could just re-trigger. Is that correct?

You may only cancel Ten tower honour guards effect at it´s initiation point. That´s when the army is about to be put into play. However you already mentioned that the effect could simply be triggered again and again and again.... so that makes no sense.

So player C in your example can´t cancel the second part of the effect.

Specifically:

When A triggers TTHG and puts them into play, he is indeed activating a triggered effect. The result of that effect is to put the character into play under B's control with a lasting condition on it, in which control of it is given back to Player A when a challenge is won. Now, when the challenge is won, that lasting condition happens whether Player A, B or C wants it to or not. There is no choice. So the control changes is a passively activated lasting effect/condition created by a triggered effect.

(It's actually a pretty advanced example of timing rules for the game.)

All that boils down to this: The effect that puts the TTHG into play (with the condition) is a triggered effect, and so susceptible to Seasick. The later activation of the control change is actually a passive effect (happens whether anyone wants it to or not), so is not cancelable by Seasick. The situation is very similar to, say, the CS-Khal Drogo.

And yes, canceling the triggered effect that puts it into play just leaves the TTHG in Player A's hand - where it could be triggered again. There is no real point in canceling that effect.

ktom said:

~ Ha! So that's the real use of this card.

ktom said:

So when i play an Eventcard (an Action) and my opponent plays Seasick the Card just go back in my hand??

it cant be

id thought cancelling would put it in the discardpile.

FAQ says:

(3.4) Paying For Cancelled Effects
Effects that are canceled are still considered
to have been played. Only the effects are
canceled. Costs have still been paid, and any
target is still chosen.

hm now im bit confused?

It must have something to do with the fact that TTHG are not considered "to be played" but are "put into play", am i right?

please say yes

oh i think i got it by myself (hope so )

cancel just means that the effect dont occurs.

so if i kneel a location and spend 3 gold in order to play eddard and my OPP plays seasick, then

i take him back in my hand and the gold is lost and the loc stays knelt.

right.

chrassos said:

chrassos said:

Right line of thinking, wrong example.

Yes, when you cancel something the effects don't occur, but the costs are still paid. The effect of TTHG is to put him into play from your hand. If that doesn't happen, he stays in your hand. The reason events are discarded even if they are canceled is because playing them from your hand is a part of the "cost" required to activate them. So events leave your hand as part of the cost; TTHG would only leave your hand as part of the effect.

Your example of "I kneel a location and spend 3 gold to play Eddard and my opponent plays Seasick" is a little off in that playing a character, location or attachment from your hand is not a triggered effect. It is a game effect. Therefore, Seasick cannot cancel you Marshaling a card. In fact, there is no card in the LCG that can stop your from Marshaling a card - although there are a few that can discard them right after you do. So the comparison doesn't work.

Here are the rules of thumb relating to this issue:

1. Nothing can "cancel" Marshaling a card.

2. Event cards leave your hand as part of the cost to play them. If they are canceled, they are discarded.

3. If an effect that "puts a card into play" is canceled, the card that would be put into play stays where it is, but the costs are still paid.

ok,

to 1. in general: Game effects cannot be canceled. are there more "game effects"???

to 2. Eventcards have to all possible costs the maincost that ->> Coreset: Event cards are played from your hand for their
text effect. ok understood.

FAQ :Effects that are canceled are still considered to have been played. Only the effects are
canceled.

so if i cancel an eventcard or maybe an Any Phase: Action, therefore i cancel only the effect.

cost have still been paid, targets are still choosen and the Eventcard or Action was successfully played.

so i could response to a successfully played Eventcard or an Action (short: triggered effect)

to 3. is the Ambush Keyword like that? the influence i kneel is lost but the card stays in my hand. is that so?

4. Back to my example: (we are not done yet )

if my Opp wants to avoid that i play eddard. i have a fiefdom card and 3 gold in my goldpool.

could he possibly cancel the loweringeffect (its a triggered effect) for my next char, to stop me from marshaling eddard this round???

5. what is this mean: FAQ: Paying a cost with influence is not considered triggering an effect.

does it mean if i kneel "Paramour" (Pots) in order to generate one influence this is not considered a triggered effect?

chrassos said:

Game effects are anything that initiate because the rules of the game say they do. So yeah, there are a ton of game effects. Any framework event, like revealing plots in the plot phase, drawing cards in the draw phase, declaring attackers in a challenge, resolving challenges, counting Dominance, etc. is considered a game effect. Compare that to a card effect, which only happens because a card is in play. They aren't part of the basic structure of the game.

Game effects actually can be canceled - just not by something like Seasick, which specifically says it cancels "triggered effects." Triggered effects are a type of card effect, not a game effect. Seasick cannot cancel Marshaling characters, claim effect, initiating a challenge, etc. But if a card specifically says it can cancel a game effect (like Red Vengeance, which says it cancels claim, or the Lord Commander title, which the FAQ describes as canceling the "declare defenders" part of a challenge), it can.

So yes, while my comment that nothing can cancel you Marshaling a card is true at the moment - because there is nothing that says "when a player Marshals a card, cancel it" - it is possible that a card could be printed in the future to do that.

chrassos said:

Well, there is a technicality here. The event card is considered to have been played, but it was not "successful." So if you have a Response that says "after an event card is played," you can use it, even if the event card is canceled. But if the event was supposed to kill something and it is canceled, you cannot say the event was "successful" and use an "after a character is killed" Response. An event was successfully initiated, but it was not successfully resolved. Pay attention to that difference when looking at Responses.

chrassos said:

The FAQ specifically says that keywords cannot be canceled. You may not even try to cancel a card being Ambushed into play.

chrassos said:

t4. Back to my example: (we are not done yet )

if my Opp wants to avoid that i play eddard. i have a fiefdom card and 3 gold in my goldpool.

could he possibly cancel the loweringeffect (its a triggered effect) for my next char, to stop me from marshaling eddard this round???

Yes, when you kneel the Fiefdom (or whatever), he can cancel that, so that the next card you play is not reduced by 1, making it difficult to play a 4-cost character at that time. HOWEVER, that still leaves you with 3 gold to spend.

chrassos said:

Correct. You are not triggering an effect or ability of the Paramour when you kneel it to pay the cost of something with influence. You are, however, triggering the effect that you are paying for with influence. So, if I kneel a Paramour to pay the cost of The Prince's Wrath, I cannot play Seasick on the Paramour and say that your influence is canceled and you cannot pay for the event. I can , however, play Seasick to cancel The Prince's Wrath directly.

The entry in the FAQ came because people would try to use cards that said "cancel a location effect" when someone tried to kneel a Fiefdom to play the influence cost of an event, essentially trying to turn "cancel a location effect" into "cancel an event."

to 1. understood

to 2. also.

ofcourse "playing a card" is different to "successfully playing" a card.

to 3. yes. i found the entry in the FAQ. ****. how i can manage to memorize this little FAQ/Rule Book. any hints?

to 4. yes Yes YES i wrote something true (nearly) all by myself.

to 5. this example really shows the complexity and potential of this game. you must play carefully, and there are often so much options were one think there is no.

thanks a lot ktom

was really nice to swap some thoughts with you

until then

n8

PS: hope i can sleep after this brainstorm surely i will dream some (sea)sick-stuff

PPS: this game is truly nothing for kids and/or MTG-Players!

PPPS: you are a hell of a AGOT-Player arent you?

chrassos said:

Nope. Pretty average, really. Understanding all the subtleties of how something works and making it work are not necessarily the same thing.

just to make sure i got it

I have Eddard in play with a Bodyguard attached and no influence. eddard is considered killed so i want to discard the bodyguard to save him, but ...

my OPP plays Seasick.

discarding the Bodyguard is part of the cost of the triggered effect. so the bodyguard will be discarded (the cost stays) and the texteffect is cancelled.

so eddard would be killed. right?

what if eddard had a dupe instead of the bodyguard?

could my opp play seasick to cancel the discarding of the dupe to save eddy? yes, of course because discardin a dupe is just a Response.

with the same result. eddy is killed.

"By Jove, I think he's got it!"

Interesting side note. Say you had Bodyguard and a dupe on Eddard. You discard the Bodyguard to save him. Your opponent "Seasicks" it when you have no influence. So you discard the dupe to save him. Eddard loses both the (canceled) Bodyguard and the dupe, but he lives!

(The trick here is that some people make the mistake of thinking you only have one chance to save a character and if the save is canceled, you're out of luck. But if the save is canceled, you are allowed to try to use a second, separate save effect.)

ahhhh.

interesing indeed.

this one i will "save" for the right moment.

thanks for the lessons.