7 hours ago, SabineKey said:

Plus, the whole reason AM exists is because of Manaroo's race. Why should the only clear case of that race in the game be denied that upgrade?

It could be argued that her pilot ability is representative of a mindlink.

But I think the better solution is just to restrict it to 2 ships as the action economy drops significantly and it makes blocking/double stress much more effective at preventing the entire list from getting a free focus every single turn.

Two ships would effectively remove the card from competitive play. Two ship Mindlink is really bad. Your ships are better off with PTL at that point. Plus it destroys all the "fun" Mindlink builds that makes bad/mediocre Scum ships playable. Like 4 Scyks.

Three ship Mindlink is right at the edge of playability and it only works when you have three ships that are tanky. Thats part of what made Parattanni so good. Fenn and Asajj are hard to hit, but behind them you also have Manaroo, who's sitting behind 9 health and 2 agility. It's very hard to take her out in one round, and if she survives she'll come in to block you next round and escape the round after. Jumpmasters are so good with Mindlink because they can't die easily, and we all know the effectiveness of a Mindlink list drops dramatically once a ship dies. If it weren't for the Jumpmaster, Fenn and Asajj would have a very hard time finding a suitable Mindlink buddy.

25 minutes ago, Makaze said:

It could be argued that her pilot ability is representative of a mindlink.

But I think the better solution is just to restrict it to 2 ships as the action economy drops significantly and it makes blocking/double stress much more effective at preventing the entire list from getting a free focus every single turn.

One idea would be that you can equip it on as many ships as you want, but it only passes a token 1 one ship at at ime instead of all of them. Not sure on the exact wording (to keep it from chaining through), but somehow make it so when you receive a focus or stress, you pick a single one of the other ships to get the same kind of token.

19 hours ago, Tbetts94 said:

Mindlink is fine now that Manaroo is nerfed. Manaroo was the problem before.

And now JumpMasters are the problem, as they were before.

I think Mindlink is fine as it is, as long as Jumpmasters, particularly Scouts get depowered/up-costed.

But it could still be toned down a touch. My preferred fix is to limit ships with it to only having one focus token at any one time.

BUt I do like the suggestion above that when a ship with it dies, all other ships with it get a stress token.

9 hours ago, SabineKey said:

But he isn't useless in the pack. He can be equipped to the C-Roc easily enough and provide extra illicit uses to other ships in your collection. He might not have a use in that expansion alone, but he is not unequipable.

Plus, the whole reason AM exists is because of Manaroo's race. Why should the only clear case of that race in the game be denied that upgrade?

Are you really thinking about the background in this game?

I know all these points of view. I just ignore them for a better solution in-game.

I'm backing off Mindlink being a problem at the moment, though it's still on my 'watch list'. I think Worlds is close enough that it's worth everyone taking a deep breath and waiting to see what comes out of that tournament.

I think a lot of people kneejerked when the triple jumps reared their head again, myself included, but they're clearly not what they were. The big problem for Mindlink is how restrictive it is on diversity, much like with PTL it's so much better on certain ships than other that they'll be all you see.

I want Mindlink to be ok, because I love the card and I love how it works (unlike PTL) but it worries me just how careful they have to be about every future Scum release when Attani is available. Feels like even if it's fine now it's just a ticking time bomb of potential balance issues.

I think it could actually be GOOD for diversity, personally.

It brings the possibility of basically any EPT-having Scum ship being good instead of just mediocre. Especially with the C-ROC coming down the line with Genesis Red and Inaldra, one of whom is a very solid Mindlink focus generator, and the other of whom is the cheapest EPT ship in the game leaving 85 points for a list with a 15 point focus battery...

1 minute ago, thespaceinvader said:

I think it could actually be GOOD for diversity, personally.

It brings the possibility of basically any EPT-having Scum ship being good instead of just mediocre. Especially with the C-ROC coming down the line with Genesis Red and Inaldra, one of whom is a very solid Mindlink focus generator, and the other of whom is the cheapest EPT ship in the game leaving 85 points for a list with a 15 point focus battery...

The reality is that only Scum ships with good green moves are really viable. Scyks currently aren't rocking it but if Inaldra/Pulsed Ray Shield are good enough to break into squads with Mindlink,then if the reality of that is that she becomes an 18pt Manaroo pissing around on the backline feeding focus with impunity then I'm not sure that's the sort of game experience we should be celebrating.

I am curious since I started around the release of the ghost:

Mindlink has been around for a while and was not prominent until parrattani. Did this happen bc of the introduction of new scum ships that could prosper with it? I am thinking yes but am wondering if another factor is involved like it being the hotness or if it was undiscovered?

13 minutes ago, Kijaucey said:

I am curious since I started around the release of the ghost:

Mindlink has been around for a while and was not prominent until parrattani. Did this happen bc of the introduction of new scum ships that could prosper with it? I am thinking yes but am wondering if another factor is involved like it being the hotness or if it was undiscovered?

As noted in another thread about exactly this question, it's two things:

1: The nerfing of the Jumpmaster's better options, specifically, the Deadeye nerf.

2: The release of the Shadow Caster and Fang. Before those ships came out Scum didn't have any ships with good enough dials to really abuse Mindlink, except the Jumpmaster and it had better options at that point.

The upside of Mindlink was clear but the ships to really put it on weren't there until wave 9.

One other possible reason is that Scum didn't actually have that many good EPT ships until Wave 8. Guri and Xizor are wildly overcosted, the Kihraxz is just bad, N'Dru and Kaato are nice but are still Zs, the named HWKs are nice but still HWKs, and boba, bossk, IGGies and Kath are too expensive to really fit more than 2 decent ships in a list, and 2 ships is usually too few for Mindlink IMO. Kavil with Unhinged and TLT is decent but still a touch too squishy, and TPVs hadn't yet received their buff.

Mindlink came out at a point in time when Scum were really on the back foot.

44 minutes ago, Kijaucey said:

Mindlink has been around for a while and was not prominent until parrattani. Did this happen bc of the introduction of new scum ships that could prosper with it? I am thinking yes but am wondering if another factor is involved like it being the hotness or if it was undiscovered?

If you look at prominent mindlink lists now, almost all of them have at least one wave 9 ship.

The notable exception to this is 3 scouts, but back then they could use deadeye which was the go to EPT.

On 2017-04-23 at 1:45 AM, Hrathen said:

My instincts have always been to trust FFG. I have just played so many games that were worse that X-wing in terms of balance and broken things. Even when I played Dangaroo for the first time in a tournament, and left with my mouth tasting like bile, I had to congratulate my opponent on making a list that I just couldn't touch.

That being said, I have been getting my new post-mega-nerf tournament list ready and watching the rest of the meta and I think Atanni Mindlink needs a little help. And not because I have been flying against it but because I have been using it and it is crazy good. Add the this a quick look at the lists that are winning tournaments and Mindlink keeps coming up a lot.

Here is the problem as I see it. When you first look at mind link you can tell it is a really powerful card but with a pretty strap price. You would think that mind link lists would be vulnerable to stress. But they are not. The fact that Attanni Mindlink doesn't give you a stress if you are already stressed and well, can give you a focus if you are stressed means that it deals with stress pretty well. The only thing you can't do is multiple red maneuvers in the same turn. If I am going to do one red manuvure I can give my other ships green moves and then have them go after the stressor and they are clear, they still get to take the focus if they want and give it out to the stressed ship. If I really want to do white maneuvers on the turn another ship is going to get stressed, you just go first. (Sure these shenanigans only work if you have multiple ships with the same PS, but that's not that uncommon on Mindlink lists)

In Short, stress was supposed to be (at least that is how it appeared to me at first) a liability for Atanni Mindlink, but it turns out the Mindlink list are some of the most stress resistant lists in the game.

So what would my fix be? Simple, either let ships that are already stressed get more stress from Mindlink or not let stressed ships get the focus. It would still be very good. Still something some people would take, but it wouldn't be an auto-include for all scum players.

What is your build? The reason i'm asking is because Scums have some really good ships that might make it look like mindlink is the problem. Try flying a Jumpmaster build or a Shadowcaster build without this upgrade and youll see they still feel OP.

I started playing scums around 3 weeks ago because of the Palp/Defenders nerf. Boy does it feel like EZ mode. Even compared to the old Palp/X7. The Shadowcaster is insanely easy to fly. Even without the mobile arc it would still be a competitive ship. With Asajj/latts/title you get a durable ship with an incredible dial, good firepower and easy to apply control effects for only 42 points!! No other ship/pilot in the game come close to that outside of the Jumpmaster and Miranda. Fully loaded with push the limit, engine upgrade and a 1pts illicit, shes at only 50 points. The ship base cost should have been higher by at least 5 points if not more.

The Jumpmaster is in the same boat (or uboat) I feel that the ship with the title is priced correctly but is way undercosted without it. You just get too much for what little you pay and this allows for partners that are stronger than they should be.

Mindlink on other ships than the Jumpmaster/Shadowcaster is perfectly fine. Nerfing that upgrade wont solve the problem at all. Just like the change to Manaroo and Zuckuss had really minor effets on the meta.

While waiting for a seriously needed fix, if you cant beat them, join them :-)

Here's my problems with Mindlink as it's typically seen in a 3 ship list

its 1 point, and it's not stopped by stress, you can still take focus actions, Scum have multiple ways to generate focus while stressed, Scum have several ships that receive extra bonuses when using focus, it has no range restrictions, and its crazy easy to have 3 stressed ships generate a focus or 2, several of the Scum ships can fire out of arc or have good green options, so they can easily clear stress if it does hurt them... all for 1 point

PTL looks just silly at the same cost even when stacked up against Mindlink, let alone at x3 the points. Mindlink is basically a non ship specific x7 title. I think the change of the x7 benefits to a free action was a wise and proper correction... very surprised that Mindlink didn't receive the same treatment for the exact same reasons.

3 minutes ago, Thormind said:

What is your build? The reason i'm asking is because Scums have some really good ships that might make it look like mindlink is the problem. Try flying a Jumpmaster build or a Shadowcaster build without this upgrade and youll see they still feel OP.

I started playing scums around 3 weeks ago because of the Palp/Defenders nerf. Boy does it feel like EZ mode. Even compared to the old Palp/X7. The Shadowcaster is insanely easy to fly. Even without the mobile arc it would still be a competitive ship. With Asajj/latts/title you get a durable ship with an incredible dial, good firepower and easy to apply control effects for only 42 points!! No other ship/pilot in the game come close to that outside of the Jumpmaster and Miranda. Fully loaded with push the limit, engine upgrade and a 1pts illicit, shes at only 50 points. The ship base cost should have been higher by at least 5 points if not more.

The Jumpmaster is in the same boat (or uboat) I feel that the ship with the title is priced correctly but is way undercosted without it. You just get too much for what little you pay and this allows for partners that are stronger than they should be.

Mindlink on other ships than the Jumpmaster/Shadowcaster is perfectly fine. Nerfing that upgrade wont solve the problem at all. Just like the change to Manaroo and Zuckuss had really minor effets on the meta.

While waiting for a seriously needed fix, if you cant beat them, join them :-)

This and this.

It certainly bears out around here. If you need to win, go after the (pretty much) sure thing.

The current imbalance in ships in Scum is quite amazing when you really look at the details and tournament results over the past 12 months (taking a moment to exclude the ships that relied on now nerfed crew, titles or modifications). I cannot understand how the designers cannot see this wave of power sweeping all other ships into the sea. Thankfully, Rebels have some synergy to combat the Scum in Regen, Sabine, Kaynan, Biggs, Stressers and Slam, so Rebel pilots can hold on and get some wins, maybe squeak out a few final tables. Sadly, Imperials pilots might as well give in and join the Rebels to strike back at the absolute, mighty power in the Galaxy, Scum.....or, have more fun and join the EZ win mode: Scum!!

Comparisons to PTL also upset me because I think PTL is a point or two undercosted. It's the best offensive buff, the best defensive buff, the best repositioning buff, and you get to choose which you want on each turn. So I would cost PTL at least at 4pts, and Mindlink can offer a lot more for a lot less, though you lose a lot of the flexibility of PTL.

Mindlink is definitely easy mode. You can **** up half your squad and still come out smelling of roses.

1 minute ago, clanofwolves said:

This and this.

It certainly bears out around here. If you need to win, go after the (pretty much) sure thing.

The current imbalance in ships in Scum is quite amazing when you really look at the details and tournament results over the past 12 months (taking a moment to exclude the ships that relied on now nerfed crew, titles or modifications). I cannot understand how the designers cannot see this wave of power sweeping all other ships into the sea. Thankfully, Rebels have some synergy to combat the Scum in Regen, Sabine, Kaynan, Biggs, Stressers and Slam, so Rebel pilots can hold on and get some wins, maybe squeak out a few final tables. Sadly, Imperials pilots might as well give in and join the Rebels to strike back at the absolute, mighty power in the Galaxy, Scum.....or, have more fun and join the EZ win mode: Scum!!

Hehe, i used to think the Shadowcaster was balanced before flying it. I was sooo wrong. The speed of that ship... Even if your oponent is aware of how fast you can be, there is little he can do to counter it outside of fortressing. Getting at range 2 is not a problem at all. Stressing and tractor beaming a small ship is so much fun :-)

5 hours ago, Keffisch said:

And now JumpMasters are the problem, as they were before.

That entire expansion is a mess. I'm sure FFG wished they never released it.

1 minute ago, Thormind said:

Hehe, i used to think the Shadowcaster was balanced before flying it. I was sooo wrong. The speed of that ship... Even if your oponent is aware of how fast you can be, there is little he can do to counter it outside of fortressing. Getting at range 2 is not a problem at all. Stressing and tractor beaming a small ship is so much fun :-)

Stop Thormind, please stop.

I don't own a Shadowcaster yet and I don't need you so amazingly tempting me to buy one. Goodness man, it's so hard to resist the powerful ships as it is. I already have to get two Protectorates and another Jumpmaster to insure my new power-list can Mindlink it up. I flew a friend's Two Protectorates with Manaroo and all Mindlinked and it was like soooooooooooooo easy to beat the **** out of my friend's tripple T-70 list; I lit Poe up after setting a simple, tiny trap and I believed I could smell smoke off his tiny miniature as he lost his token and got diced out of existance. I felt kind of bad about how seemingly easy it was to throw tokens around. Soontir use to impress me with token stacks when I flew him or watched a skilled pilot wield him. Well? Not impressed anymore. Move the **** over Soontir.

But a Shadowcaster? ....looks kinda Star Trek to me in lieu of Star Wars.

13 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

Stop Thormind, please stop.

I don't own a Shadowcaster yet and I don't need you so amazingly tempting me to buy one. Goodness man, it's so hard to resist the powerful ships as it is. I already have to get two Protectorates and another Jumpmaster to insure my new power-list can Mindlink it up. I flew a friend's Two Protectorates with Manaroo and all Mindlinked and it was like soooooooooooooo easy to beat the **** out of my friend's tripple T-70 list; I lit Poe up after setting a simple, tiny trap and I believed I could smell smoke off his tiny miniature as he lost his token and got diced out of existance. I felt kind of bad about how seemingly easy it was to throw tokens around. Soontir use to impress me with token stacks when I flew him or watched a skilled pilot wield him. Well? Not impressed anymore. Move the **** over Soontir.

But a caster? ....looks kinda Star Trek to me in lieu of Star Wars.

Shadowcaster + 2 TLT Ywings, believe me you wont care not having mindlink in your build :-) Out of fairness for other local players, i switched one Ywing (and removed some upgrades on Asajj) for Palob. Still felt OP :-)

It's a lot more fun to fly than a Jumpmaster. You can cover more than half the board in a single turn (speed 5 + boost). The trick when flying a caster is to position you obstacles and your ship in a way that allows you to do a quick rush attack in the first few turn. With 2 greens and a free evade from latts, the ship is a surprisingly strong jouster. My last game was vs Dengar and Asajj exchanged fire with him for 2 rounds (4 attacks for Dengar and 2 for Asajj). Both were left with 3 hull after the exchange :-)

39 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

you lose a lot of the flexibility of PTL.

Yet gain flexibility in some ways too... no automatic stress, only need to clear stress on 1 ship, can combo with focus action, focus itself is both a good defensive and offensive action... though yeah, you can't choose from anything other than focus, I get your point

6 minutes ago, Thormind said:

Shadowcaster + 2 TLT Ywings, believe me you wont care not having mindlink in your build :-) Out of fairness for other local players, i switched one Ywing (and removed some upgrades on Asajj) for Palob. Still felt OP :-)

It's a lot more fun to fly than a Jumpmaster. You can cover more than half the board in a single turn (speed 5 + boost). The trick when flying a caster is to position you obstacles and your ship in a way that allows you to do a quick rush attack in the first few turn. With 2 greens and a free evade from latts, the ship is a surprisingly strong jouster. My last game was vs Dengar and Asajj exchanged fire with him for 2 rounds (4 attacks for Dengar and 2 for Asajj). Both were left with 3 hull after the exchange :-)

You got very lucky to do 6 hull to Dengar in two attacks. Assaj very rarely has Target Locks and would often not want to spend her focus on the attack, or have already spent it by the time she attacks. Doing 6 damage in two hits is well over the odds even if he *didn't* have evade dice.

Assaj IS a strong jouster, for sure, but she's much stronger at taking damage than she is at dishing it out.