This question was originally in the "priestly healing" thread, but was kind of buried in there.

So:

Can Action card powers be used outside Encounter mode?

The answer to this affects a lot of things (including priest healing, of course).

If "yes", then we need to figure out how to stop a lot of weird cases (instant healing, instant fatigue/stress recharge, etc).

If "no", then it means that magic and invocations don't work outside combat (or other Encounter modes). Which is weird. It also makes the card Call of the Wild a somewhat useless card, since the main use case would be to have it active before you end up in Encounter mode (via ambush etc).

If "sometimes", we need clear guidelines on what and when. "GM discretion" doesn't cut it, when it affects such critical stuff as healing (is it instant or weeks in bed? That cannot just be "GM decides", especially since all other types of healing have exact mechanics).

IMO yes they can be used outside of encounter mode and I use the GM section on timescale in the ToA p16 to dicate how often such things can be used to limit instant healing etc.

for healing i equate a round to the entire time between the last encounter and the next encounter (i.e healing spells can be cast once in "story mode"), if the game then moves back into encounter mode, then new rounds begin, and once the game is out of encounter mode again and into story mode, its back to the entire round being the time until the next encounter.

If there needs to be a story driver behind this ruling, then it is simply that the gods are fickle and do not always listen to their servants requests, especially if those requests are for constantly the same thing.

If you want to make a round a different time length, and therefore allow for more healing (i.e. once the PCs are back at the INN, although still in story mode, you decide its a new round and therefore healing spells can be attempted again), then just go with that.

I know perhaps this isn't the answer you were looking for, but that is fundementally how this game now sits.

On a small but significant point though, this is not a house rule I have had to invent, I'm following the rules on page 16 of ToA. So strictly speaking I'm not sure this is a game that you have to house rule to make work (as you mentioned in the healing/priest thread); one man's GM interpretation is anyone man's house rule, though I guess!.

Interestingly, as someone else pointed out in that thread, the same issue DID also occur in V2 and in that game it was in far more in need of a real house rule to limit insta healing, at least until Tome of Salvation came along, at which point they sort of offered a fix/solution.

The problem then becomes PCs forcing bogus encounters to allow them to trigger healing etc.

Personally I am comfortable with actions outside of encounters, I just limit healing to one attempt per fresh set of wounds - the goddess looks dimly on repeated requests. I would take the same view of them beating up on some poor innocent in the hope of gaining a fresh wound so that healing could kick in again.

However, I think some FAQ guidance would be useful for players who are not so comfortable in the use of these sorts of actions outside of formal encounters.

Also, curious as to the fix in Tome of Salvation (and wondering why it was not addressed here given the designers seem to have wide 1e/2e experience).

You do need to houserule to make the game work as intended at all. For instance, Assess the Situation can remove all stress and fatigue - just spam it, each time getting 1 Fatigue and Stress back, by thinking about stuff that happened really hard.

If the GM says you cannot use action cards out of encounters, then you can just start a detailed argument with an NPC (enter encounter mode) and boom, now you can assess to your heart's content.

Juriel said:

Being the GM, I would just keep spamming the party tension meter to maximum. I win.

Honestly, I don't understand why this is an issue. The GM is supposed to be in charge of when this stuff is allowed, and make judgment calls.

Want to use Assess the Situation in story mode? That's fine, but the GM should expect the player to make it interesting. After all, we're in story mode. "Go ahead. Tell me what you're doing to try to assess the situation." If you can keep coming up with ideas, the GM might keep letting you use that action. Or maybe they'll just let you use it once, giving you some extra fortune dice for your creativity.

Starting an argument just to be able to spam an action in encounter mode is bad form, and everyone can sense that. It's metagaming at its worst. The player who tries that at my table will learn just how quickly I can hand out stress and fatigue as I see fit (which I'm allowed to do by the RAW). The GM's job is to make sense of the character's abilities in the situations they're used. If they don't make sense, or if they're clearly being abused, the GM can set any restrictions they like. "You'll be able to use that action again [whenever the GM says]."

That way, the players will know where they stand and make plans accordingly. If they know they can't make another healing attempt for a few hours, that's fair enough, don't you think?

I can think of reasons why healing blessings can be used more frequently in the heat of battle than in the relative peace that follows. All of that blood and passion and anger draws Shallya's attention. But when the fighting is over, Shallya's got other patients to attend to. You might try to spam healing blessings in story mode, but the GM can keep piling on challenge and misfortune dice as Shallya's attention is harder to get, since the need for her blessings is less urgent. Treating your god like a cash machine should be stressful for the character, and possibly for the entire party. The GM has ways to keep a lid on that sort of abuse that while still saying yes.

"Some players may try to abuse the GM's position if all requests are approved without a second thought." That's on page 20 of the ToA, in the sidebar on The Power of Yes. The advice in that sidebar covers this issue and offers some ideas for how to deal with it. No house rules needed.

DagobahDave said:

IMO that's very bad form for a GM to respond that way. It is far better to talk to your players constructively than try and punish them through game mechanics. As you say, a GM has considerable power over the game and should avoid abusing it.

FWIW I agree that any RPG should have a "Don't be a ****" rule in it. However, I am not sure that some of the examples of weird results of using Action Cards out of Encounters are a result of the players being a ****. There is some genuine uncertainty that a GM will need to carefully manage as the solution may not be obvious or shared by all players.

Skywalker said: IMO that's very bad form for a GM to respond that way. It is far better to talk to your players constructively than try and punish them through game mechanics. As you say, a GM has considerable power over the game and should avoid abusing it.

My point is that neither the players nor the GM should be trying to abuse the rules.

Skywalker said: FWIW I agree that any RPG should have a "Don't be a ****" rule in it. However, I am not sure that some of the examples of weird results of using Action Cards out of Encounters are a result of the players being a ****. There is some genuine uncertainty that a GM will need to carefully manage as the solution may not be obvious or shared by all players.

Talking it over is all I'm suggesting. Running away with the rules can be avoided that way.

DagobahDave said:

I agree, but then again that applies to all RPGs.

Juriel said:

Except it is the GM that decides when encounter mode is entered, the players can't really force it (not even by attacking someone physically).

I kind of made my points in the other thread already so can't be bothered to repeat what I wrote here. I agree completely with what DagobahDave is writing, it is part of the GM responsibilities to interpret the rules in these cases.

In general I think there way too much pressure on RPGs these days to be complete when it comes to rules. People want rules for everything from the price of horses (come on, just decide on whatever floats your boat, the fundamental question is whether it fits in the story/char evolution that the players have horses) to a zillion new spells that are missing. Being a long time GM I have played games of very varying complexity and "completeness", in my experience games with rules for everything can quickly become very slow when the GM has to consult he books/tables and so on. The game designers are also not infallible, sometimes a small error in the written rules can cause major problems in play, the more rules the higher the chance of this happening.

That being said it would of course be good if this issue could be clarified in the FAQ, I just think you're making a way too large issue out of it. There is plenty of stuff that needs to be clarified in the rules, this is just one of the things.

I think it's bad form to justify bad rules with 'the GM can make **** up'. Certainly we don't need 100$ worth of toys if you just make everything up.

gruntl said:

Well, yeah, but the main problem here (the way I see it), is that this game is a bit bipolar. It has very exact rules, with resource management, for a lot of stuff... and then pretty much everything else is left to "GM discretion". There is very little middle ground. It can be very jarring to a GM, even to an experienced one. The game doesn't seem to be able to decide if it wents to be a rules-light freeform one or a strictly structured gamist one.

A good example (again) is healing:

• healing with First Aid or Medicine? We get exact mechanics and results
• healing with magical healing potions? Again, exact mechanics and results
• healing in combat, via Invocations? Again, exact mechanics and results
• healing outside of combat, via Invocations? No guidelines whatsoever, the result could be anything

I'm sure there are other cases. That sudden switch from "exact rules" to "total GM discretion with no guidelines" is the thing giving a lot of people (incl. me) problems, and it looks more like "rules mechanic that slipped through the cracks" than a deliberate design choice to me.

I've run a lot of very freeform games, I have no problem with that. It's the weird context switch here that's the problem.

Juriel said:

I don't think folks are suggesting making everything up - just the GM deciding when things can be used if there is some doubt. Works for me, though I appreciate the comments the OP has made re some dichotomy between tight rules structures and freeform. For me, the only area that is freeform is when to use the tight rules structures and when to use considered GM opinion. I am a bit like DDave, scratching my head a little over what the problem is. One of my players looked over my shoulder a few minutes back at one of the topics we are debating on another forum and laughed out loud at finding we have any issues with a game which has been flowing remarkably smoothly in our sessions.

Starting to think I might be the d&^k

PetriWessman said:

I do agree with you on that one, it is one of the things that was/is nagging me about the rules. But I think it is supposed to be that way, you are supposed to play the game as a blend of gamist/freeform styles (e.g. abstract length scales, granting bonus dice for good RP).

For my group the blend of gamist/freeform works extraordinarily well though and is actually one of the things that make this the best system that has come out the last couple of years (in my opinion).

TonyACT said:

Yep, I looked that up last night to refresh myself on the ruling after posting, and although in don't have books with me, it went something like this...

Heavily wounded (3 wounds or less) can only be healed by magic once per day, and then there was something about heavily wounded players only getting 1 wound back regardless of the spell roll too.

It was the once per day thing that sticks in my mind..

A similar rule could be implemented in V3 replacing heavily with critically, which sort of then mirrors the non-spell healing rolls allowed in V3, and someone else has already mentioned that normal wounds should be relatively easy to get rid of and multiple spells in story mode could be used in that instance.

Or you just say that someone can only be healed once per day (by spell), period. In the same way the recovery test can only be applied once per day.

Without looking at some of the action cards for healing spells though, I'm not sure how well that would work.

"Action outside encounter mode" thread ? I don't see why I should limit any action card like social card or spell, or any characteristic action...

But Healing or recovering fatigue/stress is another point... This is about balancing the game... So let's talk about it :

BOOK SAYS : HEALING (rulebook p.64)... Hey, those two healing illustrations are Magical Healing !

• Rest and Recovery : 1 per full night of rest with a Resilience check (possibly assisted with first aid or medecine), or 1+ day with Long Term Care in order to lessen its Challenge.

• First Aid and Immediate Care / Medecine (same with less risk) : Each character can only beneft from one successful First Aid check per Act during an encounter. Outside of a structured encounter, a character can beneft from one successful First Aid check per scene, or per the GM’s discretion.

• Other sources of healing : In addition to the First Aid and Medicine skills, other types of healing exist. A rare few arcane spells and a variety of divine blessings can heal wounds and help a character recover from stress or fatigue. The specifc efects of each spell or blessing is detailed on the corresponding action cards.

As a GM, I DECIDE to Keep it logical : These "other sources of healing" are spells and blessing cards and there's no specific limit written on it... But as regular Healing is limited, and Magic/blessing's healing effects are more powerful than regular's....

In my old world ORDINARY DARK DEADLY GRIMMY SETTING, Magic/blessing's healing must be limited too. I certainly wouldn't put limit in a HIGH FANTASY SETTING.So other sources of healing are as limited as First Aid and Immediate care :

• one per Act during an encounter.
• Outside of a structured encounter, a character can beneft from one successful check per scene, or per the GM’s discretion

Excuse my english, and enjoy your game.

willmanx said:

I think at the end of the day, every GM will need to make this decision because as it stands the rules as written don't provide an adequate answer. As such, I concur with your approach.

I think the problem here is that the actions are designed to work best in combat, where there are fewer variables than story mode. In combat, time and position are more strictly tracked. The actions and their recharge rates seem to be balanced for that environment.

In social encounters and in story mode, there are no such assumptions about time or position. Things are much more flexible and fluid, and GMs have more work to do. It's impossible for the rules to cover all of the possible uses of an action outside of encounter mode because of that. I don't think this is a flaw in the game's design, since many RPGs have a freeform story mode that gives way to a more detailed combat mode.

The problem here seems to be with recharge rates outside of combat, and the lack of guidance in the rulebook. A future FAQ update might address this, but I wouldn't expect it to provide specifics. Some groups will be perfectly fine with everyone getting healed and rested up just after combat (spamming their blessings, in other words). I'd have a problem with the game if it was designed to do that. I doesn't feel right, but I don't think I could nail down exactly why. In story mode, the GM should trust their instincts about those sorts of things, but also discuss them with the players and get a sense for how the entire group feels.

Recharge rates can still be used in story mode, and the GM can remove recharge tokens at a rate that feels right. I think the complaints about daily abilities in D&D4 are valid ones, and WFRP3 has opted for a hands-off approach to that sort of thing, letting the GM and the players set their own story-mode recharge rates according to their own preferences. I'd rather that these things were left to a case-by-case, group-by-group decision than strictly governed by something as arbitrary as a day. The "fix" to this issue is worse than the problem, I think.

But we'll see what happens. I haven't run into any problems with this sort of thing yet, but of course my group doesn't have access to every action in the game.

DagobahDave said:

Excellent observation. Most Action Cards are balanced by costs that do relate to Encounter mode and specifically Combat. Recharge rates and requiring an Action are about opportunity costs. As such, outside of this environment, Action Cards can be freely used without cost, which gives rise to most of the oddites.

DagobahDave said:

I agree. Either FFG make a decision either way, it will cause issues with which ever side they don't side on I am banking on seeing the ubiquitous "Its over to the GM to decide".

DagobahDave said:

Whilst I agree, I think there is a point where its easier to dump recharge rates altogether. If time is not a concern then why track it with a resource like Recharging. If a GM decides that 1 Recharge is 1 hour, surely its easier just to say that the Action Card can be used continuously outside of Encounters. This makes sense for a lot of Action Cards like Call of the Wild and Born to the Streets that give benefits whilst recharging.

As I have noted on another forum - but relevant here - I am starting to agree with those suggesting that Action Cards might only be useable in Encounter Mode.

This does not mean that you can't use things like spells etc in Story Mode - just make a skill check and add fortune dice for folks with relevant action cards, perhaps adjusting difficulty in their favour if appropriate.

This is really simple, in keeping with the flavour of the rules, of course ymmv, and no doubt FFG will say I am dead wrong

I also took a look at Call of the Wild - one of the cards that has provoked some debate about when it can be used. The card really suggests to me that it is meant to be used in an Encounter - the 3 success line that extends recharge to keep its benefits flowing seals it for me. As noted, I would allow observation checks for folks in a group with someone with this skill an added fortune die in Story Mode.

TonyACT said:

That's a cool approach and probably the easiest. I am going to allow some flavour from Action Cards in story mode beyond bonus fortune dice, but I agree that for the most part the Action Card effects will act only as a guide.

I was thinking a bit more about this and cam up with another idea, that I'm not sure whether I like or not yet....!

I agree with DDave's comment that the once per day option is a bit arbitary and potentially more damaging than helpful; it certainly impacts on the ability to whether certain actions can be used in encounters or not, "did you already cast a spell on me yet today or can you heal me now?" etc etc.

I think TonyACT's more free form approach for a lot of the action cards also works well, and i might implement that for some of the cards, but i still see a problem with spells and healing spells, specifically if you have a problem with spells being spammed outside of combat to instant heal, which I do; i just don't think that fits with the setting.

Anyway, onto my idea..

I was looking at what other recharge mechanics go off in the game and work well in both encounter and story mode,and still has some GM caveat input and spotted the fortune pool.

I wondered then if the fortune pool refresh mechanic could also instigate a healing spell re-use mechanic, or any other action that you'd like to put a limit on in story mode.

The GM has control because he decides when fortune points are added to the pool, but it seems a bit more tied down to something mechanical (even if that is just smoke and mirrors) than just "the GM decides" rule.

I think the only thing to decide about how to implement this is how does this impact on encounters. Does the fotune refresh only work in story mode, so the action cards that a limited in use (such as spells) can immediately be used again as soon as encounter mode is entered even if fortune has not refreshed, or once used, can you only use a healing spell on that person again once fortune refreshes, regardless of which mode you are in...

Does anyone have any thoughts or suggestions on how this concept might be fine tuned?

pumpkin said:

That's a bloody intriguing idea. I would definitely like to see it thought through some more but it could well be a winner.

Using fortune pool refresh to dictate some healing etc timings sounds interesting. Nice idea.

I've been debating this rules issue a lot of rpg.net, and today I realized that (I think) part of the problem for me has been a mistake in how I've viewed Encounter mode in general. I'll cut+paste my post here as well, in case someone is interested. This is just my current "understanding", so it could be totally wrong for all I know.

Anyway:

(snip)-

Ok, I think I have some sort of a handle on this now (at least in my own head ), I'll see if I can condense it here. Thanks especially to mws and smathis for the "other viewpoint" here, and in bearing with all the confusion.

My own disconnect was that I was thinking of Encounter mode as something you engage when you need tight tracking of time and sequence: typically this would mean combat, an intensive debate, or some such. Story mode would cover all the rest.

I wasn't under the illusion that Encounter mode was only for combat. But I did think that Encounter mode "turns" needed to be fairly short units of time.

This resulted in lots of frustration, since of course my players wanted to use Actions to do stuff in what I considered to be Story mode... and there was no mention of how Action cards would work there in the rules. Leading me to think that the game requires house rules in order to function; with my interpretation of Encounter vs Story mode, a decision must be made on how they work, otherwise you can't play much other than combat and the ilk.

Much frustration, gnashing of teeth and forum debates ensued.

Recent input made me realize that the design intent is very probably that the bulk of the game takes place in Encounter mode; in every situation where the PCs are doing something, anything... that's Encounter mode. Story mode is only for brief narrative interludes, scene transitions and such. A "turn" during combat may only take some seconds, but outside that it may stretch to cover minutes, hours or even days.

This solves many (though not all) of the problems. The question of whether Action cards can be used outside of Encounter mode becomes quite unimportant, since you very rarely leave Encounter mode at all. If in some rare case it becomes a factor, it's quite easily handled by giving a few extra dice to PCs with relevant Actions available (Call of the Wild during a long "scene transition" Story scene, or some such).

So now Actions work as written... only the actual time taken by a "turn" flexes (a lot!). So while an Invocation might take just a few turns during combat or other crisis situation, it might take hours at other times. In some cases this can be explained away by various factors ("the gods don't respond that well when it's not an emergency!"), in other cases you might run into bad problems in trying to decide what the actual turn length should be. It can be a bit rough on the GM, in that sense.

So sure, you might use Assess the Situation outside combat... but it would take a lot more real time. How much more? Well, that's the "problem" I noted above.

This interpretation of the rules and rule intent (and for now it's just that, an interpretation) does have the problem that it leaves a lot of this up to total GM fiat. In some cases it's not a problem... the scene itself will give the GM some cues to durations. In other cases it's a headscratcher.

The biggest problem, I think, is the healing invocations. How long those take (i.e. how often in real time you allow them) has a huge impact on gameplay. And right now we have no guidelines, each GM must make up some house rule to cover it. That's something I hope FFG will clarify: what's the design intent "healing speed" of healing invocations?

Most other actions that come to mind aren't that critical in the time department, and are easier for the GM to rule. Some guidelines would of course help there, too. Ideally, we'd have some keywords on the cards to give clues to their speed outside "fast turn" situations. Maybe we'll get something like that, later.

Anyway, I'll have to retract my stance that this game requires house rules. With the above interpretation of "you're almost always in Encounter mode", a lot of things work out as long as you are very flexible with what a "turn" means in real gameworld time. Action card use outside Encounters becomes so rare that it's not something that hinders normal play.

So. In my mind the missing pieces are hints on what "turn length" should typically be for various sorts of actions in different context, with the healing Invocations probably needing a separate ruling and guidelines (because for them, the time used can become very critical). Ideally, we'd have keywords on the cards to help figure this stuff out.

If you read the section on Modes of Play on P5 of the rulebook there is direct reference to using actions in story mode.

P5 - "Story mode is used to resolve actions an play out scenes where timing and the order in which the scene's participants act are not essential to resolve the scene."

P6 - "When the game is being played in story mode, the players generally have their characters act in whatever order they choose, reacting to the GM's descriptions and performing actions as needed."

It doesn't offer any advice on how to use them, but it is clear on the fact that they can be used. There's some excellent suggestions on this thread, but I think I'll play it by ear as long as it fits. I won't run into the key issues of healing and spells as my group has no wizards or priests but I think you can keep this in check with judicious use of misfortune dice for the persistent god-botherer.

Personally, I'm pleased this has come up because I was struggling to imagine the point at which my Burgher would use Big City Bravado - whereas he can have it running in general city encounters as timing and order aren't important.

The topic of this thread is something which created quite a debate during our today's session. We were playing the some investigation encounter, pretty much in story mode all the time. Before I had houseruled that the players can remove recharge tokens from actions in the end of each act. Ok, this didn't work as it would have crippled the celestial wizard from using his spells. Not fun. Then I also realized that they had a lot of actions, like Honeyed Words, which give bonus to the group while the actions are recharging. If played by the book this would give them bonuses forever, which is kinda stupid.

This is something I'd love to have some more input from the more experienced Gamemasters. How do you handle this? I'm thinking of forgetting the recharge tokens in story mode alltogether and just add stress/fatigue if someone uses some action excessively. Hmmmmmm...

How do you do it?