Hi all

I'm running a mixed game with careers from all 3 lines. Recently the only character playing a Jedi asked me about using his downtime to train (using the blast helmet and remote ala Luke in New Hope . These are actually listed in Keeping the Peace , and the helmet includes the text "At the GM's discretion, training while wearing such a helmet might help a character to develop his perception of the Force that shapes and guides the universe around him.").

The player pointed out that other characters in the party are spending their downtime to better themselves (crafting, building contact networks, buying gear, etc.), while he, as a relatively ascetic Jedi, would almost certainly be meditating and training, but unlike the other characters is getting no mechanical advantage for having done this.

I was wondering about letting him take some sort of check in order to generate small amounts of additional XP...but that seems like a really dangerous precedent to set. However, I do broadly agree with him that he should be able to use his downtime to train, just as other characters use their downtime to craft etc.

Any thoughts?

Thanks in advance.

Well, with regards to crafting, the other PCs are spending resources (credits) to purchase the raw materials and then spending their time building those items. They're also making skill checks, and there's no assurance the result of those skill checks are going to be as beneficial as the players might like, or even be successful.

At most, I might award the player a 5XP bonus at the end of an adventure for playing to his character, an ascetic that spends a lot of time meditating and contemplating their navels the Will of the Force during their downtime.

Alternatively, if you're really set on giving this guy some sort of perk, perhaps let him make Knowledge: Lore checks to gain some deeper understanding of the Force, which translates into the occasional 5XP discount on learning a new Force power (especially if he doesn't have access to a Mentor) or learning one of the more expensive Force power upgrades, but with the cost never dropping below 5XP. Perhaps set the DC at Average as the base, then add 1 setback for every 5 XP that the power/upgrade would normally cost. However, only let them do this once per adventure, and not once per session!

Are those other characters only crafting for themselves and using contact networks only for themselves?

If so, that is the more concerning issue.

Crafting turns credits into improvements, at a rate limited by time and rarity.

Buying gear turns credits into improvements, at a rate limited by rarity.

Building contact networks is a bit hard to quantify, but isn't a direct improvement to dice pools.

Giving additional xp I'd consider a dangerous step. However, there are other ways you could approach this, such as giving roleplaying bonuses for how all the players are playing their characters, which could include this (though giving it every time for the same action wouldn't be good), or you could give boost die on the next roll made to sense the Force perhaps.

Another possibility which has been applied slightly differently by the GM of one of the games I play in: if he adequately RP's the meditation/training, during that session or the next, provide him a "personal" Destiny point. Mechanics are the same as the group Destiny pool, but only he can choose to flip it from light to dark, and the GM can only flip from dark to light to impact that player.

He's looking at spending xp like pressing a button on a vending machine. When he spends xp and raises his Skills and Talents, practicing is what he does, playing out scenarios in his head, etc. He's already narratively doing that.

Crafting items is something he can do, anyone can if that's a path they choose, of course if a GM is giving PCs gobs of time to waste on crafting you're already walking down a dangerous path I think. The crafting rules work a lot better when PCs have to use it to replace things they need, like someone got a leg blown off and now they need to scrounge parts to make a prosthetic. As opposed to playing Star Wars mmo item assembly line.

Buying items? He can't buy items? Sorry, Jedi don't whine, he needs to hero up and stop sniveling I think.

It's typical for training to result in a reduction of the XP cost of relevant force powers. In a situation like this it would be reasonable to give a 5 XP discount on a power that fits the theme of the training method.

22 hours ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

They're also making skill checks, and there's no assurance the result of those skill checks are going to be as beneficial as the players might like, or even be successful.

...

Alternatively, if you're really set on giving this guy some sort of perk, perhaps let him make Knowledge: Lore checks to gain some deeper understanding of the Force, which translates into the occasional 5XP discount on learning a new Force power (especially if he doesn't have access to a Mentor) or learning one of the more expensive Force power upgrades, but with the cost never dropping below 5XP. Perhaps set the DC at Average as the base, then add 1 setback for every 5 XP that the power/upgrade would normally cost. However, only let them do this once per adventure, and not once per session!

This is sort of what I was thinking - having him make a skill check (Lore, or maybe Discipline) to gain a small amount of bonus XP, or a discount of some sort.

TBH though, I hadn't thought about the mentor. Initially I dismissed it because it seems to be designed as a party resource, and since he's the only Jedi in the party he would have been the only one benefiting...but then, that's exactly what I'm suggesting anyway. So that might be an option.

20 hours ago, Nytwyng said:

Another possibility which has been applied slightly differently by the GM of one of the games I play in: if he adequately RP's the meditation/training, during that session or the next, provide him a "personal" Destiny point. Mechanics are the same as the group Destiny pool, but only he can choose to flip it from light to dark, and the GM can only flip from dark to light to impact that player.

1

Not gonna lie, this feels like just one extra thing to keep track of at the table.

19 hours ago, 2P51 said:

He's looking at spending xp like pressing a button on a vending machine. When he spends xp and raises his Skills and Talents, practicing is what he does, playing out scenarios in his head, etc. He's already narratively doing that.

Crafting items is something he can do, anyone can if that's a path they choose, of course if a GM is giving PCs gobs of time to waste on crafting you're already walking down a dangerous path I think. The crafting rules work a lot better when PCs have to use it to replace things they need, like someone got a leg blown off and now they need to scrounge parts to make a prosthetic. As opposed to playing Star Wars mmo item assembly line.

Buying items? He can't buy items? Sorry, Jedi don't whine, he needs to hero up and stop sniveling I think.

I agree with you that spending XP is, essentially, the application of training. I guess the point is that he is actively spending his downtime training (if one can "actively" do anything in downtime) rather than choosing to acquire other benefits that are spelled out in the rules. To my mind, that's good roleplaying, and I feel that some sort of reward is in order. (And sure, anyone can craft items, but the party has a seriously min-max-y mechanic, so it would be a bit redunant for the Jedi to have a go at this. Plus, as previously mentioned, not in keeping with his character, thematically.)

The reason the PCs have "gobs of time" is that I'm deliberately running relatively standalone sessions (because which players are available is highly variable). The sessions are linked to each other, but in order to account for a) verisimilitude and b) why different characters are present, I generally leave at minimum a few days between each adventure.

And you're right, the "buying items" point was misleading - of course he can buy items. Admittedly he's choosing not to, but that's beside the point.

Is the crafter just crafting for themselves or for the rest as well ?

Mine has certainly just made my party's Jedi some decent kit, and will be helping him with skilled assistance when he finally gets his hands on a lightsaber crystal.

Are you happy if other characters practice skills and get free xp too ?

Or of course just award some xp occasionally to all players for good roleplaying.

One idea if he wants something more to do with his time is to train an apprentice? That could be fairly rewarding use of time that ties into self training.

1 hour ago, Darzil said:

Is the crafter just crafting for themselves or for the rest as well ?

Mine has certainly just made my party's Jedi some decent kit, and will be helping him with skilled assistance when he finally gets his hands on a lightsaber crystal.

2

The crafter is willing to craft for other members of the party. The issue is that the Jedi doesn't really benefit from crafted items - he's very much of the Chirrut Îmwe school of force-user.

1 hour ago, LordBritish said:

One idea if he wants something more to do with his time is to train an apprentice? That could be fairly rewarding use of time that ties into self training.

So, this is interesting. Not practical right now, because the character is still a bit too junior (still an apprentice himself), but was something I had not considered for the future. Thanks!

Well, one way to look at the downtime, is time spent to make the lives of the PC's easier. The ones who are crafting things, are crafting them to give them benefits in upcoming situations. So I don't think it's unreasonable to allow the same for the Jedi, if they feel that their "downtime" is basically being wasted, by comparison.

Perhaps allow them to make a few Discipline rolls of some appropriate difficulty, with a cumulative success amount as the goal, similar to a crafting roll. If they reach the necessary number of successes on the rolls (5 suxx, 10 suxx, whatever you decide), they get a perk for the next session. Perhaps an additional, personal Destiny Point they can flip, independent of the group pool. They can only use it once that session, but it's there for them to use as they see fit. Or, perhaps they gain a boost die or two, on any Fear checks that session, to help them lower the risk of gaining Conflict, and other negative penalties from a failed Fear check result.

Perhaps you give them a single use of a Force power, at the base power version, no upgrades that they don't currently have access to. They get to use Sense once that session, as their meditation and training has helped strengthen their ties to the Force, and it manifests in an unexpected way.

I also like Donovan's idea of occasional discounts on buying Force powers/upgrades. But the other players might get upset with that, seeing it as him basically getting bonus XP when they aren't. Which, in a way, he is. Being able to buy it 5xp sooner, is the same as if you gave him +5xp to buy it anyway.

I personally, would be more than happy to have the XP discount, but your player might want something more immediately useful per session, like the bonuses I suggested above. So I'd talk it over with the player, and see what he would prefer, and which you feel is the most fair.

So when the Force user is jumping through the air and chopping people hither and yon and deflecting blaster bolts you don't think other PCs think that's cool and wish they could do something? He's whining about something other people can do that happens to allow them to shine during downtime and he can't, that's not anyone's problem, including yours, but his, it's called envy.

1 hour ago, 2P51 said:

So when the Force user is jumping through the air and chopping people hither and yon and deflecting blaster bolts you don't think other PCs think that's cool and wish they could do something? He's whining about something other people can do that happens to allow them to shine during downtime and he can't, that's not anyone's problem, including yours, but his, it's called envy.

From some of the other posts, doesn't sound like the PC that the OP is talking about is a 'saber monkey, but rather an actual monk-monk instead of a wuxia-styled Cheddar Monk.

Regardless, everyone has their own thing to do and a crafter's has a bit more of a narrative play slant than some. I still wouldn't give the PC something for free outside their career/spec because they envy what someone else is doing in their downtime. I would point out the directions they can advance their character to have more downtime play options themselves as opposed to just giving them something just cuz they are jealous of the other kid's marbles.

5 hours ago, edwardavern said:

The crafter is willing to craft for other members of the party. The issue is that the Jedi doesn't really benefit from crafted items - he's very much of the Chirrut Îmwe school of force-user.

So, this is interesting. Not practical right now, because the character is still a bit too junior (still an apprentice himself), but was something I had not considered for the future. Thanks!

In the case of the former, theres still plenty of use one can get out of crafting basic items like staffs and the like. Cirrut wasn't technophobic to the extent of using a really advanced bow that could shoot down starcraft, pretty much those kind of custom jobs and refinement of simple items and clothing can still be done.

And true, though it's worth mentioning that there aren't any experienced people around these days, sometimes an apprentice is literally the only teacher available.

I kinda agree, at best I would give a discount to force powers if he is quite descriptive with his meditations but thats it. Going into pathfinder could give a companion on which to train however, perhaps he could obtain a pet while advancingh imself.

12 hours ago, edwardavern said:

Not gonna lie, this feels like just one extra thing to keep track of at the table.

Fair answer.

For what it's worth, while I've only been on the player side of the personal Destiny point setup, it doesn't seem to have presented a problem.

What your player seems to be coming up against is the double advancement system in this game. As in, you can better your character with both XP and credits. Which tends to be the case in most systems, but with the attachments, modding and then especially crafting this is especially pronounced in this game.

I still wouldn't just give him XP for meditating. I might, miiiight, give him a 5 xp cutback on purchasing new force powers, as if he had a master teaching him.

16 hours ago, 2P51 said:

I would point out the directions they can advance their character to have more downtime play options themselves...

Do you have good Jedi examples of this? One really obvious one for me is the Foresee Power, which could easily be used during downtime, but I'd be interested in other suggestions.

14 hours ago, LordBritish said:

And true, though it's worth mentioning that there aren't any experienced people around these days, sometimes an apprentice is literally the only teacher available.

My campaign is set in the Old Republic, so there are lots of teachers still around.

1 hour ago, Kymrel said:

What your player seems to be coming up against is the double advancement system in this game. As in, you can better your character with both XP and credits.

Yes, this is what I was trying to say, but wasn't able to condense into a single thought. Thanks!

I would not give him any XP, never. XPs are earned by Jedi as they are for any career: by playing.

I would use his meditations as adventure hooks for the next or upcoming adventures. I would use a mental list of which benefits might come in handy in the next sessions.

The Jedi could sence the location where a contact gives the incentives for the next adventure. Other times the Jedi sences that one of his mates is in danger and you use some advantages to save him/her in the next adventure. And so on...

I also liked the suggestion of the one light side token (personal or group), the pet-thing (incorporated into one of the next adventures when it is appropiate, but he could have strange feelings beforehand), the possibilities are endless.

Also I would not give a benefit every session / adventure. Sometimes the Force has something to tell you, sometimes not.

Good luck!

For anyone in my group who wants to do downtime training or research etc. I get them to tell me what they want to do, then get them to roll on it. The difficulty is set by the amount of time spent training (short times get harder difficulties, longer times get easier difficulties). Every uncancelled success gets them a Boost die to add to a roll involving that check. Any triumphs allow them to upgrade or downgrade the difficulty of a relevant check once. I ignore advantages for this as it just over-complicates things. For uncancelled threat I usually inflict very minor strain on the PC.

Eg. Someone wants to read up on the Outer Rim during a short hyperspace jump. Player takes a formidable Knowledge Outer Rim check. They score 1 success 2 threat. They get one boost die to add to whatever knowledge outer rim checks they make once they arrive. They also suffer 1 strain. Narratively it works out as the player reading some stuff off a datapad and getting a slight headache from reading in bad light

I have no Jedi in my party but of I did and they wanted to train with the helmet, lightsaber and remote, I would add boosts to lightsaber combat or any other relevant skill/check you could come up with

One option could be to come up with some attunement rules. So instead crafting there would be different options for attunement.

Another could be to let him build contacts. You don't need credits to upgrade gear when you help people out and the help you by upgrading your stuff during the down time.

Another idea I had. Perhaps, if the Jedi PC succeeds at a meditation roll during his downtime, in the vein of the bonus dice on the next session, they get to reroll their Force die when activating a Force power. Thematically, if say, the Jedi is trying to become One with the Force, and strengthen their ties to the Light side, the mechanical result would be this reroll chance. So if the pips come up Dark Side, they can instead, try and roll them again, in the hopes of getting some Light Side pips to use. They can still always decline to use the power, but it would be helpful in a pinch.

I deal with this as a training issue. I normally don't allow a character to learn new force skills without a mentor, or personal experience as to how it works. I would allow him a "crafting" roll (based on Knowledge (Lore)) to allow him to spend XP on a previously unknown Force Skill. I might also allow "crafting" to pick up a force talent (that they spend XP on) that is not on their tree, similar to the mechanic for Battle Scars. That hasn't come up yet, so I haven't really thought about how that should work.

39 minutes ago, Edgookin said:

I deal with this as a training issue. I normally don't allow a character to learn new force skills without a mentor, or personal experience as to how it works. I would allow him a "crafting" roll (based on Knowledge (Lore)) to allow him to spend XP on a previously unknown Force Skill. I might also allow "crafting" to pick up a force talent (that they spend XP on) that is not on their tree, similar to the mechanic for Battle Scars. That hasn't come up yet, so I haven't really thought about how that should work.

I would point out, that there is precedent for someone naturally learning Force powers.

1. The FFG books do say that this is a way someone could learn Force powers, that having a Mentor or Holocron isn't 100% necessary.
2. We see Luke learn how to use Move (in the ice cave on Hoth), despite zero evidence that Obi-Wan taught him how to do it.

4 hours ago, KungFuFerret said:

I would point out, that there is precedent for someone naturally learning Force powers.

1. The FFG books do say that this is a way someone could learn Force powers, that having a Mentor or Holocron isn't 100% necessary.
2. We see Luke learn how to use Move (in the ice cave on Hoth), despite zero evidence that Obi-Wan taught him how to do it.

With Luke in ESB, you have to remember that there was a three year gap between ANH and ESB, during which he had been seeking out knowledge of the Force and training between missions, and we can gather that Obi-Wan was probably in contact with him periodically to guide that training to a certain extent. Thus, it's not likely that Luke just suddenly figured out how to use Move out of nowhere in the Wampa Cave. He had most likely been practicing it for a while.