@Ginkapo I need some help. Maybe I am wrong but I understand this kind of fleets fit fine with you.

Idea: I want to go first with activation advantage (5 are enough in my zone) with those two beasts. Be able to deal with squadrlns (no matter if it requires skill for my part).

Problem: bid. I don't know where save some points from. Maybe I could make it work as second. If this is true how? Objectives? Advanced gunnery is interesting with that raider but maybe Most Wanted is easier. No idea for the others. I usually don't go heavy squadorns but I never went so light. I like it but I never dared.

Ginka beasts 1.0 (398/400)
=========================
Imperial I-class Star Destroyer (110 + 35)
+ Admiral Motti (24)
+ Gunnery Team (7)
+ Leading Shots (4)
Imperial I-class Star Destroyer (110 + 11)
+ Gunnery Team (7)
+ Leading Shots (4)
Raider I-class Corvette (44 + 11)
+ Ordnance Experts (4)
+ Flechette Torpedoes (3)
+ Instigator (4)
Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 + 7)
+ Slicer Tools (7)
Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 + 7)
+ Slicer Tools (7)
Ciena Ree (17)

Horrendously wrong. THis is PT's territory.

Shift Motti to Gozanti. Drop all the gunnery teams, and switch LS for OE. Look at your side arcs.

Alternatively, can you fit Jonus, Jump, Zertik, Mauler alongside two naked ISD's?

1 hour ago, Ginkapo said:

Horrendously wrong. THis is PT's territory.

Shift Motti to Gozanti. Drop all the gunnery teams, and switch LS for OE. Look at your side arcs.

Alternatively, can you fit Jonus, Jump, Zertik, Mauler alongside two naked ISD's?

I take GT for anti squadron salvos. But I will try it.

EDIT 1: OE better than LS? The last one works on reds too.

EDIT 2: ok side arcs!

1 hour ago, Ginkapo said:

Alternatively, can you fit Jonus, Jump, Zertik, Mauler alongside two naked ISD's?

Only if I drop one activation or going all naked without a big bid.

Last edit (I hope): who is PT?

He meant @pt106, but I'll chip in since this is essentially my fleet from the Vassal Freshman tournament. And Gink is right, drop those GT's like hot potatoes. You'll get those anti-squadron shots a lot less than you'd like unless your meta is so swimming in squads this list needs to turn both of those Gozantis into another Raider, and Leading Shots is only relevant if you have a pair of fore-arc medium shots or better. Motti makes the ISDs incredibly tough, but they're far from invincible.

Provided you're not a nitwit (I know you aren't, but emphasis here), Advanced Gunnery is a terrifying choice for this fleet. If the enemy can't bring down that Star Destroyer (and the kitchen sink and the refrigerator will fly), it will clean clocks with Swiss precision. Regarding the Raider, a lone OE/FT very badly wants to go first. I'm sure it can be flown second player, but it makes Instigator's survival much more dicey. Any squadron player worth their salt will fire up the carrier first, and blow it to hell. Now obviously at least some of his good bombers have gone, but that will rarely be commensurate with what she could have done going first and firing willy-nilly. I'm fond of the Kallus/Impetuous configuration, but if you prefer Instigator by all means. Ciena will help Instigator more than Impetuous, but it's not a combo I've tried so I won't comment on it.

My only other thoughts are to use SFOs, and that I had good results with Comms Net and Defense Liaisons, but the latter is superfluous once you have enough practice. Deployment is everything, and this fleet is extremely unforgiving of stupid mistakes (see my last game against Hystarr). If you're going to try to fly this fleet fancy, it had better work, or it will blow up in your face with prejudice. On the other hand, your points are tucked away behind either fourteen hull or a Scatter (the Raider always dies for me, but it almost always is worth it for pushing squads around by threat alone). Let me know if I need to elaborate on any of this.

Several thoughts:

1. I don't think Cienna Ree alone is worth the points. In this case I would either increase the coverage to Cienna/Valen or drop her and go squadronless with something like:

398/400

ISD1: OE/XI7

ISD1: OE/XI7

Raider1

Raider1

Gozanti

Gozanti: Motti

2. If the idea is to use flechettes and slicers to mitigate squad threat

397/400

ISD1: SFO/OE/XI7

ISD1: SFO/OE/XI7

Raider1: OE/Flechettes

Gozanti: Comms Net

Gozanti: Comms Net,Motti

Essentially i think that for cheap ISD1s you want to maximize the chance to kill whatever ends up in the front arc at close range (therefore OE/XI7) and navigate to maximize the chance something ends up there at least once. I don't like keeping Motti on an ISD in a 2ISD build, because now there is a prime target that you must protect and you cant play hyperagressively with both of your ISDs. I don't like Adv Gunnery for a same reason and would go with Most Wanted instead.

Another possibility is asymmetrical ISD builds where 1 ISD is more long range combat/flotilla killing and a second one is a close range brawler, however this may be beyond the scope of the current fleet discussion.

EDIT: The idea of using Gunnery teams for antisquadron shots is solid but it requires significant investment in AS dice. Its hard to get squadrons in the close range of multiple black dice ships.

I will think on all you said calmly and will go back. Thanks!

Okay let's go:

1. I dropped GT. Not sure cause I like how it works against squadron but this would be the first time (maybe the second but who cares) I play some thing like that so I will trust on your suggestion.

2. LS >>> OE it has sense now if I am not going to shoot twice from the front arc. LS would mean near +0.8 while OE means +1.25 both without going into AA shots.

3. Commander will fly less comfortably inside of a box into a Gozanti hangar bay. "I don't like keeping Motti on an ISD in a 2ISD build, because now there is a prime target that you must protect and you cant play hyperagressively with both of your ISDs." This definitely has the point.

4. Motti >>> JJ. I don't like Motti (despite I think he is great). I love JJ. With just 5 deployment and after reading @Ardaedhel's deployment curve I think JJ will help my ISDs a lot turning 180> at speed 2/3 if needed. On the other hand I don't have any SFO so JJ will save my "navigate commands" even when he won't do the same with my engineering.

5. I don't like Ciena+Rudor with Instigator cause Rudor is useless to the use I wanted (lock the intel and engage precisely with Ciena). Anyway, again, I will trust and go squadronless. I make good use of Instigator almost always but I will need some points so I dropped too.

6. I love the idea of xi7. Nothing more frustrating than shoot big and see how the enemy ship making the shoot essentially irrelevant (not so far but you understand me). If I go big I go big.

7. Slicers. I like it. Maybe not two but I would like at least 1.

At the end I got some points that allow me some permutations.

First one

1st (386/400)
==========
Imperial II-class Star Destroyer (120 + 15)
+ Reinforced Blast Doors (5)
+ Leading Shots (4)
+ XI7 Turbolasers (6)
Imperial I-class Star Destroyer (110 + 17)
+ Minister Tua (2)
+ Ordnance Experts (4)
+ XI7 Turbolasers (6)
+ Reinforced Blast Doors (5)
Raider I-class Corvette (44 + 7)
+ Ordnance Experts (4)
+ Flechette Torpedoes (3)
Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 + 25)
+ Moff Jerjerrod (23)
+ Comms Net (2)
Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 + 2)
+ Comms Net (2)

Points spent on range and plate. No room for slicers

Second one

2nd (385/400)
==========
Imperial I-class Star Destroyer (110 + 16)
+ Ordnance Experts (4)
+ Phylon Q7 Tractor Beams (6)
+ XI7 Turbolasers (6)
Imperial I-class Star Destroyer (110 + 16)
+ Ordnance Experts (4)
+ Phylon Q7 Tractor Beams (6)
+ XI7 Turbolasers (6)
Raider I-class Corvette (44 + 7)
+ Ordnance Experts (4)
+ Flechette Torpedoes (3)
Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 + 25)
+ Moff Jerjerrod (23)
+ Comms Net (2)
Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 + 11)
+ Slicer Tools (7)
+ Suppressor (4)

Points spent on Phylons to manipulate the enemy navigation. Slicer and Suppressor for a little nightmare.

Third one

3rd (385/400)
==========
Imperial I-class Star Destroyer (110 + 18)
+ Defense Liaison (3)
+ Ordnance Experts (4)
+ Quad Laser Turrets (5)
+ XI7 Turbolasers (6)
Imperial I-class Star Destroyer (110 + 18)
+ Defense Liaison (3)
+ Ordnance Experts (4)
+ Quad Laser Turrets (5)
+ XI7 Turbolasers (6)
Raider I-class Corvette (44 + 7)
+ Ordnance Experts (4)
+ Flechette Torpedoes (3)
Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 + 25)
+ Moff Jerjerrod (23)
+ Comms Net (2)
Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 + 7)
+ Slicer Tools (7)

Slicer and squadron punishment. It could go with Phylon instead of QLT. The main think I looked for this time were the liasons to keep navigation and engineering. With this change I could go back to Motti but I didn't cause the reasons I said above.

Didn't work on objectives yet but as red one I will go MW probably. Ideas? Thoughts?

I like the first one best, but the second is probably the one that will wreak the most havoc, since any fleet that can beat that many tractors wouldn't care about that to begin with. Everyone else you have an okay chance of either ruining command stacks or dragging them in front of the ISDs longer. QLTs is useful, but it won't kill anything on its own, it just makes the ISDs prickly. It's what you bring to deal with squadrons, and in any case where you will take enough squadron fire to make back QLTs, you probably want Gunnery Teams for better ASq to actually kill things. I presume the bid is being dictated by your meta, otherwise the 9 points for Tua/ECM would make Suppressor hilariously survivable.

Out of all these fleets I like fleet N2. One suggestion - what if you'll add a second slicer and Konstantine instead of JJ? It may end up being an interesting surprise fleet.

I can provide more advice, but I think at this point it may be worth to try and play those so you can get a feel of the fleet and its strong and weak points.

7 hours ago, pt106 said:

Out of all these fleets I like fleet N2. One suggestion - what if you'll add a second slicer and Konstantine instead of JJ? It may end up being an interesting surprise fleet.

I can provide more advice, but I think at this point it may be worth to try and play those so you can get a feel of the fleet and its strong and weak points.

It could be a nice beginning for a Konstantin fleet. I will try to test the second one this week.

On 23/4/2017 at 9:35 PM, ovinomanc3r said:

Second one

2nd (385/400)
==========
Imperial I-class Star Destroyer (110 + 16)
+ Ordnance Experts (4)
+ Phylon Q7 Tractor Beams (6)
+ XI7 Turbolasers (6)
Imperial I-class Star Destroyer (110 + 16)
+ Ordnance Experts (4)
+ Phylon Q7 Tractor Beams (6)
+ XI7 Turbolasers (6)
Raider I-class Corvette (44 + 7)
+ Ordnance Experts (4)
+ Flechette Torpedoes (3)
Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 + 25)
+ Moff Jerjerrod (23)
+ Comms Net (2)
Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 + 11)
+ Slicer Tools (7)
+ Suppressor (4)

Points spent on Phylons to manipulate the enemy navigation. Slicer and Suppressor for a little nightmare.

Tested!

4 matches: 3 victories.

The only defeat was against Rhymer and friends but, actually I loose cause two mistakes were done. I don't first-activate with one of the ISD. I had no shields but had hull and tokens so I felt relatively safe and choose to "slice" one carrier. He get one accuracy on each shot with his own ISD flagship so done

The second mistake was moving out of the table with the second ISD. I had a nav token and JJ so I chose avoid the ram cause it was not necessary. I moved out by "." Exactly that was all the surface my ISD put out It became a 6-5/5-6 match into a 1-10

Slicer was gold.

Phylons were gold.

Actually I think the list is pretty solid cause the main threats (MSU and 134 carriers) are really well manage through this two upgrades and my own heavy-power+5 activation.

I am not sure about its competitiveness. My victories were 7-4 and 6-5 but maybe is the lack of practice.

VIP>Outpost for sure!

Solar Corona < navigational hazards... maybe. I have to try navigational.

Most wanted the winner of course.