Arc dodging is a ton of fun and part of what got me into this game. Jousting I always found rather boring, "1-straight to victory" and whatnot. I love imagining myself in a TIE Interceptor, going fast, dodging my opponent's guns, shooting them up a bit, disengaging and coming in from a different angle next time. I'd love to play these types of ships competitively again. Or hell, I wish the game was back in a state where lists consisting of small base ships that can only attack out of a primary firing arc was the norm rather than the exception.

2 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

Flying in circles gets much better when you don't play in a 3x3 litterbox. In this week's Epic, I never so much as used a red maneuver, let alone a K turn.

I wonder if a "fix/nerf" for PTW is -1 dice to attack when out of front arc. Elegant; logical, no card changes necessary.

And I agree with the sentiment that medium bases needs to be a thing.

I agree that a "fix/nerf" for PWT would be a good idea, but I feel like this idea cuts to deep. If this was the case, the average PWT of attack 3 would never hit versus a ship with autothrusters and we would be right back into a situation where a ship isn't worth the points you pay for it. How about just adding a line in the main rules section about defense dice bonuses. 1 extra evade dice or maybe a re-roll of one evade dice when being attacked by a primary weapon out of arc. It would not effect turrets (you pay extra for this weapons) or the Outrider title or Nera's Torps. Just my take. In an ideal world, every PWT ship could also take a free(slot-wise) mod that allows for the rotate arc action to get around this new rule, but it would cost them their action.

1 hour ago, JJFDVORAK said:

I agree that a "fix/nerf" for PWT would be a good idea, but I feel like this idea cuts to deep. If this was the case, the average PWT of attack 3 would never hit versus a ship with autothrusters and we would be right back into a situation where a ship isn't worth the points you pay for it. How about just adding a line in the main rules section about defense dice bonuses. 1 extra evade dice or maybe a re-roll of one evade dice when being attacked by a primary weapon out of arc. It would not effect turrets (you pay extra for this weapons) or the Outrider title or Nera's Torps. Just my take. In an ideal world, every PWT ship could also take a free(slot-wise) mod that allows for the rotate arc action to get around this new rule, but it would cost them their action.

Or maybe +0/+1/+1. If you're up in the ship's junk, you should get shot

Seriously, this game could really stand a 2.0 for stuff like this.

44 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Or maybe +0/+1/+1. If you're up in the ship's junk, you should get shot

Seriously, this game could really stand a 2.0 for stuff like this.

I'm all for a 2.0 as long as all my models and cards stay relevant. And if you have to change a handful of cards to allow the necessary improvements, just FAQ them for the time being then rerelease them with the proper changes a few at a time in each new wave. As a matter of fact, they should already be doing that with the current nerfs/buffs/wording changes now. Just reprint them with the changes and put a few in each wave. Most people buy at least one of each ship anyway.

30 minutes ago, JJFDVORAK said:

I'm all for a 2.0 as long as all my models and cards stay relevant. And if you have to change a handful of cards to allow the necessary improvements, just FAQ them for the time being then rerelease them with the proper changes a few at a time in each new wave. As a matter of fact, they should already be doing that with the current nerfs/buffs/wording changes now. Just reprint them with the changes and put a few in each wave. Most people buy at least one of each ship anyway.

Well, yeah. The models for sure; I would think a huge cardboard + rule book rerelease would be the way to go. If it has to have a ship, toss in repaints or the senator's shuttle to make it "legit." And let all the old stuff be legal, BUT if there is a conflict, it is up to the player using old materials to be aware of the changes, and play by the 2.0 rules (which is the same as using the FAQ). Any errata-ed card should have been reprinted corrected from its point of change in the first place, IMHO.

6 hours ago, Odanan said:

I have 2 big complains about this game: the way turrets/360º primary attacks were designed from the start (because IRL fighters with frontal aimed guns are much better than those with turrets, which can't hit anything) AND how large ships can maneuver better than starfighters. Heck, those problems even usually come together. I would like if this game was much more about positioning than just flying in circles.

PS: also, there are no "medium size ships", leading to some monstrosities like the ARC and K-Wing (too big for the small base) and the U-Wing (too small for the large base).

Couldn't agree more.

I agree somehow FFG should issue altered cards to players who want them; a kit of some kind covering all the altered cards. I guess there needs to be some proof from the applicant that they have purchased the original plastic and card (as Palp costs loads of $$), but there might be some way to do that, IDK. But h**l, players like, when we have our casual on, man up and don't really care about FAQs and Erratas, we just "smoke 'me if we got 'em."

It would make sense if any attack made outside your firing arc used 1 less dice.

1 minute ago, clanofwolves said:

I agree somehow FFG should issue altered cards to players who want them; a kit of some kind covering all the altered cards. I guess there needs to be some proof from the applicant that they have purchased the original plastic and card (as Palp costs loads of $$), but there might be some way to do that, IDK. But h**l, players like, when we have our casual on, man up and don't really care about FAQs and Erratas, we just "smoke 'me if we got 'em."

It could come as stickers (with some special glue that doesn't damage the card, if you remove it)... just glue them on the errataed cards and done.

7 minutes ago, Odanan said:

It could come as stickers (with some special glue that doesn't damage the card, if you remove it)... just glue them on the errataed cards and done.

...akin to the stickers that apply to glass that are removable? Heck, they could make sleeves that have the info on the effected area and the rest is clear. Um, I'm thinking the mouse will not want to pay for his mistakes though ?

17 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

...akin to the stickers that apply to glass that are removable? Heck, they could make sleeves that have the info on the effected area and the rest is clear. Um, I'm thinking the mouse will not want to pay for his mistakes though ?

Yes, those stickers.

And, well, I would pay for that.

I can only 'like' a comment once. Both of y'all are spot on.

Most of the time I am playing against friends/family; very casual play. I had to buy multiple core sets just so there was enough damage decks to go around.

In this setting, it is highly annoying to try to explain "well, that card has changed too." Ugh

A penalty to turrets, re-evaluate large base dials and issue out corrected cards. Please!

7 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

I wonder if a "fix/nerf" for PTW is -1 dice to attack when out of front arc. Elegant; logical, no card changes necessary.

If this is too much, then give +1 green die on defense instead.

2 hours ago, Odanan said:

Yes, those stickers.

And, well, I would pay for that.

This sticker idea is stupid, it'd just be cheaper to reprint the cards.

And even cheaper than that would be to put it in the FAQ and tell everyone to stop being a whiny ***** about it.

I agree with so much that has been said. In a game as competitive as X-wing there just will always be an meta. And it won't always be the meta that we want. And though a meta can be in a bad place, the exsistance of a meta isn't by definition a bad place.

But Arc Dodging was a fun way to play the game. I remember when people were complaining about all the Imperial Aces (Just before Palp came in and made Soontir almost unkillable.) Aces were where the meta was, if you waned to win a tournament your best bet was with Aces. It was a fun time. But I will also say it wasn't an easy time. Flying aces was hard. It may have looked easy when you were fighting Soontir and never got anything but a range 3 shot on him all game, but inside your opponent's mind they were stressed out that they were going to be able to keep Soontir out of everyone's arc for one more turn, and looking ahead to see what they needed to do to keep this going. Because, if you made a mistake with a TIE Interceptor, it could evaporate in a single round of shooting. Lot's of ships have three attack dice and with a focus three hits isn't that uncommon. Follow that up with a whiff of green dice and Soontir could be dead.

But when something rises to the top, other things will come to face them. Bombs have been around for so long in this game, and they have come into the meta so people could find a way to fight those hard to kill Palp and x7 defended Imperial ships.

29 minutes ago, Hrathen said:

I agree with so much that has been said. In a game as competitive as X-wing there just will always be an meta. And it won't always be the meta that we want. And though a meta can be in a bad place, the exsistance of a meta isn't by definition a bad place.

But Arc Dodging was a fun way to play the game. I remember when people were complaining about all the Imperial Aces (Just before Palp came in and made Soontir almost unkillable.) Aces were where the meta was, if you waned to win a tournament your best bet was with Aces. It was a fun time. But I will also say it wasn't an easy time. Flying aces was hard. It may have looked easy when you were fighting Soontir and never got anything but a range 3 shot on him all game, but inside your opponent's mind they were stressed out that they were going to be able to keep Soontir out of everyone's arc for one more turn, and looking ahead to see what they needed to do to keep this going. Because, if you made a mistake with a TIE Interceptor, it could evaporate in a single round of shooting. Lot's of ships have three attack dice and with a focus three hits isn't that uncommon. Follow that up with a whiff of green dice and Soontir could be dead.

But when something rises to the top, other things will come to face them. Bombs have been around for so long in this game, and they have come into the meta so people could find a way to fight those hard to kill Palp and x7 defended Imperial ships.

No, they just did a 2 green hard turn and sat on focus focus evade 3 agility Stealth Device (Autothrusters) (range 3) (Palpatine). Soontir players never sweat anything back when the game was dominated by him.

Bombs are only relevant now because of Sabine.

Two hard turning every round with Soonts against anyone who knew what they were doing was only ever a method of getting him blocked and taken out.

7 hours ago, Turbo Toker said:

This sticker idea is stupid, it'd just be cheaper to reprint the cards.

And even cheaper than that would be to put it in the FAQ and tell everyone to stop being a whiny ***** about it.

I'll try to be polite with you, even if you don't deserve.

The core business in this game is not only selling plastic miniatures, but cards. Many people buy some expansions only because of 1 or 2 cards that comes is there. If FFG gives away reprinted Palpatines, the Raider sells will drop.

A sticker with only the changed area isn't expensive at all. Also, if FFG wants to change an errataed card again, they wouldn't need a third or forth reprint for the whole card.

7 hours ago, Turbo Toker said:

No, they just did a 2 green hard turn and sat on focus focus evade 3 agility Stealth Device (Autothrusters) (range 3) (Palpatine). Soontir players never sweat anything back when the game was dominated by him.

Bombs are only relevant now because of Sabine.

Sigh, you didn't even read what he said, did you? How much of interceptors have you actually flown?

7 hours ago, Turbo Toker said:

No, they just did a 2 green hard turn and sat on focus focus evade 3 agility Stealth Device (Autothrusters) (range 3) (Palpatine). Soontir players never sweat anything back when the game was dominated by him.

Bombs are only relevant now because of Sabine.

Ok, just stop trolling. You are obviously trolling, have never played with or well against arc dodgers, or are being intentionally dumb, because every statement you have made is ridiculously wrong.

1 hour ago, Odanan said:

I'll try to be polite with you, even if you don't deserve.

The core business in this game is not only selling plastic miniatures, but cards. Many people buy some expansions only because of 1 or 2 cards that comes is there. If FFG gives away reprinted Palpatines, the Raider sells will drop.

A sticker with only the changed area isn't expensive at all. Also, if FFG wants to change an errataed card again, they wouldn't need a third or forth reprint for the whole card.

Personally, I have to say I don't like the sticker idea either. Stickers peel, unstick, and generally would not be as slick as a reprinted card.

I'm not sure how I feel about the idea of making people buy a model to get a card. Mostly, I tend to think "if you are a meta freak, then you just have to pony up." The only thing that would make me sad is to see Raider sales drop, because I want Epic supported. Maybe Palpatine doesn't get a reprint because it is such a high value card. Or, at major tournaments you turn in your old Palps for a reprint.

And lastly, if FFG begins releasing 3-4 revisions per card, this game is seriously screwed up and probably not worth continuing.

Not to re-rail the thread from very interesting card reprinting/stickers/etc. but I'm thinking:

...the only way we can get that fun Arc-dodging feel when flying against top-tier meta sporting players is to fly Protectorate-Mindlink squads of some sort. They are a bit less glass-canon as they have one more hull, they don't have evade, but they have Mindlink. This latest Mindlink Nerf thread actually leans towards not removing it from fighters like the Protectorate.

I think I'm gonna pick up two and try 'em with a Manaroo variant....you know, join the crowd.

Well again, what do you mean by arc dodging? Better maneuver dial or after maneuver repositioning?

The thing about preNerf Whisper was the the after maneuver repositioning isn't that hard to play, but is very frustrating to play against. Since the "Arc Dodger" has perfect information it will never be in arc unless you are really blind or against someone who is considerably better skill than you.

So Repositioning Arc Dodging is not that challenging of a list to play, sure turrets is an easier list but the re positioning Arc Dodging is like the Pre Nerf Palpatine. It doesn't take a lot of skill to see a bad roll and change it.

51 minutes ago, Marinealver said:

Well again, what do you mean by arc dodging? Better maneuver dial or after maneuver repositioning?

The thing about preNerf Whisper was the the after maneuver repositioning isn't that hard to play, but is very frustrating to play against. Since the "Arc Dodger" has perfect information it will never be in arc unless you are really blind or against someone who is considerably better skill than you.

So Repositioning Arc Dodging is not that challenging of a list to play, sure turrets is an easier list but the re positioning Arc Dodging is like the Pre Nerf Palpatine. It doesn't take a lot of skill to see a bad roll and change it.

Any ship can arc-dodge, but the ships that excel at it are the ones that both a) are good at it because they have High PS and can Barrel Roll and or Boost, and b) need to because they have low health. These ships also tend to have high agility, and upgrades to make them harder to hit, but that is a consequence of b) The whole Palp thing wasn't so much an arc-dodge tactic as an arc-dodger buff.

This was a really fun way to play, that rewarded skill and really punished mistakes. (Palp did make those mistakes less punishing, but you couldn't win a tournament with arc-dodging aces and make mistakes.)

3 minutes ago, Hrathen said:

Any ship can arc-dodge, but the ships that excel at it are the ones that both a) are good at it because they have High PS and can Barrel Roll and or Boost, and b) need to because they have low health. These ships also tend to have high agility, and upgrades to make them harder to hit, but that is a consequence of b) The whole Palp thing wasn't so much an arc-dodge tactic as an arc-dodger buff.

This was a really fun way to play, that rewarded skill and really punished mistakes. (Palp did make those mistakes less punishing, but you couldn't win a tournament with arc-dodging aces and make mistakes.)

Well any list can be punished, it is just easier to see those mistakes with those high squadron point low hit point ships. It is easier to say woops when a third to a half of your glass cannon Ace list is gone from a single attack, than it is to say woops when 5 of your 8 TIE Fighters don't have shots in arc. Both of those are game losing mistakes in their own way. One is just a slow death from a mortal wound instead of a quick death from a decapitation.