I've seen in a few threads about how (X) Edition was the personal breaking point for them in the CCG. I thought it might be interesting to have a thread discussing these opinions. I've recently taken an interest in analyzing discontinued CCGs from a design perspective and to see what worked and what didn't, and while I think the CCG is to expansive for me to do that (simply, anyway) I've been thinking a lot about it when the previews started.
In the brief time period I played in (Gold through Lotus, with Emperor) Lotus was the most damaging to our group for numerous reasons:
-Dueling change--As someone who played dueling almost exclusively, I saw almost immediately how the rule change benefited a dueling deck while offering nothing to non-dueling decks that would inevitably be involved in duels. At first drawing the pool from the top of your deck and including one card form your hand appeared to better randomize focus results, honor running duel could afford to stack a deck with 3 and 4 focus value cards they might not use the printed effect of, making this moot. The biggest issue was how liberal focus effects became, lowering the risk involved in focusing a card since you'd still get some sort of effect. One of my favorite things in Diamond was when someone who issued a challenge would pitch cards from their hand as a bluff to force the challenger to do the same. The focus pool (and focus effects) made this much more difficult to do.
-Enlightened trait--From a story point of view, finding enlightenment as a definitive state of being didn't make much sense to me; finding it in books even less so.
-Errata--Lotus got hit with the nerf stick hard. If I remember correctly an infinite combo was found in the base set before the Kotei season. Power levels were all over the board starting with the Diamond/Lotus dual-bugged sets.

So what say you? I've seen some people mention Ivory. Surely there were some low points in ye olden days too?

I played since late Lotus/Samurai. Most problems i remember were about something "for free". Free gold (One Koku, Kalani's Landing, Fruitful Port) , Personalities for free (breeder -> Udo, Fatina), free Followers (Kyuden Hida exp.) etc.

8 minutes ago, kempy said:

I played since late Lotus/Samurai. Most problems i remember were about something "for free". Free gold, Personalities for free etc.

I noticed in my massive Emperor Edition collection that making attachments free through actions or abilities became really, really common for certain deck types. I built a Spider kensai deck for a friend that I could never beat because he didn't have to pay for any of his attachments outside of one or two unique weapons. He could focus his gold on characters and drop the attachments next turn at no cost. It was crazy.
On a similar note, it seemed like the game got a lot faster, too. I know people took issue with Gifts and Favors/A Favor Returned for basically being auto-includes, but the holdings you started with in play in Emperor shaved a whole turn or two off of most decks I played. The build up was gone.

Lotus also instroduced the OPT, which I didn't like and also changed the game a lot.

1 minute ago, Nagori-A-Go-Go said:

I noticed in my massive Emperor Edition collection that making attachments free through actions or abilities became really, really common for certain deck types. I built a Spider kensai deck for a friend that I could never beat because he didn't have to pay for any of his attachments outside of one or two unique weapons. He could focus his gold on characters and drop the attachments next turn at no cost. It was crazy.
On a similar note, it seemed like the game got a lot faster, too. I know people took issue with Gifts and Favors/A Favor Returned for basically being auto-includes, but the holdings you started with in play in Emperor shaved a whole turn or two off of most decks I played. The build up was gone.

Samurai standard deck should play at leat 18 Holdings, because in most builds if you haven't seen two Holdings turn 2 you got problem. Idea behind Celestial/Emperor was to speed up game by removing first turn "looking for Legacy" so it automatically reduced number of Holdings in decks. In Emperor i saw standard decks that played 9, maybe 12 Holdings becasue digging in 1/5 of your Dynasty first turn was huge. At this point it nearly removed concept of gold screw in L5R. Adding ability to cycling 3 cards in your hand just made things much faster. Decks became much more consistent and mixed with really powerful action. That made really explosive environment that in result received two long banlists. TBH post banlists Emperor was amazing edition, every clan had it's own Tier1 deck(s).

(Yesterday i got a small conversation with my friend about Emperor at all and i started digging for some stats from our Koteis (thanks to nice playerbase we got two per season). I've found that in 2012 at first Kotei there were 7 various clans in Top8, and also 7 clans in Top8 at second one. In 2013 first Top8 was filled with 5 Clans, and in second Kotei with 6. I even didn't remember thing looked this way).

Until Celestial came along I would agree that Lotus had been the worst, but I kept playing through Lotus, while Celestial broke my will to continue playing and also to continue reading the weekly fictions, there was just nothing left (the only think I had read then towards the end was the conclusion of the Noritoshi vs Jimen story). Sure, I got me my Crane starter for Emperor edition but I still had been burned out at that point from the game.

47 minutes ago, Drudenfusz said:

Until Celestial came along I would agree that Lotus had been the worst, but I kept playing through Lotus, while Celestial broke my will to continue playing and also to continue reading the weekly fictions, there was just nothing left (the only think I had read then towards the end was the conclusion of the Noritoshi vs Jimen story). Sure, I got me my Crane starter for Emperor edition but I still had been burned out at that point from the game.

Sorry for OT, but i'm wondering how many people left really becasue of ruleset/card design comparing to many other causes like money issues, burning out, no players. My group has starting melting when me and one of my buddies started to be more serious, more competetive. That completely scared all the rest.

Playwise, for me it was Lotus (I think that's the one, correct me if I wrong). Too many decks got specific mechanics: Mantis harpooning, Unicorn province shaneningans, Scorpion Ninjitsu.... It was like each deck played a completely different game, and you had to learn the rules to all of them.

Storywise, it was the end of the Toturi Dynasty. Too obviously railroaded, all surviving Toturi scions were killed by story fiat because they needed to go to make room for the next plot. Which I kind of understand, but it was clumsily plotted.

1 hour ago, Drudenfusz said:

Until Celestial came along I would agree that Lotus had been the worst, but I kept playing through Lotus, while Celestial broke my will to continue playing and also to continue reading the weekly fictions, there was just nothing left (the only think I had read then towards the end was the conclusion of the Noritoshi vs Jimen story). Sure, I got me my Crane starter for Emperor edition but I still had been burned out at that point from the game.

I would also agree on Celestrial... The rules were Samurai with a few tweeks (which I liked) but the introduction of Celestrials and their random broken effects made the game an absolute mess. From what I have gathered Emperor was worse. I actually re-entered the game with Ivory as they got rid of the Celestrials and streamlined the rules. Unfortunately Ivory was not very good and I only stuck around to see what Obsidian had to offer.

8 minutes ago, Yandia said:

Unfortunately Ivory was not very good and I only stuck around to see what Obsidian had to offer.

Onyx.

59 minutes ago, kempy said:

Sorry for OT, but i'm wondering how many people left really becasue of ruleset/card design comparing to many other causes like money issues, burning out, no players. My group has starting melting when me and one of my buddies started to be more serious, more competetive. That completely scared all the rest.

Speaking for my group, we were pretty competitive for most of my run (me not so much until Lotus). A lot of us moved, went to college, etc. around the start of samurai. But before then most of us were vocal about how broken things seemed in Lotus. I don't know how many of us continued after the group went its ways.

14 minutes ago, Yandia said:

I would also agree on Celestrial... The rules were Samurai with a few tweeks (which I liked) but the introduction of Celestrials

I personally really like the Celestial card type but since I've played maybe five games of Emperor I can't say I know how well they work. Some seem really under powered in comparison to, say, the starter Kami Celestials.

10 minutes ago, Nagori-A-Go-Go said:

I personally really like the Celestial card type but since I've played maybe five games of Emperor I can't say I know how well they work. Some seem really under powered in comparison to, say, the starter Kami Celestials.

Some were less good, but some were pretty nutty like Shiba's Guidance XP Jurojin's Guidance. Doji's Guidance XP was also quite good.

I'd have to say Ivory was my low point with the game. Having only played since Samurai Edition, I found Ivory to be extremely boring and bland. I stopped playing for the most part, but kept my eye on things and still participated in the community. I started back up when 20f got released. The game felt in a better place to me.

9 minutes ago, Nagori-A-Go-Go said:

Speaking for my group, we were pretty competitive for most of my run (me not so much until Lotus). A lot of us moved, went to college, etc. around the start of samurai. But before then most of us were vocal about how broken things seemed in Lotus. I don't know how many of us continued after the group went its ways.

I personally really like the Celestial card type but since I've played maybe five games of Emperor I can't say I know how well they work. Some seem really under powered in comparison to, say, the starter Kami Celestials.

At all most played Celestials in EE were these ones (except Clan specific): http://imgur.com/a/XY9qZ

Surprised it's not come up yet, but... Goddesses, Part IV. I'd been disappointed with story developments before (like the pointless extension of the Atsuki storyline from Gold into Diamond, or the infamous 300 Crab > the entire Scorpion Clan), but Goddesses was just insane. I don't know who at AEG was responsible for just how far the setting would knot itself for the Spider's satisfaction, but it was the point in the story where I became convinced that who won or lost story tournaments mattered less than someone at AEG liking one faction over another.

24 minutes ago, kempy said:

Onyx.

Right... one of the black jewels.

17 minutes ago, Nagori-A-Go-Go said:

I personally really like the Celestial card type but since I've played maybe five games of Emperor I can't say I know how well they work. Some seem really under powered in comparison to, say, the starter Kami Celestials.

I had two problems with them.

1. They were essentially glorified events and there was no good reason why celestrial could not have been a keyword on a event card.

2. They made the game to swingy. When both had their Celestrials out everything was fine. If both did not have their Celestrials everything was fine. In all other cases things often went downhill fast.

16 minutes ago, SirEuain said:

Surprised it's not come up yet, but... Goddesses, Part IV. I'd been disappointed with story developments before (like the pointless extension of the Atsuki storyline from Gold into Diamond, or the infamous 300 Crab > the entire Scorpion Clan), but Goddesses was just insane. I don't know who at AEG was responsible for just how far the setting would knot itself for the Spider's satisfaction, but it was the point in the story where I became convinced that who won or lost story tournaments mattered less than someone at AEG liking one faction over another.

Goddesses was the best story!

Just now, Sparks Duh said:

Goddesses was the best story!

I'm glad you enjoyed the singular story that drove most of my friends from the game and made it financially wasteful for me to bother continuing.

9 minutes ago, SirEuain said:

Surprised it's not come up yet, but... Goddesses, Part IV. I'd been disappointed with story developments before (like the pointless extension of the Atsuki storyline from Gold into Diamond, or the infamous 300 Crab > the entire Scorpion Clan), but Goddesses was just insane. I don't know who at AEG was responsible for just how far the setting would knot itself for the Spider's satisfaction, but it was the point in the story where I became convinced that who won or lost story tournaments mattered less than someone at AEG liking one faction over another.

I blame that on a mostly prewritten story and AEG accidentally putting Kyuden Ashinagabachi on the Kotei map as a province to be defended. A final battle that was supposed to be in Scorpion lands ended up at the Wasp stronghold.

For me? The absolute nadir was Ivory Edition.

The end of Celestial was rocky, and Emperor definitely became a degenerate nightmare, but the rules changes of Ivory were like suddenly slamming on the brakes at 100mph... survivable, but man, it is not a fun experience. I actually really liked where Twenty Festivals was taking things, in terms of gameplay, but... Ivory was "empty your hand one card at a time for 1or 2 force apiece" edition. Didn't help that the toxin that was free gold returned, even in a muted form.

And the Story Team was basically down to Shawn and Spooky (and he was tasked with that novel we'll almost certainly never get now), so output suffered.

Ivory was an edition in which the CCG wasn't fun for me to play, and the story was basically nonexistent. I have no doubt it directly contributed to our being here, on an FFG board, having this conversation.

It wasn't anything about the rules that led me to give up. It was when the local regular casual L5R tourneys became solely a place to test your Kotei decks, making it no longer fun to play at.

2 minutes ago, Tonbo Karasu said:

It wasn't anything about the rules that led me to give up. It was when the local regular casual L5R tourneys became solely a place to test your Kotei decks, making it no longer fun to play at.

That was a problem since Lotus. Kitchen Table L5R essentially died and that was a problem for the community.

Just now, Ultimatecalibur said:

I blame that on a mostly prewritten story and AEG accidentally putting Kyuden Ashinagabachi on the Kotei map as a province to be defended. A final battle that was supposed to be in Scorpion lands ended up at the Wasp stronghold.

And yet the Second Pit was somehow located elsewhere.

That AEG kept forgetting the Scorpion Clan in an arc primarily taking place in Scorpion lands was only part of it. Goddesses meant that everyone else in the Empire compromised with the Spider. It meant that the entire universe rewrote itself in favor of the Spider. It meant the culmination of an entire arc about the Spider was, for all intents and purposes, AEG doubling down on how much cooler and more awesome the Spider were than anyone else in the Empire. For most of my friends who still played, it meant AEG told them to play Spider or not bother playing at all, so they picked the latter.

In exchange, despite the supposedly earth-shattering losses that the Spider suffered, all that happened was that Shahai went a couple hours being upset at her dead hubby and, eventually, Michio would be declared dead, too. On paper, the Spider suffered more losses than anyone else, but if you counted by actual dead who didn't get promoted to gods, you'd never know.

Somehow, AEG thought it'd be a good idea to revisit this line of thought with Onyx.

Breeder in Celestial sucked. But I also loved the end of Celestial when I was playing a Mantis dueling deck out of the Open: get 4 gold for actions Box.

7 minutes ago, SirEuain said:

And yet the Second Pit was somehow located elsewhere.

That AEG kept forgetting the Scorpion Clan in an arc primarily taking place in Scorpion lands was only part of it. Goddesses meant that everyone else in the Empire compromised with the Spider. It meant that the entire universe rewrote itself in favor of the Spider. It meant the culmination of an entire arc about the Spider was, for all intents and purposes, AEG doubling down on how much cooler and more awesome the Spider were than anyone else in the Empire. For most of my friends who still played, it meant AEG told them to play Spider or not bother playing at all, so they picked the latter.

In exchange, despite the supposedly earth-shattering losses that the Spider suffered, all that happened was that Shahai went a couple hours being upset at her dead hubby and, eventually, Michio would be declared dead, too. On paper, the Spider suffered more losses than anyone else, but if you counted by actual dead who didn't get promoted to gods, you'd never know.

Somehow, AEG thought it'd be a good idea to revisit this line of thought with Onyx.

That's right. The spider were there only to make the rest of the empire suffer! muahahahaha

Good times!