An Argument Clinic, or How to Disagree with Civility

By Ryoshun Higoka, in Legend of the Five Rings: The Card Game

After seeing some of the discussions on this board over the last few days (I know, I know, welcome to the Internet), it occurred to me that such a passionate fanbase might do well to take a look and, like true courtiers, retain our face and honor. During this post, I will only be using Rokugan-based examples, because using real-world examples can be inflammatory for some folks and that's not the intent here. I would encourage anyone responding to also limit their responses to Rokugan terms.

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An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition. I think this, I back it up with this series of facts, I present it to you. You look at it critically, ask for clarification or additional supporting information, and draw your conclusion based on what's presented to you. Too often, we look at the word "argument" as the word "fight". Civil disagreements and arguments are how human beings explore knowledge and come to mutual understanding; fights are how we cut off avenues of communication and refuse to understand another person's viewpoint. If you have been told since you were small that the color of the sky is green, you will naturally be challenged by the first outside view that posits that the color is, in fact, blue. To the "blue" person, this is indisputable proof based on evidence. To the "green" person, this is a radical challenge to a deeply held belief. If "blue" starts screaming at "green" about how stupid this is, "green" will have no interest in ever believing "blue", and you get an intractable issue - no matter how demonstrably wrong that view is.


Any debate naturally starts with two opposing viewpoints, and usually - as in the "blue and green sky" example, those are beliefs that people are attached to, either factually or emotionally. It's important to realize the following: at the start of the debate, both viewpoints are equally valid to the people maintaining them, and it is up to both sides to be open to the viewpoints of the other. If both sides approach the argument with the idea that their viewpoint is intractable and cannot be changed, than no progress can happen. The "green" person must be willing to accept factual evidence, and the "blue" person must be willing to understand the background of someone raised from birth to see the sky as green. All arguments take place in the realm of nuance; broad statements usually lead to one of several logical fallacies that can derail the conversation or prevent understanding. Here are a few of the most common fallacies:


Arguments usually have to follow a clear chain of evidence; a Phoenix Clan shugenja dropped an egg on the floor, this is why there's a broken egg on the floor. It cannot, however, follow the chain backwards - this is called a "post hoc, ergo propter hoc" ("if, then, because of") fallacy. There's a broken egg on the floor, therefore a Phoenix Clan shugenja must have dropped it.


There's also the fallacy of limited evidence, often called the "correlation equals causation" fallacy: every time a Kabuki Troupe passes through our town, a rainstorm follows. Therefore, Kabuki Troupes cause rainstorms. The Kabuki Troupe is much more likely to simply be passing through that particular town during the rainy season.


The next few fallacies are often called "deliberate fallacies" and have to do with people who get defensive in a debate and rely on some tactics that really don't help, and in fact hurt, understanding between the parties. A deliberate fallacy relies on the manipulation of the debating opponent and the audience to prove a point that they cannot prove factually.


The first is often called the Strawman argument. Now, it's important to understand that a Strawman Argument has a very specific definition - just because someone disagrees with you does not make their argument a Strawman. In order to be a Strawman argument, the person must make a declaration that misrepresents the current scope of the argument and re-frames it in such a way as to make arguing against it cast a bad light upon their opponent. For example, a Scorpion and a Unicorn are arguing; the Unicorn states that some of the taxes on the peasantry should be eased so that their people can make it through a particularly harsh winter, and the Scorpion responds with "Oh, so you hate the Empire and want to see it fail? Things are hard all over and you should do your part, just like everyone else." The Unicorn was presenting an argument for the betterment of their people, and that argument gets shut down by a Strawman arguing a different - although tangentially related - point that the Unicorn can't possibly respond to in a good way.


The most insidious of the deliberate fallacies is sometimes called the Texas Sharpshooter (I guess it would be Tsuruchi sharpshooter in Rokugan), named after the following scenario: a Texas gunman fires ten shots a barn, then goes and draws targets around the bullet-holes, giving himself a bulls-eye every time. This is the practice of starting with a strong viewpoint, removing factual evidence from context, and presenting it plainly to cast an opposing viewpoint in a bad light. Facts are facts, and the manipulation and cherry-picking of statistics is a very dangerous means of convincing others. For example, a Crane courtier dislikes the Lion and wants to discredit them in court. He produces a document that states that the Lion only sent three bushi to assist the Dragon with a Yobanjin incursion, therefore the Lion are shirking their duty to protect the Empire. The document omits the context that the Lion sent their three best Akodo generals and that the Dragon only asked them to send advisors to assist with troop movements, not to send fighting detachments. The facts have been manipulated to cast the Lion in a bad light.


Another bad Tsuruchi sharpshooter is to use cherry-picked facts to make generalizations about entire groups of people; for example, a Phoenix scholar produces a work regarding the state of education in Crab lands. A courtier that already believes that the Crab are much less intelligent than the other clans seizes on that to cast the Crab as brutish savages. The original work by the Phoenix scholar actually finds factual evidence that since the majority of the Crab's economy must go to support the efforts on the Kaiu Wall, they have little left over to spend on education. Due to economic factors, Crab children have less of an educational opportunity than the other clans - this does not reflect on their natural intelligence, simply their ability to access education. By removing the nuance of the Phoenix scholar's work, the courtier has deliberately picked and chosen facts that support that courtier's supposition.


And that brings us to Ad Hominem and Tu Quoque attacks. Put very simply, both of these tactics avoid engaging in the debate by attacking the opposing debater. With an Ad Hominem attack, the person attacks their opponent's character or person, undermining their argument without actually responding to it. For example, after a Yasuki courtier presents an argument for more funding for the Kaiu Wall, an Imperial advisor asks the court whether they should grant anything to someone who has been previously arrested by magistrates and can't even wear a proper robe to court. By attacking the person, not the argument, that advisor undermines their argument instead of responding to it.


Tu Quoque ("you, too") attacks follow the same idea of attacking the debater, but answers criticism with criticism and tries to appeal to people's deep-seated dislike of hypocrisy. Instead of defending their own viewpoint, the Tu Quoque user tries to shift the focus back on their opponent and paint them as a hypocrite. For example, A Lion courtier points out that the Crane courtier in the previous example did not include the pertinent facts from the Dragon's military request, and the Crane responds that the Lion courtier omitted other facts earlier in the debate. While Crane may be right about the earlier omission, it does not mean that the Crane is right to also do the same! This one is particularly tricky, because it's very good at triggering an involuntary emotional response in the audience and the other debater, which usually leads to the dissolving of polite discourse - which, of course, is the whole point of using it.


Finally, there's the use of Anecdotal Fallacy, Poor Argument Fallacy, and Moving the Goalposts. Anecdotal Fallacy is simple to spot but hard to discredit because it's based on opinion, not fact (i.e. a commoner in the Phoenix land states that because he's never seen an Oni, therefore Oni must not exist). It can also fall into the realm of Personal Incredulity - because the speaker finds a subject hard to believe or it unaware of how it works, it must not be true. This is usually used to debate complex subjects that require some background to understand before one can be informed enough to form an opinion. For example, an Asako alchemist has discovered that by mixing a blend of minerals he can create a potent explosive. He is laughed out of court by the argument of "how can rocks burst into flame?". Of course, in this example, he could always show them... but on the Internet we seldom have that luxury.


A Poor Argument occurs when a claim is argued badly and the opponent seizes on that to discredit the entire argument. If a Mantis courtier misspeaks in court, nearly everyone present will use that to discredit her entire position, regardless of how true or good her point was. It's easy to score political points doing this, but it doesn't change the fact that she was raising a valid point. On the Internet, this is often used when somebody misspells a word or a quotation can be removed from context to seem to be contradictory.


Moving the Goalposts is a very frustrating deliberate fallacy because it is impossible to prove anything beyond any doubt, and if you move the goalposts far enough, you can argue against anything, no matter how much factual evidence stacks up against you. A ronin is making a living scamming small villages, claiming to be a powerful Void Shugenja who is capable of reading thoughts and seeing the future. When his abilities were tested by another Shugenja, he was unable to cast even the simplest spell; his response was to shake his head sorrowfully and state that "the kami will only come if enough people have faith in them". The other Shugenja states that he has faith in the kami, just not in the ronin. The ronin responds with a regretful "and that's why they wouldn't come."

Another great Moving the Goalposts example comes from determining "success" and "failure"; let's look at an Ashigaru farm in Lion lands. Their lord has commanded them to have a successful harvest, and they bust their backs harvesting, threshing, and milling. They proudly present the fruits of their labors to their lord, more of a harvest than they'd ever produced before, and the lord sniffs at it, stating that they simply did what he expected, not anything extraordinary, so their harvest was not a success. If anything, by not doing more than expected, it was a failure. By the metric the Ashigaru had set for themselves, though, they absolutely succeeded, but their lord moved the goalposts on them. (Anyone who's ever gone through a performance review has run into that one, amirite?)


There are a lot of other logical fallacies as well (all of which I'll be happy to elaborate on), such as Appealing to Emotion (trying to manipulate the audience's emotions instead of answering the question), The Slippery Slope (if we allow X, then Y will follow!), Shifting the Burden of Proof (ever tried disproving a negative?), asking loaded questions (so, how's the maho going?), the No True Scotsman fallacy (one of my favorites), Disregarded Through Origin (Oh sure, a Unicorn would say that), The Black-or-White Fallacy (something is either this or that and there's no third option), and the Middle Ground Fallacy (I say two plus two is four; you say two plus two is six - therefore, we have to agree that two plus two is five).


So, after all of that, go out and argue! Embrace ideas that are new to you and defend your own, but be sure that you don't fall into (or fall victim to) fallacies just to win an argument. And above all, be civil, because while you might feel like yelling and screaming will get you what you want, it just makes you look like a childish little bakemono. See? An Ad Hominem attack, and we're not even arguing!

I don't know if it will help but it was truly a beautiful attempt !

I have to say this is a great and amazing post, both from the wide breath of information and the in universe style examples. You are a true rokugani!

>.< Awesome thoughts, I suspect only the superior person would read and they are not the problem on the internet. But the superior person can also basically ignore rants and failed arguments. But love the idea that the L5R community can be a life of betterment. Tenets of Bushido are still worthwhile. :D

Well said! Sometimes I feel like I come to the Internet for an argument, and end up walking into Abuse instead!

EDIT: Looks like Xealous beat me to it!

Edited by JJ48

It's also a great way to avoid feeding trolls. "Oh, I can see that you're invoking a deliberate fallacy to attempt to get some heat on this post. I know that I can safely ignore that, as it in no way challenges or disproves my viewpoint."

29 minutes ago, Xealous said:

"An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition!"

"...no it isn't."

I think the problem is that even with all the sound argumentaive tactics, when talking about moral intuitions or otherwise held beliefs, it is pointless to argue, since it will not convince anybody because people will view everything through their conformation bias. Anyway, I also like to share two Youtube videos here on that topic:

and

Just now, Drudenfusz said:

I think the problem is that even with all the sound argumentaive tactics, when talking about moral intuitions or otherwise held beliefs, it is pointless to argue, since it will not convince anybody because people will view everything through their conformation bias. Anyway, I also like to share two Youtube videos here on that topic:

I disagree. I would reject that it is ever pointless to engage in discussion with fellow humans, and counter that even deeply held beliefs can be changed through discussion and recognition of arguing on a false premise. And while "confirmation bias" is tough to get past, it can absolutely be overcome through logic and kindness.

I see your youtube videos (which are good viewing for everyone, by the way) and raise you another:

It's not easy and it's not quick, but enough spreading of understanding and information can change people. They just have to be willing to do the internal work, and with enough support, they can do it.

(And yes, I understand that this could be viewed as an anecdotal fallacy, but it's being used here to illustrate the example, not as proof-positive. The proof comes from the fact that she's not alone in removing herself - with help from discussions with people outside of her immediate sphere - from extremism.)

8 minutes ago, Ryoshun Higoka said:

It's not easy and it's not quick, but enough spreading of understanding and information can change people. They just have to be willing to do the internal work, and with enough support, they can do it.

(And yes, I understand that this could be viewed as an anecdotal fallacy, but it's being used here to illustrate the example, not as proof-positive. The proof comes from the fact that she's not alone in removing herself - with help from discussions with people outside of her immediate sphere - from extremism.)

I am not saying peple cannot change their mind, but that argumentation usually doesn't do the trick, it has to be emotional, like Julia Galef say teaching people to yearn for the sea. Which is why I perfer storytelling, while facts rarely do anything. That is why advertisement also usually tries to appeal to emotions and doesn't care about the facts about a product, and well that is why people keep smoking and such unhealthy habits even though they now rather well the facts about cancer.

On 4/23/2017 at 0:20 PM, Drudenfusz said:

I am not saying peple cannot change their mind, but that argumentation usually doesn't do the trick, it has to be emotional, like Julia Galef say teaching people to yearn for the sea. Which is why I perfer storytelling, while facts rarely do anything. That is why advertisement also usually tries to appeal to emotions and doesn't care about the facts about a product, and well that is why people keep smoking and such unhealthy habits even though they now rather well the facts about cancer.

So this is a great example of an argument. An actual argument, not a fight, not a trolling exercise, but two opposing viewpoints communicating in an attempt to hash things out.

Drudenfusz is stating that facts rarely change minds, and that to get someone to change their mind, you have to appeal to their emotions - that's the premise of the argument. Dru cites a writer on scientific skepticism and rationality, which is known as "invoking an expert". Advertisements and smoking are also cited as examples, building a supporting case. The case is then presented for rebuttal.

At the outset, I don't think that Dru's overall point is incorrect - emotions are ultimately how people make their decisions. The part I reject is her assertion that facts rarely do anything. My argument rests on using data and coherent, calm arguments to bring someone around to question their emotional reaction to a stimulus, thereby getting them to change their mind. Sometimes, simply asking "why?" can be the most powerful weapon in your arsenal.

I'm not familiar with the expert invoked, so I can't respond to that point about teaching people to yearn for the sea. I think that storytelling - which I'm viewing as the relating of personal experience - can be extremely convincing too; however, one has to be careful to not accept anecdote as fact or risk falling into an anecdotal fallacy. If someone miraculously survives falling from a plane with no parachute, that person would be wildly irresponsible to start marketing a series of "I fell from 30,000 feet - and you can too!" materials. It's a great story, but it's not factual evidence that humans are built to do that!

I would rebut the advertisement point with the fact that advertisements are, by their very nature, deceptive practices that most people go into knowing and expecting them to be deceptive. Nobody genuinely thinks that drinking Sprite will allow them to play basketball like LeBron James. Advertisements do get success from appealing to emotional responses - but that's what they're supposed to do. And even then, those ads will still use manipulated data to attempt to appeal to you - "gets (up to) sixty miles to the gallon (when driven under a set of very strict protocols that are nearly impossible to replicate in real road conditions)!"

As for smoking, the statistics on smoking decline yearly, showing that fewer and fewer people are making the choice to smoke, due in very large part to the massive amount of data that shows that it will very likely kill you. If said data did not exist, I would assert that smoking would not show such a decline. The fact that people do keep smoking, despite such evidence, does not counter the fact of decline.

...and that's how you have a good argument! Argument, rebuttal, and assertions that can be proved (or disproved). Whether Dru or I is "right" doesn't matter as much as the actual act of discussion - Dru's assertions made me think about my own, and defend my viewpoint rationally and politely.

We should use some Rokugan examples next...

Edited by Ryoshun Higoka
misspelling

I'm gonna argue a little on the title of this thread. Please defend it if you can. ;)

I don't necessarily disagree with civility. I think civility can be great when making arguments. Sometimes, I get a little heated and I lose my civility, but I never disagree with civility. Civility is right most of the time so how can one disagree with it? I can disagree with rudeness. Rudeness is just rude. It's hard to defend rudeness. Sometimes, I can get a little rude when I disagree with civility. But I don't disagree with civility very often.

10 minutes ago, Sparks Duh said:

I'm gonna argue a little on the title of this thread. Please defend it if you can. ;)

I don't necessarily disagree with civility. I think civility can be great when making arguments. Sometimes, I get a little heated and I lose my civility, but I never disagree with civility. Civility is right most of the time so how can one disagree with it? I can disagree with rudeness. Rudeness is just rude. It's hard to defend rudeness. Sometimes, I can get a little rude when I disagree with civility. But I don't disagree with civility very often.

Sparks is running a wonderful example of the "Ambiguity Fallacy" - thank you, Sparks! This is a fallacy meant to take advantage of wording that can be misinterpreted - anyone who's ever run into a rules lawyer in an RPG knows this one well. He's taken the phrasing "How to Disagree with Civility", intended as "How to Remain Civil While Disagreeing", and interpreted it as "How to Disagree with the Concept of Civility".

First of all, that's funny. Second of all, it's a great example of the Ambiguity Fallacy - it's meant to invoke a response of "well, what I meant was-" followed by the easy gainsaying of "well, you should have been more clear, then!".

I put this up there with the Yasuki merchant who parks his cart under a sign that states "Fine for parking here". When the local magistrate attempts to collect a fine for parking his cart in a clearly marked spot, the Yasuki argues that he thought the sign meant "It's fine to park here".

Oh, Yasuki. I hope the core of your family character remains in L5R2. We need Wily Merchants!

Edited by Ryoshun Higoka
Misspelling
6 minutes ago, Ryoshun Higoka said:

So this is a great example of an argument. An actual argument, not a fight, not a trolling exercise, but two opposing viewpoints communicating in an attempt to hash things out.

Drudenfusz is stating that facts rarely change minds, and that to get someone to change their mind, you have to appeal to their emotions - that's the premise of he argument. Dru cites a writer on scientific skepticism and rationality, which is known as "invoking an expert". Advertisements and smoking are also cited as examples, building a supporting case. The case is then presented for rebuttal.

At the outset, I don't think that Dru's overall point is incorrect - emotions are ultimately how people make their decisions. The part I reject is his assertion that facts rarely do anything. My argument rests on using data and coherent, calm arguments to bring someone around to question their emotional reaction to a stimulus, thereby getting them to change their mind. Sometimes, simply asking "why?" can be the most powerful weapon in your arsenal.

I'm not familiar with the expert invoked, so I can't respond to that point about teaching people to yearn for the sea. I think that storytelling - which I'm viewing as the relating of personal experience - can be extremely convincing too; however, one has to be careful to not accept anecdote as fact or risk falling into an anecdotal fallacy. If someone miraculously survives falling from a plane with no parachute, that person would be wildly irresponsible to start marketing a series of "I fell from 30,000 feet - and you can too!" materials. It's a great story, but it's not factual evidence that humans are built to do that!

I would rebut the advertisement point with the fact that advertisements are, by their very nature, deceptive practices that most people go into knowing and expecting them to be deceptive. Nobody genuinely thinks that drinking Sprite will allow them to play basketball like LeBron James. Advertisements do get success from appealing to emotional responses - but that's what they're supposed to do. And even then, those ads will still use manipulated data to attempt to appeal to you - "gets (up to) sixty miles to the gallon (when driven under a set of very strict protocols that are nearly impossible to replicate in real road conditions)!"

As for smoking, the statistics on smoking decline yearly, showing that fewer and fewer people are making the choice to smoke, due in very large part to the massive amount of data that shows that it will very likely kill you. If said data did not exist, I would assert that smoking would not show such a decline. The fact that people do keep smoking, despite such evidence, does not counter the fact of decline.

...and that's how you have a good argument! Argument, rebuttal, and assertions that can be proved (or disproved). Whether Dru or I is "right" doesn't matter as much as the actual act of discussion - Dru's assertions made me think about my own, and defend my viewpoint rationally and politely.

We should use some Rokugan examples next...

First if you shorten my username, I prefer Drudy and female pronouns, but yeah, I guess some people still think there are no girls on the internet...

But to the actual content: regarding my advertisement argument, well since I didn't actually pulled an expert, but talked about general practise there, your rebuttal, which feels more like outright dismissing is kinda moot. But lets say I would have pulled an actuall authority on that topic, would you then still think you know better then someone who works in that field?

Well, regarding storytelling, I think you missed the point their, of course an anecdote cannot be taken as a fact, that is not how fiction works and pretty much everybody knows that, so why are you trying to imply bad intent here which is something you claimed you would oppose. It lets your argumentation feel dishonest. But I guess that is just because you felt so eager to have a rebuttlal to everything even though you say you think I am not necessarily wrong. So, why try to prove me wrong then in the first place and try not to have an honest discussion where you run with ideas someone else proposes instead of trying to shoot every idea and view down?

Sure, advertisement is decieving, but so is every form of storytelling, still it is what gets peole to change their position, which thusly proves that facts are not needed to convince people to change their position, which means you made my point! Sure, you might not like advertisement, nobody really does, since nobody likes to think they are easy to manipulate and that we are completely in charge of everything we do in our heads. But that is not really the case, simply colours and sounds often trigger emotional or otherwise irrational responses in us that facts simply often don't do. Actually facts can lead to exact the opposite. Knowing how much people pollute their envirounment means that most people care even less since they start thinking it is pointless if just they themselves would chance, which is why environmantal campaigns barely bother with statistics these days and pick a paragon who people want to follow, which is of course again an apeal to emotions, not to logic.

And well, the statistics about the decline of smokers is no evendence in itself, since correlation not causation is. And it ignores other factors completely, that in most countries tabacco products see increaed taxation and thus make it slowly always more expansive.

You see, from a rational point of view every side can have their reasonable arguments, deconstructing what kind of arguments those are will not convince them, it actually might do the exact opposite, it might enrage them even further since you might get perceived as arrogant and dismissive to the content of their arguments.

2 hours ago, JJ48 said:

Well said! Sometimes I feel like I come to the Internet for an argument, and end up walking into Abuse instead!

It's also important to understand the difference between an argument and rhetoric - and argument is meant to convince somebody (or at least get them to question why they think about a particular topic in the way they do). Rhetoric is meant to convince crowds of a message, usually though metaphor and simplified statements. It's the difference between a conference in an Akodo tent about the proper way to attack the left flank and one of those generals addressing his troops before battle. One has nuance and detail, and the other - by necessity - does not.

So when trying to convince masses of people, what you're really looking for is rhetoric - "Their left flank shall fall before us as grain to the harvest!" - as opposed to explaining to each and every individual ashigaru and bushi the tactics involved.

Just now, Ryoshun Higoka said:

It's also important to understand the difference between an argument and rhetoric - and argument is meant to convince somebody (or at least get them to question why they think about a particular topic in the way they do). Rhetoric is meant to convince crowds of a message, usually though metaphor and simplified statements. It's the difference between a conference in an Akodo tent about the proper way to attack the left flank and one of those generals addressing his troops before battle. One has nuance and detail, and the other - by necessity - does not.

So when trying to convince masses of people, what you're really looking for is rhetoric - "Their left flank shall fall before us as grain to the harvest!" - as opposed to explaining to each and every individual ashigaru and bushi the tactics involved.

I would point out that the "somebody" you're trying to convince may or may not be the person you're arguing with, too. An example would be a formal debate, where both sides have pretty much made up their minds and are not going to change, but they still argue with the intent of winning over those watching the debate. To that end, it can still be useful to argue with someone who has made up their mind, when the argument is done in a public setting. (Though, when you start just talking around the same topics again and again, it may be time to call it.)

1 hour ago, Drudenfusz said:

I am not saying people cannot change their mind, but that argumentation usually doesn't do the trick, it has to be emotional, like Julia Galef say teaching people to yearn for the sea. Which is why I perfer storytelling, while facts rarely do anything. That is why advertisement also usually tries to appeal to emotions and doesn't care about the facts about a product, and well that is why people keep smoking and such unhealthy habits even though they know rather well the facts about cancer.

Just now, Drudenfusz said:

First if you shorten my username, I prefer Drudy and female pronouns, but yeah, I guess some people still think there are no girls on the internet...

That's my bad entirely. I tried to avoid pronouns of any sort, since I don't know your gender - an easily corrected mistake. (And no girls on the internet? Whosays that? My daughter would club me about the head and shoulders if I said that!)

2 minutes ago, Drudenfusz said:

But to the actual content: regarding my advertisement argument, well since I didn't actually pulled an expert, but talked about general practise there, your rebuttal, which feels more like outright dismissing is kinda moot. But lets say I would have pulled an actuall authority on that topic, would you then still think you know better then someone who works in that field?

I think I see the misconception here. You had brought up Julia Galef - that was the "invoking an expert" for me. I certainly hope I didn't state that I knew better than an expert in her field!

4 minutes ago, Drudenfusz said:

Well, regarding storytelling, I think you missed the point their, of course an anecdote cannot be taken as a fact, that is not how fiction works and pretty much everybody knows that, so why are you trying to imply bad intent here which is something you claimed you would oppose. It lets your argumentation feel dishonest. But I guess that is just because you felt so eager to have a rebuttlal to everything even though you say you think I am not necessarily wrong. So, why try to prove me wrong then in the first place and try not to have an honest discussion where you run with ideas someone else proposes instead of trying to shoot every idea and view down?

I defined storytelling as "the relating of personal experience", not understanding that you intended it as "fiction". Again, that's a misinterpretation on my part and not implying bad intent to your argument. I had a different connotation of "storytelling" than the one you intended. Now that's cleared up!

6 minutes ago, Drudenfusz said:

Sure, advertisement is decieving, but so is every form of storytelling, still it is what gets peole to change their position, which thusly proves that facts are not needed to convince people to change their position, which means you made my point! Sure, you might not like advertisement, nobody really does, since nobody likes to think they are easy to manipulate and that we are completely in charge of everything we do in our heads. But that is not really the case, simply colours and sounds often trigger emotional or otherwise irrational responses in us that facts simply often don't do. Actually facts can lead to exact the opposite. Knowing how much people pollute their envirounment means that most people care even less since they start thinking it is pointless if just they themselves would chance, which is why environmantal campaigns barely bother with statistics these days and pick a paragon who people want to follow, which is of course again an apeal to emotions, not to logic.

That's very well-put. It's an interesting view on the manipulation of advertisement; instead of bombarding you with facts (as the early adverts of the 20th century did), modern ads are a lot of sounds and colors, carefully calibrated to influence thought. And the part of environmental campaigns is a sobering thought, but one that's well-taken.

9 minutes ago, Drudenfusz said:

And well, the statistics about the decline of smokers is no evendence in itself, since correlation not causation is. And it ignores other factors completely, that in most countries tabacco products see increaed taxation and thus make it slowly always more expansive.

Correlation is not causation, but correlation of relevant facts can point to substantive results. I was only looking at the American decline - which excludes data from countries such as China and India, where there has been an explosion in smoking over the last few decades - but the economic factor is certainly something worth further exploration. A better way to make my point might have been "a steady decline in American smokers seems to indicate that decades of information on cancer are causing said decline." The economic factor of more expensive cigarettes certainly may also contribute.

13 minutes ago, Drudenfusz said:

You see, from a rational point of view every side can have their reasonable arguments, deconstructing what kind of arguments those are will not convince them, it actually might do the exact opposite, it might enrage them even further since you might get perceived as arrogant and dismissive to the content of their arguments.

It certainly can be an unintended side-effect! I've found that simply taking statements as they're presented without assumption of motive (the "assume positive intentions" school of thinking) helps me out when engaging in these discussions. I genuinely believe that most people are rational, good people at heart.

On a personal note, I'm sorry that I offended you. Here I am, talking about civility and proper argument technique, and you showed me that I still need a lot of practice! Thank you for taking the time to respond.

14 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

I would point out that the "somebody" you're trying to convince may or may not be the person you're arguing with, too. An example would be a formal debate, where both sides have pretty much made up their minds and are not going to change, but they still argue with the intent of winning over those watching the debate. To that end, it can still be useful to argue with someone who has made up their mind, when the argument is done in a public setting. (Though, when you start just talking around the same topics again and again, it may be time to call it.)

Agreed. On both points. Circular arguments are immensely frustrating.

Don't worry @Ryoshun Higoka I felt not offended.

I didn't meant to frame Julia Galef as authority, I simply like her views. But would you have then not done the same with posting the video from Megan Phelps-Roper? And don't get me wrong, I liked that video. But in the end both tell stories, one about French officiers and one about her own experiences, should they body dismissed for being anecdotally? I mean they both invoke emotions with their stories, that are the best arguments they can make to get people to change their position, or do you think either of them would be effective if they would have gone straight to the conclusions the presented?

And yes, when I talk about storytelling I mean all kinds of fiction, but do not exclude anecdotes from that list. The books and comics people read, the films and shows people watch, they all have the capacity to inspire us to reinvent us. And they usually do that completely bypassing our higher brain fuctions and go directly for our emotions. So, we take moral lessons and such things from fictions that expand our moral intuitions we already have and that happens completely in our sunconscious mind, no need for argumentation. The high concept appraoches in storytelling are often considered to be artsy fartsy, while the storeis that trigger emotional inversment are usually the ones that stick with people.

Anyway, good talk, even though you now got me argumentate even though I feel that is pointless.

Somebody sent me a message asking what the hell a "No true Scotsman" fallacy was. Essentially, it's another way to move the goalposts on an argument, which works as follows:

The No True Unicorn fallacy:

Moto Ushei states flatly that no Unicorn enjoys the taste of Phoenix sweet-cakes. Moto Unrei speaks up, stating that he rather enjoys Phoenix sweet-cakes, to which Ushei bellows that no true Unicorn enjoys Phoenix sweet-cakes!

It's a way of redefining your argument to remove an inconvenient fact that contradicts your statement; I posit that no Unicorn samurai would eat a Phoenix sweet-cake, therefore any (and all) Unicorn that do eat Phoenix sweet-cakes are removed from my definition of Unicorn samurai. It's a nasty one.

Edited by Ryoshun Higoka
6 minutes ago, Drudenfusz said:

The books and comics people read, the films and shows people watch, they all have the capacity to inspire us to reinvent us. And they usually do that completely bypassing our higher brain fuctions and go directly for our emotions. So, we take moral lessons and such things from fictions that expand our moral intuitions we already have and that happens completely in our sunconscious mind, no need for argumentation. The high concept appraoches in storytelling are often considered to be artsy fartsy, while the storeis that trigger emotional inversment are usually the ones that stick with people.

I really like this. It explains why shows such as Breaking Bad have you rooting for the bad guy! It invokes a set of emotions that make you want to cheer for a meth manufacturer/dealer in a very good way. In your mind, you know making and dealing drugs is bad, but you feel for the guy in his position more so than him being a criminal. haha

11 minutes ago, Drudenfusz said:

The books and comics people read, the films and shows people watch, they all have the capacity to inspire us to reinvent us. And they usually do that completely bypassing our higher brain fuctions and go directly for our emotions. So, we take moral lessons and such things from fictions that expand our moral intuitions we already have and that happens completely in our sunconscious mind, no need for argumentation. The high concept appraoches in storytelling are often considered to be artsy fartsy, while the storeis that trigger emotional inversment are usually the ones that stick with people.

Could not agree more. Just look at how invested we are in a world that has never existed in any tangible form beyond some paper and cardboard!

You should also not forget that it's entirely possible for both parties to be correct, even when applying facts to the situation.

Ooh, another good one from a message: Appeal to the Stone.

This is the tactic of dismissing an argument as ridiculous without providing proof.

Kitsuki magistrate: You were at the inn at the time of the sake-fueled brawl.

Akodo bushi: That's absurd. I wouldn't do that, therefore, it never happened.

That's an "appeal to the stone". Now, for better context, we look to the inverse:

Akodo bushi: That's absurd. I wouldn't do that, therefore, it never happened. Here's five witnesses that place me at the palace, having tea.