21 hours ago, Sekac said:

I think the reason everyone had gone nerf crazy around here lately is because the last FAQ took the heaviest handed approach to balancing X-wing that the community has yet seen.

The 40k community, by contrast, has seen many huge swings of power as editions change every few years and new armies come out or get updated. No one shift in power resonates the way those latest changes did here because they're used to it.

The side-effect of the Great Nerfing is now people have seen that FFG is willing to step in and dramatically change things if necessary, and now they've got a taste for it. Now everyone's pet grievance is being trotted out as the next thing to nerf.

If you give a mouse a cookie, he'll want a glass of milk.

Or maybe the reason is that an entire faction has been thrown out of the competition almost completly? Meanwhile the faction that was clearly dominating still is.

The FAQ did not help to balance the game at all. Instead it amplified the problem. Pre FAQ we had one faction dominating, one faction doing ok but with only 2-3 viable builds and one faction SLIGHTLY behind. Now we have the same faction dominating, one doing ok with many build options and one almost completely gone from top positions in major events.

In the "archetype" category of list juggler, the best imperial build is in 10th position. There are 6 scum builds and 3 rebels...

4 hours ago, Stay On The Leader said:

I wonder if the Runewars double dial is them speccing up X-Wing 2.0.

I am sure they would love to revamp wave 1-4/5/? to bring a better balance with their newest waves, I just think it would be a HUGE mistake. Now is not the time to think of resetting their most popular game that shows no sign of slowing down. Yes the vocal minority of us on this board ***** and moan, but we still play weekly and still buy every wave on release. Are there things that we want to see changed? Yes. Are there things that are so out of whack with new release? Yes. Do we need to throw out the baby with the bath water? No. Too many people have thousands of dollars invested in a "cheap" miniatures game and the prospect of spending thousands more on Version 2.0 would probably cut a huge section of the community out of playing in the future.

5 minutes ago, Cusm said:

I am sure they would love to revamp wave 1-4/5/? to bring a better balance with their newest waves, I just think it would be a HUGE mistake. Now is not the time to think of resetting their most popular game that shows no sign of slowing down. Yes the vocal minority of us on this board ***** and moan, but we still play weekly and still buy every wave on release. Are there things that we want to see changed? Yes. Are there things that are so out of whack with new release? Yes. Do we need to throw out the baby with the bath water? No. Too many people have thousands of dollars invested in a "cheap" miniatures game and the prospect of spending thousands more on Version 2.0 would probably cut a huge section of the community out of playing in the future.

Probably why everyone is still playing 1st Edition Warhammer 40k - it was so popular they never bothered to relaunch it!

11 minutes ago, Cusm said:

the prospect of spending thousands more on Version 2.0

Every thing that needs to be done can be done with a card only errata box. No ships, just reprinted cards, with any necessary rewording or points changes, and enough of each for spamming. Plus changed dials for a few of the older ships too to address the dial creep issue.

One single cost per player to update to "version 2.0".

Just now, Stay On The Leader said:

Probably why everyone is still playing 1st Edition Warhammer 40k - it was so popular they never bothered to relaunch it!

Is that the game that made people stop playing miniature war games because of relaunching, dropping armies, relaunching expensive rule books? Most of our local community are not miniature game veterans; the ones that tried X-Wing most did not stay. Would my local community put up with crap GW pulls, absolutely not. We have several players that HATE GW and X-Wing is their only miniature game now. Would a relaunch have everyone leave? No. Would it alienate and stop many/some of from rebuying? Absolutely. Would many/some jump feet first into a new system? Absolutely. I love the mechanics that FFG have developed in their newer games since X-Wings launch, and I am sure they (and myself) would love to see them in X-Wing, but maybe as version 1.5. Don't make us rebuy our entire collections. I have 6 X-Wings and 20 TIE Fighters, I don't and probably wouldn't buy another system with the "same" ships.

30 minutes ago, Thormind said:

Or maybe the reason is that an entire faction has been thrown out of the competition almost completly? Meanwhile the faction that was clearly dominating still is.

The FAQ did not help to balance the game at all. Instead it amplified the problem. Pre FAQ we had one faction dominating, one faction doing ok but with only 2-3 viable builds and one faction SLIGHTLY behind. Now we have the same faction dominating, one doing ok with many build options and one almost completely gone from top positions in major events.

In the "archetype" category of list juggler, the best imperial build is in 10th position. There are 6 scum builds and 3 rebels...

I didn't say they successfully balanced game, just that they tried to. X7 and Palp were both skilless crutches propping up the imperial faction, and FFG felt they needed to be addressed. I actually agree, but it is a shame that imperials have fallen off so hard without them.

Personally, I'd rather see imperials get more powerful ships and combos in the future rather than systematically nerfing everything until the game state is "perfect."

1 minute ago, Stevey86 said:

Every thing that needs to be done can be done with a card only errata box. No ships, just reprinted cards, with any necessary rewording or points changes, and enough of each for spamming. Plus changed dials for a few of the older ships too to address the dial creep issue.

One single cost per player to update to "version 2.0".

This would be fantastic and not alienate a lot of the people that got into X-Wing for the "cheap" miniature aspect and not veteran miniature players that are used to GW refreshes.

16 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

Probably why everyone is still playing 1st Edition Warhammer 40k - it was so popular they never bothered to relaunch it!

Yea, I don't disagree that X-Wing could use an update. But that is a terrible example.

I was flying blind on that one - I've genuinely actually not played since Rogue Trader!

My original point is being lost I think - Runewars mini system looks like a test run of x-wing 2.0 to me.

7 minutes ago, Cusm said:

This would be fantastic and not alienate a lot of the people that got into X-Wing for the "cheap" miniature aspect and not veteran miniature players that are used to GW refreshes.

I.E. myself.

I've never played nor do I intend to play another miniatures games. And I sure as **** am not buying all this over again.

I actually don't have a problem with the changes. I just wish I had cards with accurate text!

2 minutes ago, SWO Daddy said:

I actually don't have a problem with the changes. I just wish I had cards with accurate text!

I like alt arts so I have never had a problem with the text.

2 hours ago, Stay On The Leader said:

I was flying blind on that one - I've genuinely actually not played since Rogue Trader!

My original point is being lost I think - Runewars mini system looks like a test run of x-wing 2.0 to me.

You are right. Since X-Wing has been released, FFG has learned and improved their systems. I think if they came out today with X-Wing, it would have the Runewar's double dial, Armada's 3 dice/distance and many other little things from their games. The one I forget and makes the most sense, ship movement templates, Armada got this one right; measurement is done at the front of a ship, so speed 1 is a speed 1, not a speed 1 for a small ship and a speed 3 for large base ship. This and Armada's Campaign are probably test cases for future X-Wing plans.

1 hour ago, Sekac said:

I didn't say they successfully balanced game, just that they tried to. X7 and Palp were both skilless crutches propping up the imperial faction, and FFG felt they needed to be addressed. I actually agree, but it is a shame that imperials have fallen off so hard without them.

Personally, I'd rather see imperials get more powerful ships and combos in the future rather than systematically nerfing everything until the game state is "perfect."

X7 and Palp were not skilless. I dont know where that came from but i do not think it is true, especially if compared to Uboats or Casters, . Even with a free evade on defense you still had to play smart to win. Same thing for Palp. He was good but you still needed skills to win.

The problem with the Imperial is the base formula of low health/high agi/good dial doesnt work anymore. The only ships of the faction that kinda perform at the moment are the ones with higher health. They act much more like rebels ships than traditional empire material. The aggressor will probably be good but i dont think it will be on par with the Ywing for the exact same reason.

Just addiing more powerful ships will create the same situation we had with Palp/X7. People will only play the new stuff which will lead to a perception that it's unbalanced which will lead to nerfs and a return to the same problem.

I dont know what the solution is but something needs to be done to make the characteristics of the Imperial faction matter again:

- Positioning needs to matter, even for turret ships. Maybe they can make all 360 arcs works like the shadowcaster? If you dont position correctly, you lose an action to rotate your weapon.

- Agi needs to matter and ALL source of dmg needs to have some form of corresponding defense. When a ship only has 3 hull pts, unblockable dmg become an issue. Especially when there are so many different sources available and/or when it's easily applied (Slamming K-wings...).

- Offense is getting too powerful. Regular 4 dices attacks fully moded, TLTs, double attacks, etc. Many of those source are undercosted.

- We need to be able to target highly offensive ships when we need/want. Here i'm pointing directly at Biggs. He was fine when the power lvl was lower but when he lets pilots/ships like Miranda or the Ghost do their things for some rounds without any retaliation possible, he's a problem.

9 minutes ago, Thormind said:

[Stuff.]

I tend to agree with you (at least overall, though I might quibble on particulars), but keep in mind: you're swimming against a torrent. Hyper-offense (including auto-damage) shortens games . The trend is pretty unmistakable at this point ... somebody at FFG -- my opinion is it's probably Organized play -- wants shorter games.

15 minutes ago, Thormind said:

X7 and Palp were not skilless. I dont know where that came from but i do not think it is true, especially if compared to Uboats or Casters, . Even with a free evade on defense you still had to play smart to win. Same thing for Palp. He was good but you still needed skills to win.

I'm not saying they were auto-win mechanics, but the mechanics themselves required no skill to benefit from them. There was no skill required to dial in a speed 3 maneuver and get an evade regardless of obstacles, bumping, or stress. There was no skill in looking at a dice roll and deciding, "do I want to evade this attack, or take damage? Hmm, guess I'll evade it."

Yes you still needed skill to win games, but that's true of every list. The mechanics were all upside, no downside, and no way to misuse them.

But this isn't a thread about whether or not the nerfs were justified, just why everyone is now obsessing over what to nerf next.

39 minutes ago, Sekac said:

I'm not saying they were auto-win mechanics, but the mechanics themselves required no skill to benefit from them. There was no skill required to dial in a speed 3 maneuver and get an evade regardless of obstacles, bumping, or stress. There was no skill in looking at a dice roll and deciding, "do I want to evade this attack, or take damage? Hmm, guess I'll evade it."

Yes you still needed skill to win games, but that's true of every list. The mechanics were all upside, no downside, and no way to misuse them.

But this isn't a thread about whether or not the nerfs were justified, just why everyone is now obsessing over what to nerf next.

Thats the thing, there were skill involved. Doing only high speed maneuver with a ship makes you perfectly predictable. I agree with the evade not working with obstavles but the rest was too much. It's not hard now to stress a ship and it's also quite easy to block a defender. That free evade was needed. We can see that clearly with the drop the ship had in ranking.

Knowing when to use Palp was also a skill. On high PS ships, do i use him on offense or do i keep him for defense? If a ship has 1 hull remaining, to i use Palp to try to take it down now with a chance of being evaded or do i play safe and keep him on defense? Do i use him on that asteroid roll or save him for my damaged ship that could be destroyed soon? There are many times when i used Palp and i shouldnt have... Palp cost A LOT to bring in a squad. For that cost you were garanteed to have 1 positive effect from him per turn. Now hes wasted like 40-50% of the time (ie you call him on roll and you end up not needing him because you got the result you wanted from the dices...).

18 minutes ago, Thormind said:

Now hes wasted like 40-50% of the time (ie you call him on roll and you end up not needing him because you got the result you wanted from the dices...).

That's not true. I never get the result I want from my dice. ?

1 hour ago, Thormind said:

Thats the thing, there were skill involved. Doing only high speed maneuver with a ship makes you perfectly predictable. I agree with the evade not working with obstavles but the rest was too much. It's not hard now to stress a ship and it's also quite easy to block a defender. That free evade was needed. We can see that clearly with the drop the ship had in ranking.

Knowing when to use Palp was also a skill. On high PS ships, do i use him on offense or do i keep him for defense? If a ship has 1 hull remaining, to i use Palp to try to take it down now with a chance of being evaded or do i play safe and keep him on defense? Do i use him on that asteroid roll or save him for my damaged ship that could be destroyed soon? There are many times when i used Palp and i shouldnt have... Palp cost A LOT to bring in a squad. For that cost you were garanteed to have 1 positive effect from him per turn. Now hes wasted like 40-50% of the time (ie you call him on roll and you end up not needing him because you got the result you wanted from the dices...).

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, but it's a moot point now. What's done is done.

10 hours ago, Stay On The Leader said:

Probably why everyone is still playing 1st Edition Warhammer 40k - it was so popular they never bothered to relaunch it!

Speaking of which ...