2 hours ago, kempy said:

Why don't leave it in hands of local TO/FLGS? Make OFFICIAL two tournament formats, restricted (bans, faster rotation etc) and Open. And your local community will choose. Is it really a problem for FFG?

There's nothing stopping people from playing those cards in casual games or independently run tournaments.

FFG has shown that they will make changes. AGOT CCG-->AGOT LCG--->AGOT LCG 2nd+Rotation. People will have to keep in mind that FFGmight have to do some sort of reset at some point with the game

I played A GOT CCG from the beginning, then the LCG and now 2nd ed. I've played the game for 15 years, there's been a lot of change but the game is still great. This may be the first change of this magnitude in L5R, so I understand that change from CCG to LCG got a lot of the same responses I see here. Unfortunately, almost none of the original players in the meta are still playing but new players have come on board.

Not wholly related to the subject at hand, but one thing that amazes me looking at the history of the game is the L5R as originally designed was supposed to end with Time of the Void. As in, no future expansions. Did set rotation coincide with the choice to continue beyond that point, I wonder?

More on topic: My hope is that with less frequent rotation there will be less need for errata and cards being outright banned. That was pretty common in the later years of the game and made me question how much play-testing was happening before release.

7 minutes ago, Nagori-A-Go-Go said:

More on topic: My hope is that with less frequent rotation there will be less need for errata and cards being outright banned. That was pretty common in the later years of the game and made me question how much play-testing was happening before release.

I think you have that backwards. The more frequent the rotation is, the less you need errata or a ban-list.

2 minutes ago, slowreflex said:

I think you have that backwards. The more frequent the rotation is, the less you need errata or a ban-list.

Is that the case? So much of the errata during my time came with the release of new base sets having unintended interaction with the previous dual-bugged cards.
The other issue I took with the old game's rotations were how AEG used it as an opportunity to make major rule revisions. Starting with Lotus it felt like some major part of how the game was played got an overhaul. I haven't seen 2Ed GoT yet, but was that what happened there?

1 minute ago, Nagori-A-Go-Go said:

Is that the case? So much of the errata during my time came with the release of new base sets having unintended interaction with the previous dual-bugged cards.
The other issue I took with the old game's rotations were how AEG used it as an opportunity to make major rule revisions. Starting with Lotus it felt like some major part of how the game was played got an overhaul. I haven't seen 2Ed GoT yet, but was that what happened there?

So, what I'm referring to is that if you have "broken" cards, the quicker you rotate them out, the better. Also, the quicker the rotation, the less total cards you have, and that decreases the probability of having un-intended combos.

I'm not familiar with old L5R though, so don't really understand your example.

41 minutes ago, SlackerHacker said:

There's nothing stopping people from playing those cards in casual games or independently run tournaments.

Sure, but i'm talking about sanctioned ruleset that could allow TO to choose system officiakly for any sanctioned tourney like Store, Regionals etc. Because, you know, many people, especially in tourney scene, want to have solid ruleset.

41 minutes ago, SlackerHacker said:

I played A GOT CCG from the beginning, then the LCG and now 2nd ed. I've played the game for 15 years, there's been a lot of change but the game is still great. This may be the first change of this magnitude in L5R, so I understand that change from CCG to LCG got a lot of the same responses I see here. Unfortunately, almost none of the original players in the meta are still playing but new players have come on board.

In case of L5R CCG > LCG there's complete different situation than AGoT CCG > LCG. New LCG is going to be different game that, by accident, visually (not mechanically) looks like old one. AGoT never got such drastic change.

45 minutes ago, slowreflex said:

So, what I'm referring to is that if you have "broken" cards, the quicker you rotate them out, the better. Also, the quicker the rotation, the less total cards you have, and that decreases the probability of having un-intended combos.

I'm not familiar with old L5R though, so don't really understand your example.

The Diamond to Lotus transition created some major issues with how cards printed in Diamond that were legal in Lotus actually operated in the Lotus environment. It was very noticeable with dueling decks. Because players in Lotus were focusing from their decks rather than their hands (as had been the case up until then) a lot of late Diamond/early Lotus cards were errata'd completely shortly after the base set release, and lot of Diamond-Lotus bugged cards had new, unintended consequences because of how fast a dueling deck could run through the fate deck to find what they wanted.

Though in hindsight the issues I'm harping on are more likely the result of massive game play and rules changes that seemed to happen with every base set and not because of the rotation itself. To the best of my knowledge Magic hasn't had any comparable issues despite rotating on a regular schedule.

31 minutes ago, Nagori-A-Go-Go said:

Though in hindsight the issues I'm harping on are more likely the result of massive game play and rules changes that seemed to happen with every base set and not because of the rotation itself. To the best of my knowledge Magic hasn't had any comparable issues despite rotating on a regular schedule.

In Magic the great creature update was the biggest errata they did where they changed a bunch of creature types. Damage on the stack was through out of the window. The legendary rule was change multiple times over the course of the game. Recently they changed how converted mana cost on double-faced and split cards worked.

However most rule changes in Magic do not have so extreme consequences as in L5R CCG.

Main reason is that Magic actually has a functional rules team, which L5R never had. This results in the comprehensive magic rules are phenomenally well written. Also things are planned better. When design is interested in exploring new ground and development does not shut it down, there is a discussion if the rules need to change in any way shape or form. To make things easier for new player or that certain interactions work in the first place.

I always got the feeling that in Ivory they designed a bunch of cards and at a later point they tried to figure out how the rules book needed to be written so that things were played how they imagined it.

3 minutes ago, Yandia said:

I always got the feeling that in Ivory they designed a bunch of cards and at a later point they tried to figure out how the rules book needed to be written so that things were played how they imagined it.

As one of the three people that designed Ivory, let me go ahead and disabuse you of that notion.

4 minutes ago, Yandia said:

This results in the comprehensive magic rules are phenomenally well written

and 220 pages long, in order to cover every and any corner case scenario...

10 minutes ago, Tetsuro said:

As one of the three people that designed Ivory, let me go ahead and disabuse you of that notion.

Is three a low number for the design team?

14 minutes ago, Tetsuro said:

As one of the three people that designed Ivory, let me go ahead and disabuse you of that notion.

Oh interesting to know, could you tell me why you opted for this bizarre action resolution order.

I think it was:

*Announcing what card you want to play

*Paying cost

*Interrupt step (the opponent may do something)

*Assigning targets

*Resolution

While this seemed the way everybody wanted to play it things...(Probably because Magic works that way). And I think you changed it in 20F.

*Announcing what card you want to play

*Assigning targets

*Paying cost

*Interrupt step

*Resolution

11 minutes ago, C3gorach said:

and 220 pages long, in order to cover every and any corner case scenario...

Well they are comprehensive and contain all legacy stuff. Samurai rules did not explain how Double Chi or Yu X worked.

I never minded rotation in games. I almost never play in any tournaments so I normally don't worry about that stuff.

Even if I did, it wouldn't be much of a problem. Most games have power creep not to mention wanting to try the newest and latest stuff. This kind of stuff tends to keep me playing the newest expansions.

1 minute ago, Yandia said:

Well they are comprehensive and contain all legacy stuff. Samurai rules did not explain how Double Chi or Yu X worked.

Agree. Anyway, if you take a look at Comprehensive Rules of Twenty Festivals they just cover most of problems and answer mostly all questions. And they're long as well (pdf'ed from html givese me 98 pages long document).

https://rules.alderac.com/cr_for_20f/

15 minutes ago, Yandia said:

Yu X worked.

I still don't know how Yu worked.

22 minutes ago, Nagori-A-Go-Go said:

I still don't know how Yu worked.

Yu

Yu is a keyword that represents harming your opponent even if it means your death, and is followed by a numerical value.

If one or more cards with the Yu keyword are in a losing army during Battle Resolution, each may destroy an enemy Follower, or an enemy Personality without Followers, that has Force less than or equal to the losing card’s Yu value. Multiple cards may also combine their Yu values to destroy a single card, but one card may not split its Yu to destroy multiple cards. This occurs after determining the battle's outcome but before destroying the losing side. Destroying cards in this way does not alter the outcome of the battle, and it does not earn the loser any Honor. Using the Yu keyword is not an action, and is not targeted. The Attacker or Defender makes all decisions for all Yu values in his army, and can use the keywords in any order.

When giving a bonus to the Yu value of a card that does not have the keyword, give the card Yu 0 before receiving the bonus, which remains for the same duration as the bonus (this is a change from the earlier rule that gave Yu 0 permanently).

4 hours ago, Nagori-A-Go-Go said:

Not wholly related to the subject at hand, but one thing that amazes me looking at the history of the game is the L5R as originally designed was supposed to end with Time of the Void. As in, no future expansions. Did set rotation coincide with the choice to continue beyond that point, I wonder?

True rotation didn't really become a thing until Gold. The most common format during Jade (at least in my experience) was "Jade Extended", in which Strongholds, Personalities, Events, and Spells had to have the Jade bug but all other card types could be from any arc.

I really hope they do their Deluxe Box releases differently from AGoT 2nd where they focus in one House at a time...

It would be cool if the L5R Deluxe Boxes were based / focused on progressing the overall plot / story and contained equal amound of cards (relevant to the story) for every Clan along with a short printed novella!

4 hours ago, C3gorach said:

I really hope they do their Deluxe Box releases differently from AGoT 2nd where they focus in one House at a time...

It would be cool if the L5R Deluxe Boxes were based / focused on progressing the overall plot / story and contained equal amound of cards (relevant to the story) for every Clan along with a short printed novella!

Netrunner has seven primary factions (though it's 4 corp and 3 runners), same as L5R. The Deluxe editions were 2 factions at a time, so similar to AGoT. I'd be surprised if L5R was different, but I think that a roughly equal number of cards for all factions in each Deluxe would be better. Otherwise, you end up with certain factions having much greater card choice than other factions while they are being rolled out.

3 hours ago, C3gorach said:

I really hope they do their Deluxe Box releases differently from AGoT 2nd where they focus in one House at a time...

It would be cool if the L5R Deluxe Boxes were based / focused on progressing the overall plot / story and contained equal amound of cards (relevant to the story) for every Clan along with a short printed novella!

Yes, indeed, I'd really like to see Deluxe boxes addressing key events like the Scorpion Clan Coup. In AGoT, Deluxe boxes have 52 different cards. You could easily give each clan 5-6 cards and it would leave enough room for 10-15 Neutral cards about the key events.

Let's say this could be an example :

8 Scorpion cards

6 for each other Clan

That's 44 cards

Hantei XXXVIII

Another unaligned personnality

2 Neutral Attachments

2 Events

A Province

An "Agenda"-like card.

Could be nice.

On the other hand, we could have Deluxe boxes the same kind as the campaign they're releasing for Android : Netrunner : Terminal Directive

This would be even nicer.

Deluxes don't rotate out. So it'd be awkward to have them make the story progress... Also, the reason why A:NR had 2 factions per deluxe is that it's an asymmetric game, so it was 1 Corp and 1 Runner (like in SW, it was 1 Dark and 1 Light). Symmetric conflict games get single-faction deluxes in FFG's model.

5 minutes ago, Khudzlin said:

Deluxes don't rotate out. So it'd be awkward to have them make the story progress... Also, the reason why A:NR had 2 factions per deluxe is that it's an asymmetric game, so it was 1 Corp and 1 Runner (like in SW, it was 1 Dark and 1 Light). Symmetric conflict games get single-faction deluxes in FFG's model.

Awkward in what way?

8 minutes ago, C3gorach said:

Awkward in what way?

In that, under your proposition, they focus on a specific period (Scorpion Clan Coup, Day of Thunders, whatever), but they stay legal forever.

25 minutes ago, Khudzlin said:

In that, under your proposition, they focus on a specific period (Scorpion Clan Coup, Day of Thunders, whatever), but they stay legal forever.

Well, consider that the aftermath of those events lingered for a long time, so I see no issue in that in itself. Also we don't know how fast they plan to progress the storyline and of course they could build events that have even more lasting impact, like teh formation of the Feather and Claw alliance. And I mean, peeps they introduce in the core set will also stay now around forever, even when they might have actually died in the story, so what does it matter that we might get more of them in deluxes?

Never thought about it but it would be a good idea that the starter just has nothing but generic named samurai. A Matsu Berserker could work in any future set, as long as the family isn't destroyed. Where it would be a little weird to be using a named character years after they died in the storyline and using them with their great grand children.

But it looks like there will be some named characters in the starter since one of the partial previews is for Yogo Hiroue