29 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

This argument doesn't always work. It's like saying Dengaroo isn't valid before it became popular because it hadn't been discovered yet. It took a while for that list to come out, even though all the pieces were there. Sometimes it takes someone thinking outside the box before they find the next "thing".

Yes and no.

If it's something new, sure, it can take some time to be discovered. If there's been a major change to one of the components, that can take some time to shake out.

But nothing's changed for Guri for at least a year, except Mindlink, and she's great with mindlink - but people don't use her with it, because she's too expensive by comparison with similar options.

Just now, thespaceinvader said:

Yes and no.

If it's something new, sure, it can take some time to be discovered. If there's been a major change to one of the components, that can take some time to shake out.

But nothing's changed for Guri for at least a year, except Mindlink, and she's great with mindlink - but people don't use her with it, because she's too expensive by comparison with similar options.

I still say that it's not always a good argument to say that it's not seen on the top tables and that's a reason that it can't be good. Just sayin'.

4 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

I still say that it's not always a good argument to say that it's not seen on the top tables and that's a reason that it can't be good. Just sayin'.

Just because something isn't seen on top tables is not, by itself, an argument that it can't be good, you're right. But something being demonstrably way overpriced IS a way bigger indicator that it's not going to see top competitive play. Similar to why we don't see non-biggs x-wings, or non-corran e-wings, etc. When's the last time a TIE Punisher made it to anything notable competitively? Part of the starvipers problem is it doesn't have a pilot like biggs or corran that has a good enough ability to be worth using despite the platform. Guri is probably the closest, especially in a mindlinked list, but you can get cheaper options that do more than just provide focus tokens.

In casual games I still love flying the starviper, it's probably my favorite ship int he game, but I haven't taken it to a tournament in well over a year at this point. **Except the CCL season 1 tournament when I got to fly Talonbane Cobra in the starviper. His ability is good enough that he was still quite good, despite being way overcosted**

16 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

You can have ships without green turns. But that doesn't change that the green turns on the protectorate do make it better than NOT having green turns on a different ship. Every ship that has a hard time clearing stress is one less ship that you can rely on to be the one generating tokens for your list. And if you're stressed and NOT doing greens, you lose out on your repositioning actions. And if you're stressed without green turns, it makes it a lot harder for you to turn around.

The lack of green turns is NOT my biggest complaint ont he starviper. I'm actually mostly fine with that. It's the 4 points the ship is overcosted compared to the almost identical protectorate fighter. Give me a 4 ponit discount and I'll happily fly the starviper without green turns.

Edit: Also, note that the top 3 ships that use mindlink are...the protectorate, the jumpmaster and the shadowcaster. What do all 3 of these ships have in common? Green hard turns.

Yeah, and you have 2 of those ships in your list to cover for the Starviper's lack of greens.

Like I've said before, if the Virago title was just free for all Starvipers, even the PS one guys with Autothrusters and FCS would be a solid option. Guri's only a point overcosted since she has to pay for Virago.

This is the problem. If you just give the Starviper as a whole a 4 point discount, you'll end up making Guri too strong.

Xizor's ability is kind of lackluster in general and doesn't work against TLT, so he's overcosted for different reasons, like Rexlar Brath.

Talonbane in a 3 agility ship that can take autothrusters?!? I'd fly that 8 days a week.

8 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

Just because something isn't seen on top tables is not, by itself, an argument that it can't be good, you're right. But something being demonstrably way overpriced IS a way bigger indicator that it's not going to see top competitive play. Similar to why we don't see non-biggs x-wings, or non-corran e-wings, etc. When's the last time a TIE Punisher made it to anything notable competitively? Part of the starvipers problem is it doesn't have a pilot like biggs or corran that has a good enough ability to be worth using despite the platform. Guri is probably the closest, especially in a mindlinked list, but you can get cheaper options that do more than just provide focus tokens.

In casual games I still love flying the starviper, it's probably my favorite ship int he game, but I haven't taken it to a tournament in well over a year at this point. **Except the CCL season 1 tournament when I got to fly Talonbane Cobra in the starviper. His ability is good enough that he was still quite good, despite being way overcosted**

Agreed. I just hate to see the "well, it's not on the top tables, so it must be bad" argument.

On 4/23/2017 at 0:24 AM, KommanderKeldoth said:

I think Guri is inherently limited by her PS 5. Even with VI she only gets up to 7.

Compare her to Countess Ryad. Both have amazing pilot abilities that would probably be broken on PS 8 or 9 pilots.

I think when they buff the star viper she will definitely become a top scum ace, but I don't think she will be broken.

Exactly this. Is she good? Absolutely but her chance of breaking a fix is slightly diminished with her low PS. But anyways they do need to be careful with a fix because the starviper has a large amount of potential with the stats and action bar. And if they are not careful they can imo create a monster possibly even worse than the Defender (only due to Autothrusters and boost). Can Guri become a beast? Absolutely but i think the chassis itself can become far more dangerous. Possibly....it is just speculation after all.

4 minutes ago, gamblertuba said:

Talonbane in a 3 agility ship that can take autothrusters?!? I'd fly that 8 days a week.

And native repositioning. Can't forget that little detail

Man if only he was i the viper.

3 minutes ago, Turbo Toker said:

Yeah, and you have 2 of those ships in your list to cover for the Starviper's lack of greens.

Like I've said before, if the Virago title was just free for all Starvipers, even the PS one guys with Autothrusters and FCS would be a solid option. Guri's only a point overcosted since she has to pay for Virago.

This is the problem. If you just give the Starviper as a whole a 4 point discount, you'll end up making Guri too strong.

Xizor's ability is kind of lackluster in general and doesn't work against TLT, so he's overcosted for different reasons, like Rexlar Brath.

Guri is way more htan a point overcosted though. She costs 2 points more than Fenn Rau! She's 4 PS lower, and while her ability is good, I'd argue his is better. A fully equipped mindlink Fenn is only 32 points. Put mindlink and autothrusters on guri and she's up to 33 already, before even equipping the title and a system and/or illicit upgrade. A PS5 should NOT cost 1 point more than a PS9 when the ONLY thing you've gained for that point is 1 shield. Especially when that PS9 also has the concord dawn protector title...

Just now, 4fox100 said:

And native repositioning. Can't forget that little detail

Man if only he was i the viper.

He was quite fun to fly :). That's my dream for when we get an aces pack to fix the starviper, that TBC will be one of th epilots they include...

1 minute ago, VanderLegion said:

Guri is way more htan a point overcosted though. She costs 2 points more than Fenn Rau! She's 4 PS lower, and while her ability is good, I'd argue his is better. A fully equipped mindlink Fenn is only 32 points. Put mindlink and autothrusters on guri and she's up to 33 already, before even equipping the title and a system and/or illicit upgrade. A PS5 should NOT cost 1 point more than a PS9 when the ONLY thing you've gained for that point is 1 shield. Especially when that PS9 also has the concord dawn protector title...

He was quite fun to fly :). That's my dream for when we get an aces pack to fix the starviper, that TBC will be one of th epilots they include...

Yeah, and Ryad with PtL, x7, and MK II was a point more than Soontir, or 5 points more than the Inquisitor.

Fenn when used with Mindlink is just a super jouster. He could be PS 5 and Parattanni would have still been just as effective.

1 minute ago, Turbo Toker said:

Yeah, and Ryad with PtL, x7, and MK II was a point more than Soontir, or 5 points more than the Inquisitor.

Fenn when used with Mindlink is just a super jouster. He could be PS 5 and Parattanni would have still been just as effective.

Ryad is on an entirely different platform than the inquisitor and Soontir. Fenn and guri are on ships that are almost identical. And fenn would actually be less effective at PS5 becuase it'd be way harder to use his repositioning effectively and ensure range control.

Just now, VanderLegion said:

Ryad is on an entirely different platform than the inquisitor and Soontir. Fenn and guri are on ships that are almost *identical*

Fenn can't have an illicit or fire control system.

Fenn doesn't have the full array of one speeds. The Starviper can one straight and one bank and one hard turn, and they're all white or green. What other small base can do that besides for a Striker without Adaptive Ailerons?

Fenn is better, but the Starviper is only overcosted by a point because of Virago. It's Fenn that's undercosted. The Starviper, with free Virago, is just fine.

12 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

Guri is way more htan a point overcosted though. She costs 2 points more than Fenn Rau! She's 4 PS lower, and while her ability is good, I'd argue his is better. A fully equipped mindlink Fenn is only 32 points. Put mindlink and autothrusters on guri and she's up to 33 already, before even equipping the title and a system and/or illicit upgrade. A PS5 should NOT cost 1 point more than a PS9 when the ONLY thing you've gained for that point is 1 shield. Especially when that PS9 also has the concord dawn protector title...

The protectorate also has those hard green turns which makes stress shedding easier.

Just now, Turbo Toker said:

Fenn can't have an illicit or fire control system.

Guri without the title can't have an illicit or FCS either. The chassis should not be costed bsaed on the availability of a unique title (espeically one the generics can't use). The only time a title should be considered for the cost of the ship's chassis is if it's an auto-include like the ARC-170 and TIE/SF titles. If you think a title makes a ship that much better, then cost the chassis right and price the title accordingly. FFG apparently thinks the ability to take an illicit and a system slot is worth 1 point. If the ship being chepaer makes that too good, then price the title more (I happen to think it doesnt make it hta tmuch better, since you ARE paying apoint for the title plus you have to pay for the upgrades).

And what i fyou want to fly both xizor and guri in a list? They can't BOTH have the title, so even if the title DID make them worth the cost, the other one would still be hideously overcosted.

Just now, Turbo Toker said:

Fenn doesn't have the full array of one speeds. The Starviper can one straight and one bank and one hard turn, and they're all white or green. What other small base can do that besides for a Striker without Adaptive Ailerons?

Guri doesn't have the full array of faster speeds. The protectorate can 5s and 3 turn, and they're all white or green. And it can k-turn.

Just now, Turbo Toker said:

Fenn is better, but the Starviper is only overcosted by a point because of Virago. It's Fenn that's undercosted. The Starviper, with free Virago, is just fine.

The virago has nothing to do with the starviper being overcosted. It's way overcosted WITHOUT the virago. That just makes it an extra point more for a pilot you put it on. And including Virago for free on all starvipers doesn't make the PS1 worth 25 points or the PS3 worth 27. Anymore than it makes the uniques worth their price.

I played the OP list. Against a 8 tie swarm (i know, not the most competitive) and a super Dash/Corran list. This is a fun list to play. It moves around and moves tight.

I have always stated that the reason you can't do to much to the t-65 and Starviper is because it will cause Guri and Biggs to be better. I know, Biggs sees play, where Guri does not. However, she is the only star viper build.

4 minutes ago, martini74 said:

I played the OP list. Against a 8 tie swarm (i know, not the most competitive) and a super Dash/Corran list. This is a fun list to play. It moves around and moves tight.

I have always stated that the reason you can't do to much to the t-65 and Starviper is because it will cause Guri and Biggs to be better. I know, Biggs sees play, where Guri does not. However, she is the only star viper build.

I've flown Xizor a lot. Guri's ability is probably a bit better, but neither is to the point that tehy become OP from buffing the ship. Guri is nowhere near Biggs or Corran level

14 hours ago, Turbo Toker said:

Yeah, and Ryad with PtL, x7, and MK II was a point more than Soontir, or 5 points more than the Inquisitor.

Fenn when used with Mindlink is just a super jouster. He could be PS 5 and Parattanni would have still been just as effective.

lol, no he couldn't. At PS5 he'd get caught at range 2 and killed trivially by people with higher PS.

Only 17 pages left to go.

One only decent pilot doesn't justify ignoring the flaws of the rest of the pilots of the Starviper set.

Just to be stupid, I'd love a new title with built-in Mindlink and costing -2.

May the 4th is almost here!

1 minute ago, Ob3ron said:

May the 4th is almost here!

I'm really hoping they'll announce the long-awaited Scum Aces StarViper/Kihraxz pack. No idea what it'll contain though, although I have my own homebrew ideas obviously.