9 minutes ago, Turbo Toker said:

If they got free Virago, they wouldn't be so ridiculously overpriced. They'd be perfectly balanced. And then if you pay extra, you can get Mindlink and some snazzy pilot abilities.

With virago for free included on all vipers they'd probably be okay. I think they'd still be a bit overpriced. Going by the virago title, it's worth about 1 point to give a ship a system and illicit slot. And the starviper is overpriced by a lot more than one point. If you also have em the white sloops, then maybe 24 points would be all right

Sensor Jammer is so much better on Guri than FCS and Cloaking Device. Combined with AT, makes people either spend foci that they want to save for defense, or risk not doing any damage. With Fenn already the hammer in your list, having a tank could work a bit better. But it is also down to play style too. I have a similar list, but use Palob instead of Terry, I might change it around a bit, see how it goes.

24 minutes ago, Archangelspiv said:

Sensor Jammer is so much better on Guri than FCS and Cloaking Device. Combined with AT, makes people either spend foci that they want to save for defense, or risk not doing any damage. With Fenn already the hammer in your list, having a tank could work a bit better. But it is also down to play style too. I have a similar list, but use Palob instead of Terry, I might change it around a bit, see how it goes.

I'm considering that too, but with Expertise becoming such a staple I just don't feel safe wasting the points and opportunity cost on it.

Sensor jammer WAS better...nowadays there's so many focus tokens on the mat that the shear weight of them bends the table into a concave bowl.

4 hours ago, VanderLegion said:

With virago for free included on all vipers they'd probably be okay. I think they'd still be a bit overpriced. Going by the virago title, it's worth about 1 point to give a ship a system and illicit slot. And the starviper is overpriced by a lot more than one point. If you also have em the white sloops, then maybe 24 points would be all right

White Sloops are a slippery slope...

Just now, Velvetelvis said:

Sensor jammer WAS better...nowadays there's so many focus tokens on the mat that the shear weight of them bends the table into a concave bowl.

Interdictor Star Destroyer: assign ONE MILLION focus tokens.

The list is fine, but sadly the same with Kad Souls instead of Guri will works better.

Guri hate stress. And with PS5 she still avoidable pretty well. Kad will bring focus even when Tallon Roll/Koyogram, then the list doesn't struggle to removing it thanks to the same dial.

Plus, you get a great initiative bid that is GOLD for both Rau and Teroch.

And I'm talking by experience...sadly. I love the Viper, but I can't say that Kad is worse in this case. Tried both the lists multiple times.

Guri is playable. It's not quite the same thing as "competitive" though. Her main shot at being competitive is the action/modification stacking potential. Within the same turn she can:

1. Get a target lock for free (FCS).

2. Get a focus token for free (ability, effect possibly multiplied by mindlink).

3. Turn blank to evade (AT, possibly several times per turn).

4. Perform a normal action.

Her main limitations are:

1. Lack of evade action - this one really hurts. I know from experience that even with double or triple focus she can get focused down rather quickly in close range if rolls don't go her way. It also means you sometimes reach a point of diminishing returns on your action economy. With FCS and focus covered in points 1. and 2., point 4. is often reserved solely for repositioning. Which would even be good if it wasn't for...

2. Low PS - unfortunately having great action economy and freedom to reposition doesn't work so well if you move before your enemy does. Don't get me wrong, a skillful player can still get a lot of out of her by setting up positioning the turn before and predicting the opponent's moves. Still, if both you and the enemy can reposition, you're relatively close and the enemy moves last, he can almost always dodge your arc by barreling or boosting away and there's very little you can do about it unless you're way better than he is. As a result, Guri struggles to make an impact in the close range dogfights she should theoretically thrive in.

3. High cost - basically whenever I try to put her in my list these days I look at the cost, consider what I might get for the points and she goes back to collecting dust. She just doesn't compare favorably to pretty much anything. Fangs occupy roughly the same niche, are actually better in close range shootouts and cheaper. There are several other scum options that are simply better for the same cost, which means Guri is NOT competitive, even if you can build a moderately successful list containing her.

Turning S-loops white would indeed be enough to make her great. For one thing, it would make her perfect for mindlink lists. Normally non-PWT mindlink lists start getting into trouble when inevitably some of the ships need to turn around to face the enemy. This is especially true if multiple ships need to do so and/or if they don't have green hard turns so they can retain good maneuverability even when shedding stress (you can sometimes keep stress and rely solely on mindlink for focus but you WILL want to get rid of it sooner or later). If Guri could turn around without stressing herself (and the others), her lack of green hard turns would no longer be an issue.

Secondly, it would go a long way towards solving her low PS problem. Ryad works as well as she does because even though she moves first, she can usually get in positions where she's actually behind the opponent and even relatively nimble high-PS aces struggle to reposition out of her arc. With white S-loops Guri could adopt a similar tactic.

Finally, I'm not sure if some people fully appreciate how incredible Starviper dial would become with white S-loops. Take the defenders - if their k-turn was red, their dial would be one of the worst in the game. Being able to turn around without stress pretty much defines that fighter and perhaps their greatest weakness is predictability, because they often have no other good options (and if K-turn is blocked, they may have no good options at all).

SV's dial, while not the best right now, is MUCH better than defender's dial sans k-turn. It also has 2 s-loop maneuvers, so even when you know SV is likely to turn around you may not be sure which one he will use and blocking both options is much harder than blocking a defender's k-turn. On top of that, there's no inherent benefit for SV in moving at speed 3+, as is the case with x7 defenders. Also don't forget the fact that SV has access to the boost action, which defender doesn't have. As a result, a white s-loop SV would become quite a monster - a fighter that would have many of the same advantages the defender enjoys but without the latter's flaws. And for cheaper... And with autothrusters... And with possibility of mindlink...

Come to think of it, it may be tricky to balance all of that, because simply adding white s-loops might make mindlinked SVs definitely overpowered. One solution is to incorporate the effect into Virago title, making it unique and thus impossible to spam (but creating a rather monstrous ace in the process). Another is to do the opposite - create another, non-unique title, forcing the players to choose between the goodies offered by Virago and the white s-loops. Unfortunately the probable result would be that Virago would become obsolete and it might still be OP. Yet another option would be to create a SV-only modification. That would force the players to choose between autothrusters and the white s-loops. Unless mass TLTs come back to the meta with a vengeance autothrusters would lose that competition, rendering SV a very dangerous and nimble dogfighter, but perhaps not horribly overpowered. Either way, it's not a step that should be taken without extensive testing, otherwise we might end up in a meta where ships are either turrets or turn around without stress, all the other ships becoming effectively obsolete. Not something I'm looking forward to.

Guri is definitely short of being competitive. I mean, unless you put her with Operations Specialist somehow then she'd be ridiculous. Imagine Guri with Operations Specialist and a way of looking at your opponent's dials like Intelligence Agent. Bonkers!

I've always thought the Starviper fix will come in the form of NEW PILOTS more than some -2 discount. But you're right, Guri has chops. Pity she struggles with multiple BomberMiranda's floating around. Try going up against 3 Miranda lists in a row and then tell me the Starviper is "competitive."

I agree that Guri is the challenge if StarVipers recieves a buff. There is a real chance, that she will become "to much" if there is to big of a buff.

However, the other StarVipers could use some love in some form.

FUI my current Guri list is this:

Guri, Virago, Advanced Sensors, Autothrusters, Attanni mindlink (BMST or 1 point initiative bid)

Tansari point veteran, Heavy Scyk, Heavy laser cannon, Attanni mindlink

Contracted Scout, Boba Fett, Proton Torpedos, Extra munitions, Guidance Chips, R4 Agro Mech, Attanni Mindlink

Advanced sensors makes sooooo maneuverable. It is great for infighting with BarrelRoll/Boost and 1Turn :-)

Unless a putative buff adds 6+ points of utility to Guri, she wouldn't end up overpowered, because she's PS5.

I think Guri moves into the realms of being a great ship if you spend far too many points on her. I love flying her, but I think there is a lot of design space to buff the Starviper chassis without breaking her.

On 2017-04-23 at 1:06 AM, Turbo Toker said:

Vessery is only PS 6. Ryad is only PS 5. They're the best Defenders, just like Guri is the best Starviper. And before the Palp and x7 nerfs, they were broken.

The stats pre nerf were saying otherwise... list juggler...

7 minutes ago, Thormind said:

The stats pre nerf were saying otherwise... list juggler...

Well, they were juuuust behind the even more broken mechanic of Manaroo Mindlink.

I always thought the most logical adjustment to the Starviper would be a generic title that offers the choice of system or illicit slot for a free or negative cost. Perhaps it could include a cost deduction for that upgrade akin to the Tie Advanced title.

The Starviper's dial seem to be designed around having a free token of some kind, as it is an interceptor with no green turns. Using the sloops puts you in a very limited position these days, as you need to go speed 1 banks or go straight. The boost and barrel roll mitigate this but then you have used your action, and an unmodified attack is worth much less these days.

But that only truly affects the generics. Guri and Xizor can take both the title and an EPT. Filling out both the title slots gets too expensive though, and Xizor is only really worth his PS. So how do you boost the generics while not boosting the elites too much? I still think the title above is the solution. It allows the generics access to the kind of dice mods their dials demand and doesn't give the elites access to something they don't already have. The details of cost are obviously important and too far above my head design-wise, but you could even have PS cutoff for any point cost reduction built into the title.

I like Guri a lot, the ship looks cool, her ability is great especially paired with mindlink. I just wish the title didn't cost points to add that system slot, since I don't care for most illicits.

On 4/22/2017 at 11:10 PM, Turbo Toker said:

Today I flew:

Old Teroch and Fenn Rau, each with Mindlink, CDP, and Autothrusters

And Guri with Mindlink, Virago, FCS, Cloaking Device, and Autothrusters.

I have a variation on this, with Talonbane with ML and VT and Fenn with ML, CDP, AT

Guri doesn't cloak, with ML, FCS, Virago and AT

Guri is competitive, but she's over costed and Fenn does everything so much better. I flew her at my CAC and she did pretty good, but more often than not, always took damage when being shot at.

What i I want for a starviper fix is a -2 torpedo upgrade that says something along the lines of when you are assigned a focus token you may instead assign yourself an evade token.

This means you can't Push the limit to have focus and evade, though things like Attani mindlink, and her ability will allow you to have both a focus and evade token. It means Guri won't want Adv proton torps anymore bringing the cost down by a total of 8 (6 for torps and then the minus 2). It's also something that would make the starviper unique compared to the protectorate in that they can't get an evade token. And it would help the starviper survive just a little bit better.

I am not in the least worried about Guri becoming OP. Especially give the likely buff will come in the form of new pilot cards and titles. One doesn't help her at all and the other makes her forfeit the systems and illicit slots. I would be mildly concerned about a Starviper only mod but only a little.

On 4/23/2017 at 4:26 AM, thespaceinvader said:

If Guri was competitive... she'd be seen at top tables.

This argument doesn't always work. It's like saying Dengaroo isn't valid before it became popular because it hadn't been discovered yet. It took a while for that list to come out, even though all the pieces were there. Sometimes it takes someone thinking outside the box before they find the next "thing".

2 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

This argument doesn't always work. It's like saying Dengaroo isn't valid before it became popular because it hadn't been discovered yet. It took a while for that list to come out, even though all the pieces were there. Sometimes it takes someone thinking outside the box before they find the next "thing".

This is true, but it also helps when a ship isn't 4 points overcosted to start. Generally the super combos like that come around because the pieces in it are super efficient and/or slightly (or more than slightly) overpowered.

I know I played Xizor back around Wave 6 and it ate up Fat turrets and Bro Bots, but didn't get much street cred on the forums. TLT's killed it, though.

2 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

This argument doesn't always work. It's like saying Dengaroo isn't valid before it became popular because it hadn't been discovered yet. It took a while for that list to come out, even though all the pieces were there. Sometimes it takes someone thinking outside the box before they find the next "thing".

Mindlink has been out for how long now? And people still think that not having green turns for one of your 3 ships in this list is a problem?

Because Mindlink ships give a rats ass about being stressed. Aw shucks, I slooped with with my Starviper and I ONLY got a focus token and a target lock. The next turn I couldn't clear my stress because I didn't have a green hard turn, I ONLY got 2 focus tokens and a Target Lock. Man, how will I EVER use Guri's pilot ability, Mindlink, and Fire Control System when I'm stressed?! I can't be assigned tokens when I'm stressed!

8 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

I know I played Xizor back around Wave 6 and it ate up Fat turrets and Bro Bots, but didn't get much street cred on the forums. TLT's killed it, though.

Yah I played xizor a lot back in the day as well, and did fairly well with him, but the starviper's been outshown by newer (far more cost efficient) scum releases.

6 minutes ago, Turbo Toker said:

Mindlink has been out for how long now? And people still think that not having green turns for one of your 3 ships in this list is a problem?

Because Mindlink ships give a rats ass about being stressed. Aw shucks, I slooped with with my Starviper and I ONLY got a focus token and a target lock. The next turn I couldn't clear my stress because I didn't have a green hard turn, I ONLY got 2 focus tokens and a Target Lock. Man, how will I EVER use Guri's pilot ability, Mindlink, and Fire Control System when I'm stressed?! I can't be assigned tokens when I'm stressed!

You can have ships without green turns. But that doesn't change that the green turns on the protectorate do make it better than NOT having green turns on a different ship. Every ship that has a hard time clearing stress is one less ship that you can rely on to be the one generating tokens for your list. And if you're stressed and NOT doing greens, you lose out on your repositioning actions. And if you're stressed without green turns, it makes it a lot harder for you to turn around.

The lack of green turns is NOT my biggest complaint ont he starviper. I'm actually mostly fine with that. It's the 4 points the ship is overcosted compared to the almost identical protectorate fighter. Give me a 4 ponit discount and I'll happily fly the starviper without green turns.

Edit: Also, note that the top 3 ships that use mindlink are...the protectorate, the jumpmaster and the shadowcaster. What do all 3 of these ships have in common? Green hard turns.

Off topic but is Black Sun Vigo vs Concord Dawn Veteran the most ridiculous cost comparison in the game currently? Should have just left the generics out of the box completely and included four copies of autothrusters.