On these boards, I recall Mindlink being dismissed when it came out and the SF was maligned quite a bit upon its release.

After being out fir quite some time, I now see lots of praise for backdraft and Quickdraw plus many Mindlink nerf treads.

Is that a common thing for earlier XW waves? I've played a few minis games where I've also been active on forums about them and this seems more stark here with these examples than I've seen outside XW.

There is a pattern on this board: release comes out, collective "wisdom" declares it DOA. Some creative person figures out that actually with the right combination of upgrades, X upgrade works and places well at major tournament. Then the collective "wisdom" decides that X is now "viable" and in a fit of uncreative group think, they ape the successful build to the exclusion of all others and you get tournaments with a very high incidence of identical lists. Everyone moans that X is broken.

Repeat the cycle every few months.

Welcome to X Wing miniatures game.

For the tie sf, lightweight frame really helps survivability

I mostly agree with BlodVargarna.

In the case of the TIE/sf, I was fascinated by that ship from its very release and tried to get it to work from the get-go. To me, what made the TIE/sf work for me was Lightweight Frame. Particularly against TLT, but also for general longevity, LWF really makes the ship work and not just melt.

For the tie sf, lightweight frame really helps survivability

Big reason why mindlink didn't have a whole lot of success is the only scum ships with ept's who were proven to be any good when it was released were brobots and it's horrible on them. Now it works well because it ships like Lancers, Jumpmasters and Starfighters don't have to k-turn as often and they have a lot of green moves. It also helps the ace ships like Fenn and OT deal with being blocked which typically spells death for aces.

Quickdraw's success can more be attributed to everyone pegging him as an ace hunter when he was released with ptl and baffle. Once they found that didn't work he kinda got put on the shelf but now people are seeing if you fly him differently he's actually a pretty efficient ship, LWF definitely has helped too.

Before the Lancer and Protectorate, it was just seen as an alright card, with a few people calling it a "sleeper card".

But the Lancer and Protectorate are kind of OP themselves and work real well with Mindlink, so this is why it's a big deal now.

And now that people realize it's a big deal, they're trying it on other things like Scyks and realizing it's pretty good in general.

3 minutes ago, Turbo Toker said:

Before the Lancer and Protectorate, it was just seen as an alright card, with a few people calling it a "sleeper card".

But the Lancer and Protectorate are kind of OP themselves and work real well with Mindlink, so this is why it's a big deal now.

And now that people realize it's a big deal, they're trying it on other things like Scyks and realizing it's pretty good in general.

How are the Fang and the Lancer OP?

It took the lancer and protectorate to really make mindlink shine, but it was still very strong. Majority of people just dont try new things until it is proven in combat with a big win at regionals, etc. Hilarious to go back and read the old threads from a year ago about mindlink.

The Tie S/F was weak on release. It took LWF to make the S/F survivable in this meta. Now they are 3 green dice basically since nobody flies much 2 attack primary these days aside from jumpmasters. This one simple card made them great (wish X-wings got the same love).

So yeah, on release, these ships/upgrades were not fantastic, just good.

10 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

How are the Fang and the Lancer OP?

Marginally easier to kill Soontir with permanent Prockets for 3 less points, Fat Han for 40 points.

1 minute ago, Turbo Toker said:

Marginally easier to kill Soontir with permanent Prockets for 3 less points, Fat Han for 40 points.

So, two legitimate arc types with their own short comings you didn't mention.

3 minutes ago, Turbo Toker said:

Marginally easier to kill Soontir with permanent Prockets for 3 less points, Fat Han for 40 points.

Asajj is far from being fat han for 40 points. She gets some free evades, but no always guaranteed (if you're out of the mobile arc or at range 3), no regen potential (if your han has r2d2), no gunner (if your han has gunner instead of r2), no han rerolls, no PWT..

And since fenn is seen most often with mindlink, no double reposition

41 minutes ago, blairbunke said:

Big reason why mindlink didn't have a whole lot of success is the only scum ships with ept's who were proven to be any good when it was released were brobots and it's horrible on them. Now it works well because it ships like Lancers, Jumpmasters and Starfighters don't have to k-turn as often and they have a lot of green moves. It also helps the ace ships like Fenn and OT deal with being blocked which typically spells death for aces.

Quickdraw's success can more be attributed to everyone pegging him as an ace hunter when he was released with ptl and baffle. Once they found that didn't work he kinda got put on the shelf but now people are seeing if you fly him differently he's actually a pretty efficient ship, LWF definitely has helped too.

Not to mention Deadeye (another dead EPT lol pun ) was dominating when Atani Mindlink came out. Then came the first batch of nerfs against Jumpmasters followed by the first pen & ink errata for a ship that was already out (Tactician errata was before the YV-666 was released). With Deadeye officially dead again the EPT slot was free again, adaptability is not that good of a card even when it is free. So that's when mindlink started to become a thing.

57 minutes ago, BlodVargarna said:

There is a pattern on this board: release comes out, collective "wisdom" declares it DOA. Some creative person figures out that actually with the right combination of upgrades, X upgrade works and places well at major tournament. Then the collective "wisdom" decides that X is now "viable" and in a fit of uncreative group think, they ape the successful build to the exclusion of all others and you get tournaments with a very high incidence of identical lists. Everyone moans that X is broken.

Repeat the cycle every few months.

Welcome to X Wing miniatures game.

I would like to see evidence of any major tournament where there is a "very high incidence" of identical lists. I'm thinking >25% of the tournament is 1 list. I will be both surprised and shocked if you find an example from this/last year, or even before that to be honest.

This is hyperbolic and you know it, it's not as bad as you make it sound.

Paratanni was all over the scene this year. It's a perfect example.

I jumped onto Attani mindlink pretty much right when it came out. I ran Manaroo, Guri, Palob and eventually retired the list after going undefeated through 2 local tournaments and several game nights. I think it was about 14-0 at the time I shelved it.

The fact of the matter is the vast majority of people dismissed it without even trying it due to the shared stress. I was pounding the podium pretty hard for it but people just couldn't get past the shared stress. Attani isn't great on everything but Manaroo with unhinged had 9 greens, a HWK with TLT doesn't need amazing greens, and only Guri struggled with her greens when stress came up. It was easy enough to plan around with a little foresight, and her pilot ability is the best Mindlink insurance, and completely worth the limited greens. Even if all 3 ships were stressed or bumped I'd still get 6 actions between the 3 ships (Guri ability for 3 focus, Palob for another token, TL from Manaroo's K4, Manaroo's ability for another focus).

Whenever I posted about it on here the response was always the same "Nope, your list is bad because stress exists." I didn't get it. 3 ships with two actions each and a stress is exactly the same as PtL, but I spent 3 points on that efficiency instead of 9. On turns without stress I had 9 actions a turn. On top of that, Palob stealing tokens and Guri's sensor jammer drained the actions of the opposing squadron. Nobody cared, it was just bad because they said so, and very few were willing to listen to any arguments to the contrary.

TIE/sf I'm not as familiar with because I don't play imperials, but I recall a lot of imperial players complaining about its "horrible" (actually quite average) dial and "horrible" (actually quite average) stat line. Lightweight frame definitely gave it a shot in the arm though.

1 hour ago, VanderLegion said:

For the tie sf, lightweight frame really helps survivability

So I have heard, my dice don't care though!

I never really cared much about Attani, because i dont play Scum and never bought a Jumpmaster.

The TIE/SF, though, i was really big on when it came out. Granted, i dont play Imperials much, but it was a really fun ship and i liked flying it. I might have mained them, were i not a Rebel, and started maining ARC-170s.

My instinct is to disagree immediately with anyone who declares a ship or card DOA.

3 hours ago, Turbo Toker said:

And now that people realize (Mindlink)'s a big deal, they're trying it on other things like Scyks and realizing it's pretty good in general.

The first time I saw Mindlink in play it was a Quad Mango Scyk list. Pre errata, so they didn't have the extra hull. That list did a _lot_ of work!

I'm not sure why anyone slept on the SF. I mean: it happened, but seemed dumb at the time and seems really silly now. The SF is a T-70 at T-65 prices. With a better dial. And a rear arc.

Granted: it took Heroes of the Resistance for it to get the upgrades it needs to really shine. Pattern Analyzer or Primed Thrusters add a whole lot of versatility to the ship. And Mark 2 Engine was key (until we got Light weight frame).

But the potential was simply always there for this ship to be amazing. It just took people seeing it on its own terms to get there.

Other cards and ships released, that's what happened. Has anyone seen mindlink list based on ships that were available before it's release?

Well, I have - twice actually. One was my own attempt to use it on Brobots. It was kinda alright actually, but it required a lot of planning to work and I wouldn't say it was better than other IG builds, so I dropped it.

The other was my friend trying to spam Mangler Scyks with mindlink. It was kinda scary and surprisingly hard to kill. Unfortunately at some point you kinda need to turn your ships around and that's when his plan fell apart. Without access to green hard turns the scyks were kinda scrwed whenever one of them attempted to k-turn. And frequently several of them did want to do that. As a result in the long term the list simply didn't work.

To sum it up, before the jumpmasters hit the shelves there was literally nothing that scum had that would make Mindlink attractive. And after jumpmasters did launch their EPT would be occupied by Deadeye for quite a few months. It was only when Deadeye was nerfed and Lancers/Fangs appeared that we really saw what mindlink can do.

As for TIE/sf, generics pretty much collect the dust. Backdraft is difficult to coordinate with anything else in the imperial list, save perhaps a decimator, which is why it still doesn't see that much use. Quickdraw works mostly because nobody wants to shoot him, especially since lightweight frame became available. He's not quite as gimmicky as people thought he would be at the time so in that regard at least, forum pundits were wrong. They were spot on for most of the other things though.

For the sf, Lightweight Frame.

For Mindlink, the release of the Shadow Caster and Fang, and the nerfing of the Jumpmaster's other better options.

4 hours ago, ThalanirIII said:

I would like to see evidence of any major tournament where there is a "very high incidence" of identical lists. I'm thinking >25% of the tournament is 1 list. I will be both surprised and shocked if you find an example from this/last year, or even before that to be honest.

This is hyperbolic and you know it, it's not as bad as you make it sound.

Dunno about 25% of the whole TOURNAMENT being one list, but pre-nerf several large tournaments had over 25% of the CUT as identical lists. When 3 of the top 4 lists in a large tournament are identical, there's something wrong

3 hours ago, Dwing said:

So I have heard, my dice don't care though!

That's why I also run sensor cluster

These boards often fall into toxic cycles. Look at the topics that people are talking about: Complaining about the 2 minute trailer of Episode 8, already making statements asserting what the entire storyline will be; complaining about the nerfs that recently happened; calling for new nerfs to things that people don't like; asking for buffs to ships that people want to be better. This forum lives on negative energy; players just complain about what they don't like, rather than sharing tactics and insight on how to make lists they like work. It is much harder to think of a positive thing to say than it is to complain about something that is bothering you. This shows in the blanket-statementing that happens upon the release of a ship where players try to make it fit into a previous role rather than imagine a new use for a new ship.

What happened with Mindlink and the TIE /sf was much of the same, but the advent of new upgrades post release has also opened a lot of options. I think the source of the problem is that when you have already practiced extensively with a list and you are close to the skill ceiling of the squad it can feel like stepping down in efficiency when they try to learn a new list. Rather than sticking with it and learning the intricacies of the new ships/lists they dismiss it as being a garbage ship and put it away.

The same thing happened with the K wing, and now it is a stable ship in the meta.

16 hours ago, BlodVargarna said:

There is a pattern on this board: release comes out, collective "wisdom" declares it DOA. Some creative person figures out that actually with the right combination of upgrades, X upgrade works and places well at major tournament. Then the collective "wisdom" decides that X is now "viable" and in a fit of uncreative group think, they ape the successful build to the exclusion of all others and you get tournaments with a very high incidence of identical lists. Everyone moans that X is broken.

Repeat the cycle every few months.

Welcome to X Wing miniatures game.

Actually this is bull.

In both cases a key component to make the upgrade/ship work came in a following wave (Lightweight Frame, Protectorate/Lancer dials). The judgement upon release that it was pretty bad was correct, as was the immediate response when the following wave was spoiled that it could make them good.

What DOES happen is people who want to feel superior will come along later and post revisionist 'aren't you all idiots, not like me though I'm smart and knew all along they'd be good even though I didn't know the things that made them good existed' posts to feed their ego.