I consider myself a competitive player who simply is limited by RL to a couple majors a year and then just club tourneys... and I've played war games competitively for 20 years. So I get that metas evolve and good players need to too.

But I want to play a game where the arcs matter again. I love A-Wings, TIE Fighters, Interceptors, Strikers, etc. But competitive play feels like it's bombs, turrets, massive health/shield totals, repeat attacks, healing, and large ships... so not Imperial, so not high agility/low health, so different.

Should I just accept that X-Wing is more and more World of Tanks and less and less WWI? Or should I hold out hope that somehow the game might come back around to small agile ships trying to shake an enemy off their six and get sights on a foe again?

It seems the answer is pretty much implied by your post: the competitive scene is what it is.

Always in motion, the future is...

The meta shifts with each wave of releases. I remember playing Soontir back in the wave 5 meta (before autothrusters and during the reign of fat turrets)

Arc dodging is one of those tricky things that the game has to balance on a knife edge. It tends to either be too powerful (think pre-nerf whisper) or too weak (pre autothrusters TIE interceptors, or current "Duchess"). When it's too powerful it can really create an NPE for your opponent.

I actually think its in a fairly good place right now. You can out play K-wing bombers if you are smart about it (once you get behind them they have a really hard time slambombing). Stuff like feedback array or slicer tools have pretty specific range bands. Basically I'm okay with arc dodging being a really hard thing to play. When its too easy the game suffers.

@KommanderKeldoth good points... I just hate being boxed into both faction and play style... namely I'd like to play iconic imperial ships and feel like I could compete... I don't mind flying uphill, but I don't like feeling like balance attempts are only half hearted.

I play Rebels and Scum sometimes too. It's just easier. Dice can still bite and mistakes happen and I still get out flown or out list built... but it's like playing poker with a strong hand instead of bluffing

37 minutes ago, Lobokai said:

@KommanderKeldoth good points... I just hate being boxed into both faction and play style... namely I'd like to play iconic imperial ships and feel like I could compete... I don't mind flying uphill, but I don't like feeling like balance attempts are only half hearted.

I play Rebels and Scum sometimes too. It's just easier. Dice can still bite and mistakes happen and I still get out flown or out list built... but it's like playing poker with a strong hand instead of bluffing

I like that simile.

I don't think FFG's balance attempts are half hearted, just imperfect. And they always will be. A game this complex has no easy answers.

I like to balance my competitive play (I usually go to multiple regional and store championships every season) with a healthy amount of casual play (friends around the dinner table, or casual game store nights). I find that it keeps my view of the game in perspective and keeps me from getting burned out. I feel thankful and fortunate that I have the luxury of being able to do that since I have a good FLGS and the time to invest in it. I guess that would be my main advice if you feel boxed in by the (current and very temporary) meta.

If you ask me, yes To me arcdodging in one of the ways where X-Wing went wrong. It just feels bad when you have to put all of your thoughtpower into planning perfect manouvers while your opponent just hard 2s and can then decide on his final position. Even worse if he is a PWT with EU, still some of the best arc-dodgers in the game. Luckily the Phantom no longer pushes this problem to the max and I have to admit that I don't miss the others either. Playing Soontir Fel never was particularly fun for me, and I always felt bad about having all the tools while my opponent had none.

In an SC a while ago I played Soontir, OL, Redline. One of my opponents just decimated my things, but couldn't crack Soontir on his last hullpoint, who then very unexcitingly plinked away a full health Horton Salm while never being in any danger of taking damage. That is the fundamental "arcdodger" experience to me.

I agree with you to a certain extent, however at least arc dodging rewards good judgment of manoeuvring and skilful play. Some of the PWT builds don't encourage this at all.

2 hours ago, Admiral Deathrain said:

If you ask me, yes To me arcdodging in one of the ways where X-Wing went wrong. It just feels bad when you have to put all of your thoughtpower into planning perfect manouvers while your opponent just hard 2s and can then decide on his final position. Even worse if he is a PWT with EU, still some of the best arc-dodgers in the game. Luckily the Phantom no longer pushes this problem to the max and I have to admit that I don't miss the others either. Playing Soontir Fel never was particularly fun for me, and I always felt bad about having all the tools while my opponent had none.

In an SC a while ago I played Soontir, OL, Redline. One of my opponents just decimated my things, but couldn't crack Soontir on his last hullpoint, who then very unexcitingly plinked away a full health Horton Salm while never being in any danger of taking damage. That is the fundamental "arcdodger" experience to me.

I love arc dodging. It actually does require quite a bit of judgement and prediction. If you literally just try to pull hard 2 turns every round a skillful opponent will easily block you up and chop you down. Also when playing the classic Push the Limit style of arc dodgers (Interceptors or Jake Farrel) you should really try to minimize the number times you have to use both of your actions for repositioning since it tends to leave you vulnerable and/or without good attack modifications.

I think arc dodging is what hooked me into X-wing in the first place. It's a super fun part of the game as long as it is where it should be: high risk and high reward. Pre-nerf phantom and pre-nerf palp aces are examples of when it stops being high risk.

1 hour ago, KommanderKeldoth said:

I love arc dodging. It actually does require quite a bit of judgement and prediction. If you literally just try to pull hard 2 turns every round a skillful opponent will easily block you up and chop you down. Also when playing the classic Push the Limit style of arc dodgers (Interceptors or Jake Farrel) you should really try to minimize the number times you have to use both of your actions for repositioning since it tends to leave you vulnerable and/or without good attack modifications.

I think arc dodging is what hooked me into X-wing in the first place. It's a super fun part of the game as long as it is where it should be: high risk and high reward. Pre-nerf phantom and pre-nerf palp aces are examples of when it stops being high risk.

Yeah, someone who is good at VI Carnor deserves respect, because unlike the typical arcdodger that ship has no room for error.

Whatever prediction ability you need is still infinitely smaller than whats required on the other side. It, like K-Wing bombing, is an non-interactive skill. Sure you need to master it first, but once you do little input from your opponent matters. The thing about 2 turn to victory is hyperbole of course, disengagements are also important.

Furball events are very good for arc dodging fun.

2 hours ago, KommanderKeldoth said:

I think arc dodging is what hooked me into X-wing in the first place. It's a super fun part of the game as long as it is where it should be: high risk and high reward. Pre-nerf phantom and pre-nerf palp aces are examples of when it stops being high risk.

Problem with this is that without Palp being insurance it is to much risk. I played Palp during the paratanni and without that blanket it would not even be fun. Risk is way far gone.

Sabine, bombs, tlt, both top shadowcasters, biggs, bmst, miranda, ghost (more so after the Palp nerf), stress bot, etc. The list that can kill them is just a uphill battle that every match you play, you will be on the fence. Hate to say it, but they need a saving grace to get back to the top.

They were high risk before palp nerf. Dropping the defenders down a peg would have been enough.

Star Wars & pre-painted ships got my attention on X-Wing, the idea of slipping my opponent's firing arc and blasting him out of space without him having the chance to shoot me got me into the game. I love to fly a ship (any ship at all, bombers, shuttles, fast interceptors) in such a way that my opponent can't shoot me but I can shoot him. The lower the PS and the fewer repositioning abilities the ship I am flying has the greater the sense of achievement when I pull off a good dodge.

You should try Heragator. It's basically a giant interceptor constantly changing maneuvers to dodge arcs and play tricksy.

30 minutes ago, Strikesback said:

Sabine, bombs, tlt, both top shadowcasters, biggs, bmst, miranda, ghost (more so after the Palp nerf), stress bot, etc. The list that can kill them is just a uphill battle that every match you play, you will be on the fence. Hate to say it, but they need a saving grace to get back to the top.

This.

...but you're more than on the fence, I see it as your actually loosing your balance and starting to fall at the game start. All of the "flying negating" and "dice negating" abilities and modifications grew from a few outliers you ran into here and there to the common modifications.

This game isn't about surgical flying, gambling and dice anymore.

Oh, need to add an actual answer to your question Lobakai ...it's not wrong to want to arc dodge again, it's wrong to need arc dodge again.

I picked Imps when I first started this game because I wanted to fly squints. After almost 2 years of losses, I finally gave them up to be able to win games with the Defender. Moving past the Defender I'm looking at TIE/sf, TAP and TIE Adv. Pretty sure flying squints is an NPE/sure loss for me still.

6 hours ago, Frostweasel said:

I agree with you to a certain extent, however at least arc dodging rewards good judgment of manoeuvring and skilful play. Some of the PWT builds don't encourage this at all.

If by, "good judgement of manoeuvring and skilful play" you mean "play poorly and reposition into a good spot anyways with perfect information" then sure.

Arc dodging does not necessarily mean just playing ships with multiple repositioning options. Planning your approach so that you engage at range two and half your opponent's list doesn't get a shot is arc dodging and can be done with ships that can't reposition at all against ships with multiple repositioning options (it's hard, but it is doable). I've pulled that with a Jendon Lambda and the bombers he was supporting.

2 hours ago, Turbo Toker said:

If by, "good judgement of manoeuvring and skilful play" you mean "play poorly and reposition into a good spot anyways with perfect information" then sure.

This is a ridiculous statement. First off, if you play poorly, you're not going to get a chance to reposition because you're going to get blocked and loose your action most likely. Second off, the only arc dodge that can even see all the places they can reposition to is a high PS pilot, in which case you're already paying more points for that ability. Third off, like someone above said, if you use your action to reposition, you are not going to be able to shoot as well or evade as well any shots that do come your way. Arc dodgers at this point are very much a high risk, high skill required type of ship. And unfortunately with all the things right now that don't require good flying to cause damage, the risk isn't really worth it.

The risk may not really be worth it but it is still really good fun.

6 minutes ago, J Viz said:

The risk may not really be worth it but it is still really good fun.

Yeah it is still really fun!

4 hours ago, Turbo Toker said:

If by, "good judgement of manoeuvring and skilful play" you mean "play poorly and reposition into a good spot anyways with perfect information" then sure.

This is so much bull my friend. No one who arc dodges successfully does so by flying poorly, there is only so much you can do with a boost and barrel roll. If you're a good arc dodger then I can see how it could be frustrating to your opponent, but surely it is the aim of the game to outthink, trap or out position your opponent anyway? Most arc dodgers are PtL aces make themselves at least somewhat predictable due to a reliance on green manoeuvres.

I have 2 big complains about this game: the way turrets/360º primary attacks were designed from the start (because IRL fighters with frontal aimed guns are much better than those with turrets, which can't hit anything) AND how large ships can maneuver better than starfighters. Heck, those problems even usually come together. I would like if this game was much more about positioning than just flying in circles.

PS: also, there are no "medium size ships", leading to some monstrosities like the ARC and K-Wing (too big for the small base) and the U-Wing (too small for the large base).

51 minutes ago, Odanan said:

I have 2 big complains about this game: the way turrets/360º primary attacks were designed from the start (because IRL fighters with frontal aimed guns are much better than those with turrets, which can't hit anything) AND how large ships can maneuver better than starfighters. Heck, those problems even usually come together. I would like if this game was much more about positioning than just flying in circles.

PS: also, there are no "medium size ships", leading to some monstrosities like the ARC and K-Wing (too big for the small base) and the U-Wing (too small for the large base).

Flying in circles gets much better when you don't play in a 3x3 litterbox. In this week's Epic, I never so much as used a red maneuver, let alone a K turn.

I wonder if a "fix/nerf" for PTW is -1 dice to attack when out of front arc. Elegant; logical, no card changes necessary.

And I agree with the sentiment that medium bases needs to be a thing.