Hello,

It actually rings utterly true to my L5R and I love it!

Kakita Jo is a wonderful duelist, winner of many a duels and a proven prodigy schooled in the famed Kakita Academy (if it still exists). Isawa Jin is a powerful wielder of Earth kami, renowned Elemental Master but has never approached a katana closer than 3 feet. Both of them have an equal status (for argument sake) however one of them has a clear advantage over the other when it comes to dueling. Now, heat is rising, words are said and insults fly. Demand of retribution is made and the matter will be resolved with a duel, in this case a iaijutsu duel.

Isawa Jin is clearly the underdog and have more to prove, NOT in terms of righteousness but because of the form of the duel, and therefore must rely more on outside help (in this case, the kharmic justice); to acheive this, Isawa Jin gives everything he has (ie, a lot of honour, ie setting the dial to 5), hoping that the purity of his past actions and of his actual commitment will turn the tide.

Kakita Jo is the obvious favourite and must show restrain as to appear honourable (by being compassionate) yet he must also win. Kakita Jo understands that his opponent is not your average Jon and will react accordingly, pouring just enough in the duel as to defeat his worthy opponent in the most honourable way (ie, engaging his honour, ie, setting the dial to 2).

By pouring honour into the duel, duelists acknowledge the worthiness of their opponents, they deem the other one honourable enough (ie, giving one's opponent some honour). However, it also shows that one needed an edge to defeat said opponent, therefore they are not as perfecct as they could be (ie, losing some honour by turning the dial, to 2 or more technically).

It feels like the perfect continuation following an exchange of arguments; exactly like the duel between Mirumoto Satsu and Hida Yakamo (thank you Tonbo Karasu)

4 minutes ago, Mirumoto Kuroniten said:

Hello,

It actually rings utterly true to my L5R. Kakita Jo is a wonderful duelist, winner of many a duels and a proven prodigy schooled in the famed Kakita Academy (it is still exists). Isawa Jin is a powerful wielder of Earth kami, renowned Elemental Master but has never approached a katana closer than 3 feet. Both of them have an equal status (for argument sake) however one of them has a clear advantage over the other when it comes to dueling. Now, heat is rising, words are said and insults fly. Demand of retribution is made and the matter will be resolved with a duel, in this case a iaijutsu duel.

Isawa Jin is clearly the underdog and have more to prove, NOT in terms of righteousness but because of the form of the duel, and therefore must rely more on outside help (in this case, the kharmic justice); to acheive this, Isawa Jin gives everything he has (ie, a lot of honour, ie setting the dial to 5), hoping that the purity of his past actions and of his actual commitment will turn the tide.

Kakita Jo is the obvious favourite and must show restrain as to appear honourable (by being compassionate) yet he must also win. Kakita Jo understands that his opponent is not your average Jon and will react accordingly, pouring just enough in the duel as to defeat his worthy opponent in the most honourable way (ie, engaging his honour, ie, setting the dial to 2).

By pouring honour into the duel, duelists acknowledge the worthiness of their opponents, they deem the other one honourable enough (ie, giving one's opponent some honour). However, it also shows that one needed an edge to defeat said opponent, therefore they are not as perfecct as they could be (ie, losing some honour by turning the dial, to 2 or more technically).

It feels like the perfect continuation following an exchange of arguments; exactly like the duel between Mirumoto Satsu and Hida Yakamo (thank you Tonbo Karasu)

^ Sooo much this.

plus...
As I wrote in previous post, dial and honor loss/gain is about the duel itself, how it goes, will your duelist restrain from an overkill for example, or not.
Honor gain/loss as a result of the duel ( duel card itself) is another thing and people should try not to mistake those.

This is my latest post from this forum ;

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36 minutes ago, Shiba Jaimi said:

DUELING IS BROKEN! ... I kept losing to much honor dueling characters...and I would win, **** near, every duel in the games. DUELING IS BROKEN!

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Hahaha, you would win every duel, but you would lose honor?! That's exactly how it's suppose to work, quit bidding so high! *facepalm*

13 hours ago, Shiba Jaimi said:

This is my latest post from this forum ;

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Ok guys, just to beat a not-so-dead horse...

I just took a day and introduced the game...deep-dive gaming session...to three of my friends. I have known these people for over 15 years (I have lived with one of them), so in this group, we are all fearless with our opinions.

On the issue of dueling, I played a Scorpion Deck against a Military-Dragon. It was ugly. In-experience taken into account, these people were negotiating their decks pretty well. They quickly put strategies together, changed them on the fly and they were using a lot of deception. But, ultimately, in this match, dueling was the death of the dragon. Mirumoto Raitsugu was the duelist in question. Here he is:

My opponent did the thing that the effect of this duel ask for (win the duel, kill the loser if it is without fate), he placed 2 fate on him. He attached monks to him and a weapon. This guy was RIDICULOUS!! He would attack, win a challenge and my opponent would keep him standing. He would defend, my opponent moved him into battles. He was dueling EVERYONE! Now, I will not make you wait, Mirumoto won every duel, except 1. And the one exception, we tied. My opponent used this character to killed 5 to seven of my characters. And, he lost this game because of dishonor. As the Scorpion Clan player how much honor did I have? 16-19...I was close to honor running. At points I ran out of characters to dishonor, but it took three turns. Three turns... I dishonored the Dragon Clan, not because of excellent play, not because of the "luck of the draw", not because I was Scorpion Clan. My opponent, killed all those characters, won almost every battle this character was in and lost the war...completely. It was so bad, at the end, the player tried to Assassinate one of his own characters out of spite. He couldn't. Why? He didn't have enough honor (2 Honor left). This is how bad the dueling is broken. The math on the first post held.

I did not tell him anything other than how the dueling mechanics worked. I did not share my opinions with him. In the conversation we had after playing the game. He lamented;

"My character was bad ***. Every conflict he was in, standing at conflict resolution, he won. Even when that character was bowed at resolution, we tied the conflict. But the rules of "dueling" punishes the duelist for winning. I killed almost every character I dueled, but losing 2-3 honor per duel (* Note - No, he almost never selected "5" on his dial) in all those duels I won, lost me the game."

DUELING IS BROKEN! I do not say this as a challenge to anyone. I won a game against a player that won the majority of challenges, in general, because of dueling rules. As a matter of fact, even playing dueling decks myself, I have yet to see a deck, that fully relied on dueling (consistently used dueling as a vehicle to win conflicts) wins games regularly. As a person that has built decks that duel, I end up NOT dueling characters, because HONOR is a direct win/loss condition and I kept losing to much honor dueling characters...and I would win, **** near, every duel in the games. DUELING IS BROKEN!

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Sounds like Mirumoto was putting his own glory over the honor of his clan, and in killing so many of the other clan's warriors, he shamed his clan by making them look like people harboring a murderer.

1 hour ago, LuceLineGames said:

Hahaha, you would win every duel, but you would lose honor?! That's exactly how it's suppose to work, quit bidding so high! *facepalm*

- Mirumoto Raitsugu was the duelist in question. He is a duelist. He is supposed to duel people. And is duel effect is to the death (if you have no fate on the character). The owner of the character wants that effect, that is why he is playing with that card in the deck. And dueling is supposed to be an honorable pursuit, more honorable than other battlefield combat. He did his job. He was 5 force...challenging a force 3 character. He wants to win the duel, because he is a flippin' duelist. The player for Mirumoto bids 4. This bid ensures the force 3 character cannot win, even with a bid of 5. This is a duel to the death, Mirumoto does not want to lose a duel to the death. The force 3 character bids 3, in the hopes for a tie (thinking the higher skilled person may bid 1 to keep from losing honor). Both reveal. Mirumoto get a final score of "9", the other character gets a score of "6". Mirumoto wins the duel, kills the character...but has to give the death guy an honor? "*facepalm*" all you want, but that makes no sense, in an honorable duel, with both combatants wanting to live.

52 minutes ago, Deathseed said:

Sounds like Mirumoto was putting his own glory over the honor of his clan, and in killing so many of the other clans warriors, he shamed his clan by making them look like people harboring a murderer.

- Mirumoto Raitsugu was the duelist in question. He is a duelist. He is supposed to duel people. This is what he does for a living, and his duel is to the death. No one can change the text of the duel. THIS IS WHAT HE DOES! The duel is supposed to be HONORABLE. It is practically a component of the definition of the word DUEL, in this context. He challenged a worthy foe to a duel. He did not "Assassinate" any one. I did not sneak up and "back-stab" them. He didn't ambush anyone. He challenged a single character to honorable, one-on-one combat, to the death...in plain view of everyone, as an honorable duelist would. The mechanics of "dueling" rules says, in the middle of all this honorable behavior, if Mirumoto does what is required to win/stay alive/do his **** job, he has to constantly give honor away.

To both of you:

- Ok, maybe I am not being clear. Let's put it like this, if the environment was just right, Mirumoto would walk on to the battlefield, and through dueling, kill every enemy soldier, samurai, bushi, champion, kensai, monk, shugenja, courtier and tactician fielded by the enemy force everywhere. He could kill the entirety of enemy forces everywhere and without the dragon forces losing a single soldier, the Dragon Clan would lose the war. This has NEVER happened and could never happen. It is impossible for an enemy army to die (I mean, all of the enemy forces fielded everywhere, dying), to the last man, and those dead men WIN the war. It is impossible because of what all those words mean individually and collectively, in context. This is what you are advocating for, impossibility.

14 minutes ago, Shiba Jaimi said:

- Mirumoto Raitsugu was the duelist in question. He is a duelist. He is supposed to duel people. And is duel effect is to the death (if you have no fate on the character). The owner of the character wants that effect, that is why he is playing with that card in the deck. And dueling is supposed to be an honorable pursuit, more honorable than other battlefield combat. He did his job. He was 5 force...challenging a force 3 character. He wants to win the duel, because he is a flippin' duelist. The player for Mirumoto bids 4. This bid ensures the force 3 character cannot win, even with a bid of 5. This is a duel to the death, Mirumoto does not want to lose a duel to the death. The force 3 character bids 3, in the hopes for a tie (thinking the higher skilled person may bid 1 to keep from losing honor). Both reveal. Mirumoto get a final score of "9", the other character gets a score of "6". Mirumoto wins the duel, kills the character...but has to give the death guy an honor? "*facepalm*" all you want, but that makes no sense, in an honorable duel, with both combatants wanting to live.

- Mirumoto Raitsugu was the duelist in question. He is a duelist. He is supposed to duel people. This is what he does for a living, and his duel is to the death. No one can change the text of the duel. THIS IS WHAT HE DOES! The duel is supposed to be HONORABLE. It is practically a component of the definition of the word DUEL, in this context. He challenged a worthy foe to a duel. He did not "Assassinate" any one. I did not sneak up and "back-stab" them. He didn't ambush anyone. He challenged a single character to honorable, one-on-one combat, to the death...in plain view of everyone, as an honorable duelist would. The mechanics of "dueling" rules says, in the middle of all this honorable behavior, if Mirumoto does what is required to win/stay alive/do his **** job, he has to constantly give honor away.

To both of you:

- Ok, maybe I am not being clear. Let's put it like this, if the environment was just right, Mirumoto would walk on to the battlefield, and through dueling, kill every enemy soldier, samurai, bushi, champion, kensai, monk, shugenja, courtier and tactician fielded by the enemy force everywhere. He could kill the entirety of enemy forces everywhere and without the dragon forces losing a single soldier, the Dragon Clan would lose the war. This has NEVER happened and could never happen. It is impossible for an enemy army to die (I mean, all of the enemy forces fielded everywhere, dying), to the last man, and those dead men WIN the war. It is impossible because of what all those words mean individually and collectively, in context. This is what you are advocating for, impossibility.

Well, well. Looks like we have someone trying to insist his subjective interpretation of a thing is the only "correct" interpretation.

40 minutes ago, Shiba Jaimi said:

"*facepalm*" all you want, but that makes no sense, in an honorable duel, with both combatants wanting to live.

Raitsugu loses an honor because even though he won he was a little scummy about it. The dragon clan used a hostage and blackmailed the challengee, Raitsugu kneed him/her in the unmentionables or maybe started the duel a hair too early catching them off guard. Maybe he kicked dust in their eyes. This isn't up for debate, Raitsugu may have been an honorable duelist but he was not in this duel, we know because there was a slight bid difference between him and his opponent. You can keep hammering on about how duels are honorable, and it's absurd that the duelist who wins loses honor but until you tell your duelists to put the hidden shivs and poison away and bid lower than your opponent that's not true.

Quote

- Ok, maybe I am not being clear. Let's put it like this, if the environment was just right, Mirumoto would walk on to the battlefield, and through dueling, kill every enemy soldier, samurai, bushi, champion, kensai, monk, shugenja, courtier and tactician fielded by the enemy force everywhere. He could kill the entirety of enemy forces everywhere and without the dragon forces losing a single soldier, the Dragon Clan would lose the war. This has NEVER happened and could never happen. It is impossible for an enemy army to die (I mean, all of the enemy forces fielded everywhere, dying), to the last man, and those dead men WIN the war. It is impossible because of what all those words mean individually and collectively, in context. This is what you are advocating for, impossibility.

Except the great clans aren't in a state of total war and they aren't even autonomous, they all bow to the whims of the Emperor. If Raitsugu butchered his enemy's army without regard for honor you better believe the Dragon clan is going to be forced to exile him and return any gains as reparations.

It’s great that this game is incredibly story driven. It adds so much to the enjoyment when playing or discussing it.

As far as playing the game goes, the person using Mirumoto Raitsugu clearly didn’t understand how to use the dueling mechanic to further his chances of winning his game against the Scorpion. I’m not trying to be mean or insulting, it’s just that he dueled himself into an honor loss in a game where managing your honor properly is one of the most important keys to victory.

You have to manage all of your resources in L5R to give yourself the best chance of victory. This is especially true of honor since it’s a win/loss condition. One guy playing for the first time mismanaging his honor against the Scorpion is hardly proof the dueling system is broken.

It's called game balance. If there wasn't some potential penalty for guaranteeing yourself a victory every duel, it would be incredibly broken (IMO). Even in your example, the dragon player isn't just bidding to win, he's bidding to make it impossible to lose. Honor is the best resource to bid specifically because there's a win/ loss condition for it. This is a card game, not an rpg. At some point you have to accept that flavor needs to compromise with balance, otherwise you get a broken game.

2 minutes ago, GoblinGuide said:

Except the great clans aren't in a state of total war and they aren't even autonomous, they all bow to the whims of the Emperor. If Raitsugu butchered his enemy's army without regard for honor you better believe the Dragon clan is going to be forced to exile him and return any gains as reparations.

As I say in the example... i f the environment was just right (in a game, two people sit down), Mirumoto would walk on to the battlefield, and through the dueling rules, kill every enemy soldier, samurai, bushi, champion, kensai, monk, shugenja, courtier and tactician fielded by the enemy force everywhere. He could kill the entirety of enemy forces everywhere and without the dragon forces losing a single soldier, the Dragon Clan would lose the war. This has NEVER happened and could never happen .

But the reality is, if Mirumoto walked on to the battlefield and killed every single warrior, to the last man, by himself, in single combat, one after another, all done formally, in the presence of witnesses, he would become the most renowned warrior in the realm. Hida Kasada would tell that story to his small children as bedtime stories. Entire towns would stop everything as he passed and everyone would bow. Samurai from his clan would be HURLING their daughters at him, for marriage, in recognition of all the lives he saved...namely theirs. The Clan Champion for the Dragon would almost have to reward him for his skill in combat. There would be ceremonies everywhere he went, in his home land and probably other places. In every sake-house he walked into most of the geisha would fight over the honor of serving him, and jump into his bed at night for the honor of...not just being able to know that they had that intimate time with this great warrior, but for the chance to bare his children. Girls do this today with the high school quarterback for winning the homecoming game, poking holes in condoms and the like. Mirumoto's act of killing all those people, in that way, would be instant legend.

9 minutes ago, GoblinGuide said:

Raitsugu loses an honor because even though he won he was a little scummy about it. The dragon clan used a hostage and blackmailed the challengee, Raitsugu kneed him/her in the unmentionables...Maybe he kicked dust in their eyes.

As the Scorpion player, every dishonorable thing I do has a card. All of those cards have a cost. This is a duel, not an assassination. This is a duel, not an ambush. The reason Scorpion Clan get the down right deceitful actions is because the other clans would NOT do those things. Scorpion Clan is the only Clan with "poison". Scorpion Clan is the only Clan with "Blackmail". The Scorpion Clan does not get duels, because duels are the way HONORABLE warriors settle disputes, when they escalate long enough. The Dragon player did not do the dishonorable things you spoke of, it was a duel, none of the other cards were played. This is yet another reason why I say the dueling rules are broken.

Merriam-Webster defines a duel, as it applies to this situation, thus;

"a formal combat with weapons fought between two persons in the presence of witnesses"

Formal? If you are considering Mirumoto using duels to straight "slaughter" an ARMY, why make EACH individual duel formal? But here is the really important part, "in the presence of witnesses"... Why is that part of the definition? What is the importance of the witnesses? They represent the honorable component of the combat. Because they are gonna talk. The very nature of witnesses being present directly implies, "this is an honorable event", as witnesses at every honor event do. They are invited to attend, it cannot be a "duel" without them. They are PART of the duel, literally...by definition. But, you are right, a dishonorable person could poison a blade and challenge someone to a duel...but this is a deception that is still trying to acquire the appearance of "HONOR". Either way you slice it, duels are honorable. Mirumoto is an honorable duelist, acting honorably, doing his job, for his clan, challenging warriors to duels...and killing them. And the idea that "he is shady"...NO...HE IS A FLIPPIN' DUELIST.

On the other hand, you say, " If Raitsugu butchered his enemy's army without regard for honor..." I never described that. I said he challenged each one to single combat, in the presence of witnesses..."Assassinate" is a card...not used. "Ambush" is a card...not used..."Poison" is a card...not used. "Blackmail" is a card...not used. These are the the things you do if you are not concerned with honor. A duel is NONE of those things. If those things would be done, someone would play the card. But, if you are suggesting that all duels, everywhere...every time...are, by their very nature, dishonorable. Fine. Why do the scorpions not have it? If it is THAT dishonorable, all the time, regardless of who is fighting the duel...it would have to be a scorpion thing, because Scorpion is the clan that does the dishonorable in order to keep the realm safe. NONE of it makes any sense.

1 hour ago, GoblinGuide said:

maybe started the duel a hair too early catching them off guard

Ok, now we are into the meat. The point you raise with this little phrase, is accurate. There SHOULD be some randomness in the duel...I FULLY AGREE! And it can be the honor dial...but the "losing honor" part of the mechanism needs to change. Two differently colored dice in a closed bowl would probably be best. But there should be something, because someone could start early, someone could start late, someone could trip in the middle of their movement. Mistakes get made. This is not an issue of honor...it is randomness.

2 hours ago, Deathseed said:

Well, well. Looks like we have someone trying to insist his subjective interpretation of a thing is the only "correct" interpretation.

What exactly is subjective? I even used the dictionary, the objective authoritative source of what the words means, to describe what the duel is.

43 minutes ago, Zesu Shadaban said:

It's called game balance. If there wasn't some potential penalty for guaranteeing yourself a victory every duel, it would be incredibly broken (IMO). Even in your example, the dragon player isn't just bidding to win, he's bidding to make it impossible to lose. Honor is the best resource to bid specifically because there's a win/ loss condition for it. This is a card game, not an rpg. At some point you have to accept that flavor needs to compromise with balance, otherwise you get a broken game.

Ok, game balance. Considering FFG literally took two years and made up this stuff. I am saying, "The game is young, if there is a time to change it, it is now. The dueling part of the game is NOT balanced, but it punishes the victor." When a bushi does a "Route", there is no chance of the bushi "losing", in the action itself. He/she is a bushi with more military skill, send that other character home! When the courtier does an "Outwit", there is no chance of the courtier "losing" in the action. Same for shugenja, same for tacticians, same for cavalry....but duelist are supposed to be different? And the argument is "game balance". If the duelist actions require "balance", fine...where is the "balance" for the other actions that do not require an honor dial? FFG could have just made those duels flat actions. But they didn't, they put an extra thing in the game, and that thing is broken. And with a person that did not know what I was doing, I proved it on Saturday. I, playing a Scorpion Deck, won a game, because the honorable duelist won almost every battle, killed almost every warrior he faced and still lost the game. This should NOT be normal.

That said, if there is a game designer that says, "Yes, dueling is supposed to punish the winner of duel like this." I will stop talking about it. As a matter of fact, I would do a lot more.

When the bushi uses Rout, there is no chance of killing an opposing character. When a courtier uses Outwit, there is no chance of killing an opposing character. Both of those actions cost 1 fate and have specific requirements. Can you point to any other actions in this game that can kill as many characters as this one? It seems to me that your friend lost because he did not consider the consequences of his actions. I do agree that if changes need to be made, now would be the best time. I just don't think this is something that needs changing.

1 hour ago, Shiba Jaimi said:

And with a person that did not know what I was doing, I proved it on Saturday. I, playing a Scorpion Deck, won a game, because the honorable duelist won almost every battle, killed almost every warrior he faced and still lost the game. This should NOT be normal.

The only thing you have proven is you can win a game against a new player with the Scorpion by reducing their honor to zero.

I’ve played a few more than 1 game with the Dragon and have multiple games that include multiple duels with Raitsugu. I’ve won at least 80% of those duels and never lost a game with Dragon by reaching 0 honor.

I have even won duels and gained honor when it was my opponents first time dueling and they didn’t fully grasp the concept. None of my opponents have repeated that mistake to date.

2 minutes ago, Shiba Jaimi said:

Hida Kasada would tell that story to his small children as bedtime stories.

Yes he would. "Now listen children. The stupid Dragon challenged the entire army to a duel. The ashigaru looked at each other, shrugged their shoulders and ran him through with spears. The next Dragon challenged Yakamo to a duel and had his head replaced with a tetsubo. That wasn't very honourable of Yakamo but the silly Dragon shouldn't have challenged him if he wasn't willing to fight on Yakamo's terms. Finally the third Dragon challenged me to a duel. I let him have the first blow to be polite then I cut his head off with Chikara. That is where I got this scar, oh no, I mean this scar. Or was it this one? Now what is the lesson to learn here, children? When a Dragon challenges you to a duel to the death, kill him. Then make sure his family know what a disgrace he is for challenging a Defender of the Wall. Now get some sleep, kobo ichi-kai lessons are in the morning."

1 hour ago, Shiba Jaimi said:

The game is young, if there is a time to change it, it is now. The dueling part of the game is NOT balanced.

FFG has much more in store for dueling as we'll see when more cards are released. Unfortunately the core set and at least a couple cycles have already been designed and in play testing, so FFG will not be taking your concerns into consideration. They also do not read these forums, per their policy.

1 hour ago, Shiba Jaimi said:

On the other hand, you say, " If Raitsugu butchered his enemy's army without regard for honor..." I never described that.

Yes you did. As you said, Raitsugu lost 2-3 honor each time, which means he bid higher than his opponent each time, which means he did some real shady ****. This entire thread is you being upset that when you bid higher in a duel you lose honor because you think that means that everything was above board; that is not the case and the developers have said as much. They literally said in one of the earlier FFGLives that bidding higher than your opponent in a duel represents anything from bending the rules of the duel, to outright blackmail or poisoning their opponent. Raitsugu is only as honorable as you bid, and if you're bidding high he's being scummy.

59 minutes ago, DarkHorse said:

The stupid Dragon challenged the entire army to a duel. The ashigaru looked at each other, shrugged their shoulders and ran him through with spears.

You completely missed the point, re-read the post.

12 minutes ago, LuceLineGames said:

FFG has much more in store for dueling

What difference would it make if the structure that governs the dueling rules are broken... Here is the analogy; "Put pearls into a garbage crushing machine, you'll get garbage pearls on the other side."

14 minutes ago, LuceLineGames said:

Unfortunately the core set and at least a couple cycles have already been designed and in play testing, so FFG will not be taking your concerns into consideration.

I am talking about something I am "concerned" with. The void ring...I am "concerned" about that. The Imperial Favor...I am "concerned" about that. Dueling is flat broken and diminishes their product and the LCG on the whole. But hey...whatever.

1 hour ago, Starbane said:

The only thing you proved is you can win a game against a new player with the Scorpion by reducing their honor to zero.

The person I was playing was one of the best L5R players in its previous iterations. Yes, he was new to this iteration. But he was a L5R player for generations of the game. He agrees it is broken.

1 hour ago, Starbane said:

I have even won duels and gained honor when it was my opponents first time dueling and they didn’t fully grasp the concept. None of my opponents have repeated that mistake to date.

I am not talking about edge cases. I am talking about the rule set, as it works in every duel, in every game...not all of YOUR games.

16 minutes ago, LuceLineGames said:

They also do not read these forums, per their policy.

I completely believe you. Seriously, I do. It would be the type of move a "cash-grabby" company would do. Why should they pay attention to what their customers are saying about their product on the very forum that bares their name. I am not arguing with you. I think you are right and you would not lie...it seems right for what I see.

And to the implication of your statement on the whole, "don't bother stating anything you see as wrong with the game, your perspective is not important enough for anyone to look at, let alone do anything about, even if you are right." Yeah, ok. Sure. You are right. I am no one important talking about a card game that ultimately means nothing, in the grand scheme of things. Yeah. And I still hold you and your opinion with a certain seriousness and respect.

3 hours ago, Starbane said:

It’s great that this game is incredibly story driven. It adds so much to the enjoyment when playing or discussing it.

I agree. I have loved this game for years. I was passionate over this game way back when...right up until AEG broke it. When they broken they lost a lot of money over it, because passionate people like you and I stopped buying it. And that is the reason I argue so passionately over this point. I want to play this game, but FFG was sloppy. And it is apparent looking at certain parts of the game. I do not want to "goof off" with L5R. I want to fall in love with the story and the game.

3 hours ago, Starbane said:

As far as playing the game goes, the person using Mirumoto Raitsugu clearly didn’t understand how to use the dueling mechanic to further his chances of winning his game against the Scorpion.

The duel on the card is straight forward. The loser discards a fate off that character, if there is no fate on the loser, discard it. And he discarded almost every character he dueled...gather multiple rings. He was triggering ring effects like he was schtuping his nymphomaniac girlfriend...what else was he supposed to be doing with it?

3 hours ago, Starbane said:

You have to manage all of your resources in L5R to give yourself the best chance of victory. This is especially true of honor since it’s a win/loss condition. One guy playing for the first time mismanaging his honor against the Scorpion is hardly proof the dueling system is broken.

The person triggering the duel wants the duel effect, and in this case it is an excellent duel effect. In this case, probably the best duel effect in the game, if reducing enemy character count is a GOOD thing. And it is. So, what are you getting at?

Maybe the moral of this story is two-fold:

1) If you want to duel a lot, be prepared to either lose duels, or lose honor. You can't gain honor by winning duels.

2) No matter what your brain tells you, you can't bend the design intent of the game: bidding high in a duel represents less honorable tactics, and bidding low means more pure dueling. This is *defined* already, and not subject to speculation or opinion. So if a duelist duels a lot, and bids higher, he'll lose honor for his disreputable dueling tactics. He's abusing a system of resolving disputes, tainting a time-honored tradition.

In your Raitsugu example, consider a modern-day comparison. Let's say I have a business, and want the business to succeed. My chosen method of doing so is by literally suing and buying out all my competition. High honor bids here represent throwing lots of money into litigation or buy-outs until I have a monopoly. I may be knocking down the competition, but people will see my attempt at a monopoly to be unappealing because I am succeeding via wealth instead of by offering the best product/service. Raitsugu is destroying his competition by challenging people to duels again and again, people maybe he shouldn't be challenging to duels. It's dishonorable to see him exploit the tradition of dueling, and in that game the Dragon Clan lost respect and standing in the hierarchy of the empire because of Raitsugu's actions.

@Shiba Jaimi

I,m not parsing all those quotes so I’ll try to answer in order.

The person your were playing may have been one of the best at old L5R, but it seems he still has quite a bit to learn about new L5R. The fact that he dueled himself into an honor loss in his first game doesn’t lend much credence to his belief dueling is broken.

Those are edge cases, but indicative of mistakes rookie duelists make. Much like dueling yourself to an honor loss, another edge case.

My first deck was a freebie lion starter I was given when AEG was touring the country demoing the game in its first year. It’s a shame AEG broke the old game. Perhaps you should take a step back, clear your mind, and give dueling another chance before you declare it broken. It’s different than the old mechanic and I feel superior.

The duel as printed on the card is quite clear. However, that doesn’t mean he used it wisely, in fact I would say the results clearly indicate he used it unwisely. No matter how clear the text, judicious use of the effect and proper honor bidding is going to have a learning curve.

Reducing enemy character count at advantageous moments is a great thing. Reducing enemy character count at the cost of an honor loss, not so much.

This new version of L5R is about managing all of your resources not just some of them. When dueling you need to use discretion selecting your opponents. I almost always bid 1 or 2 honor and still win my duels. Assassination costs 3 honor to remove a character that costs 2 or less and must be used with great caution. You can only afford to lose so much honor to Assassinations. Raitsugu allows you greater flexibility in target selection, but requires just as much caution in its use. If you are wise in selecting targets you may be able remove 2 or 3 for the cost of a single Assassination. If that’s not value I don’t know what is.

1 hour ago, Shiba Jaimi said:

You completely missed the point, re-read the post.

I got your point, I do not agree. I bet Kisada wouldn't either (particularly if he has not lost a challenge yet this turn and it is your first Action of the Conflict, he would just straight up cancel the duel Action). So if the duel did go ahead, you would need to bid 5 and Kisada bids 1. No, that would be 8-8 draw so you would need to equip Fine Katana or Ancestral Daisho first. Then you would have to bid 5, Kisada would bid 3, it would still be a draw and you would lose 2 honour. Kisada could bid 4 and guarantee he wins that Duel, risking losing up to 3 honour (assuming you anticipate the 4 bid and bid 1 just to draw the Honour) or Kisada could have a Jade Testubo equipped, bid 1 and again be guaranteed to win that duel. If you equipped 2 Fine Katana first and then challenged naked Kisada, who ever bids higher wins the duel so now it is "I know that you know game". If I know you really, really, really want to remove 1 fate from Kisada then I bet you are going to bid 5. I could bid 5 as well, guaranteeing that Kisada wins or draws but I could also bid 1, assuming you bid 5 and trying to draw out 4 Honour from you. If you are going duel frenzy, forcing you to hemorrhaging Honour isn't a bad strategy even if I lost my champion in the duel. Lose a champion, win the game = good trade. So knowing that if I bid 5, I cannot lose unless you have Contingency Plan (do I have a Contingency Plan in my hand as insurance against this?), can I afford to lose 4-5 Honour if my guess is bad and you bid 1 to draw the Honour off me? If I can afford this, then I might just do it. If I cannot afford this, do I bid 1 to draw your Honour or even better anticipate your bid 1 trying to take my Honour? Do I bid 2, trying to beat your potential 1 bid? That is the most cost effective bid. Of course if Kisada has Reprieve attached or some Fate, I would probably just bid 1 knowing that I only have 1 Fate (or Reprieve) at risk where as you are risking up to 4 Honour to take that Fate. So you probably lose 4 Honour, let's say Kisada dies for that bid leaving the Vengeful Berzerker with his now 8 Military with a Watch Commander equipped. I am winning the Conflict, 7-8. You want to play a Tattooed Wanderer into the Conflict? Lose 1 Honour for Watch Commander. I use my Stronghold Action, 9-10. You play Ancestral Daisho on the Tattooed Wanderer. Lose 1 Honour, 11-10. I pass, you pass. You go home bowed. I play a Levy or three knowing you do not have any Fate left. You pay me 1-3 Honour. So for attacking Kisada you lose 7-9 Honour, I lost Kisada, you win a ring but do not break a Province. How many Honour did you start the turn with? Probably not much as the Crab have been pressuring your Honour all game. Did you just lose the game because you tried to duel Kisada? The Great Bear may be at home nursing a few cuts but he will wrap his wounds in Dragon banners.

Or before the end of the Conflict, I could play Duelist Training on the Vengeful Berserker and challenge Raitsugu to a duel, hoping to draw out even more Honour from my opponent, trying to make them lose either 4 cards or 4 Honour. Have a province break and take 11-13 Honour off you (9-11 I gain) in 1 turn? I will pay that price. Heck, I may have just hit an Honour victory if you haven't Dishonoured yourself. If not I bet I am very, very close.

So please, tell me how I missed the point.

All right, now that I am at a real computer, let's clear up some potential misconceptions that seem to have cropped up.

1. FFG never reads the forums. It would be more accurate to say that FFG does not directly interact with players in these forums. They clearly are keeping an eye on them, as evidenced by the recent flame thread that was locked by an FFG moderator. That said, the official welcome from FFG for the forums (emphasis mine) is:

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Welcome, samurai!

Here, you can discuss all aspects of the Legend of the Five Rings LCG and the world of Rokugan! Just remember to keep your interactions with others kind and civil.

This was never intended as a place to interact with FFG, it is specifically here for us, the players, to discuss the game. Like most companies, FFG has established channels of communication. Other companies may decide to include their forums as one of those channels, FFG has not, there's nothing right or wrong with that decision. They respond on social media (Facebook and Twitter at the very least) and they respond through customer service and the rules query form at https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/contact/rules/ (which, if you're passionate about an issue with the rules, is the best way to air your concerns directly with the design team).

2. Honor bids during duels represent your duelist's honor . Is your card the one bidding on the dial? No, it's you, his commander (the role you thematically assume while playing the game). Is it the duelist who loses honor if he/she bids higher than the opponent? No, it's your entire army, your clan that is losing honor. As the "leader" of your army, you are responsible for the decisions made, including how to manage your resources, such as honor, cards, abilities, and fate.

3. Winning a duel requires honor loss . This is only true if you cannot possibly win the duel without bidding higher than your opponent. There is a subtle but important difference between winning and winning at all costs. For example:

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He was 5 force...challenging a force 3 character. He wants to win the duel, because he is a flippin' duelist. The player for Mirumoto bids 4. This bid ensures the force 3 character cannot win, even with a bid of 5. This is a duel to the death, Mirumoto does not want to lose a duel to the death.

This is "winning at all costs". As already discussed, the bid to "win at all costs" thematically is not necessarily made by Mirumoto, it is made by his leader. The leader has decided Mirumoto must win at all costs, and thus risks the honor of the clan to do so. You can interpret this however you want for flavor...maybe Mirumoto isn't even aware of what is being done to tilt the duel to his advantage. Maybe he was commanded to do so. How it happens doesn't matter though, because the intent here is that the win must be had at any cost. It just so happens that, in the case of Mirumoto's duel, the cost is honor (if it had been the Duelist Training ability, the cost could have been cards from his hand, instead).

4. There's no balance for actions not requiring an honor dial bid . Cards like Rout, Outwit, and Assassination all have costs. Outwit and Rout both cost a fate to play, in addition to their requirements (controlling a participating Bushi for Rout, controlling a participating courtier for Outwit). These only send characters home, they don't even bow the target character. Assassination outright costs 3 honor to play, and is limited to 2-cost or lower characters. More importantly, there is an inherent limit to these cards - you can only have 3 copies in your entire deck. Certainly not enough of any one card to affect 5 to 7 opponent characters. Plus each copy counts against your deck limit.

5. An ability that doesn't work the way you expect is broken . Please consider how you weaken your own argument by making this claim. It is perfectly acceptable to disagree with how a particular mechanic is implemented. As has been stated, FFG has spent a couple years designing this game. There has been numerous playtest games to test the design and balance. Are some things not working as intended? Perhaps. But FFG makes it pretty clear that they intend you to lose honor if you are repeatedly bidding higher than your opponent in duels. It's how the mechanic is designed to work. Feel free to ask them yourself (go ahead and use the link I provided above for Rules Questions). But to state that this makes the mechanic broken is simply unfounded.

8 hours ago, Shiba Jaimi said:

As I say in the example... i f the environment was just right (in a game, two people sit down), Mirumoto would walk on to the battlefield, and through the dueling rules, kill every enemy soldier, samurai, bushi, champion, kensai, monk, shugenja, courtier and tactician fielded by the enemy force everywhere. He could kill the entirety of enemy forces everywhere and without the dragon forces losing a single soldier, the Dragon Clan would lose the war. This has NEVER happened and could never happen .

But the reality is, if Mirumoto walked on to the battlefield and killed every single warrior, to the last man, by himself, in single combat, one after another, all done formally, in the presence of witnesses, he would become the most renowned warrior in the realm. Hida Kasada would tell that story to his small children as bedtime stories. Entire towns would stop everything as he passed and everyone would bow. Samurai from his clan would be HURLING their daughters at him, for marriage, in recognition of all the lives he saved...namely theirs. The Clan Champion for the Dragon would almost have to reward him for his skill in combat. There would be ceremonies everywhere he went, in his home land and probably other places. In every sake-house he walked into most of the geisha would fight over the honor of serving him, and jump into his bed at night for the honor of...not just being able to know that they had that intimate time with this great warrior, but for the chance to bare his children. Girls do this today with the high school quarterback for winning the homecoming game, poking holes in condoms and the like. Mirumoto's act of killing all those people, in that way, would be instant legend.

As the Scorpion player, every dishonorable thing I do has a card. All of those cards have a cost. This is a duel, not an assassination. This is a duel, not an ambush. The reason Scorpion Clan get the down right deceitful actions is because the other clans would NOT do those things. Scorpion Clan is the only Clan with "poison". Scorpion Clan is the only Clan with "Blackmail". The Scorpion Clan does not get duels, because duels are the way HONORABLE warriors settle disputes, when they escalate long enough. The Dragon player did not do the dishonorable things you spoke of, it was a duel, none of the other cards were played. This is yet another reason why I say the dueling rules are broken.

Merriam-Webster defines a duel, as it applies to this situation, thus;

"a formal combat with weapons fought between two persons in the presence of witnesses"

Formal? If you are considering Mirumoto using duels to straight "slaughter" an ARMY, why make EACH individual duel formal? But here is the really important part, "in the presence of witnesses"... Why is that part of the definition? What is the importance of the witnesses? They represent the honorable component of the combat. Because they are gonna talk. The very nature of witnesses being present directly implies, "this is an honorable event", as witnesses at every honor event do. They are invited to attend, it cannot be a "duel" without them. They are PART of the duel, literally...by definition. But, you are right, a dishonorable person could poison a blade and challenge someone to a duel...but this is a deception that is still trying to acquire the appearance of "HONOR". Either way you slice it, duels are honorable. Mirumoto is an honorable duelist, acting honorably, doing his job, for his clan, challenging warriors to duels...and killing them. And the idea that "he is shady"...NO...HE IS A FLIPPIN' DUELIST.

On the other hand, you say, " If Raitsugu butchered his enemy's army without regard for honor..." I never described that. I said he challenged each one to single combat, in the presence of witnesses..."Assassinate" is a card...not used. "Ambush" is a card...not used..."Poison" is a card...not used. "Blackmail" is a card...not used. These are the the things you do if you are not concerned with honor. A duel is NONE of those things. If those things would be done, someone would play the card. But, if you are suggesting that all duels, everywhere...every time...are, by their very nature, dishonorable. Fine. Why do the scorpions not have it? If it is THAT dishonorable, all the time, regardless of who is fighting the duel...it would have to be a scorpion thing, because Scorpion is the clan that does the dishonorable in order to keep the realm safe. NONE of it makes any sense.

Ok, now we are into the meat. The point you raise with this little phrase, is accurate. There SHOULD be some randomness in the duel...I FULLY AGREE! And it can be the honor dial...but the "losing honor" part of the mechanism needs to change. Two differently colored dice in a closed bowl would probably be best. But there should be something, because someone could start early, someone could start late, someone could trip in the middle of their movement. Mistakes get made. This is not an issue of honor...it is randomness.

What exactly is subjective? I even used the dictionary, the objective authoritative source of what the words means, to describe what the duel is.

You seem to demonstrate a poor grasp of the dynamics of honor and dueling as they apply to Japanese feudal culture.

Honor is a highly subjective notion (even if it's one the samurai tried hard to codify). Interactions between samurai, their clans, families, servants, enemies, rivals, teachers etc. were filled with subtlety. Especially on matters of honor. No less, (nay, more so) where duels were concerned.

My narrative interpretation of the situation you're grousing about seems to me more valid than your seemingly highly westernized and narrow concept of the idea as it relates to this setting and dueling.

Dueling was in my top three most loved things about 'Old5R', despite how often it was either crappy or overpowered (same goes even more so for one of my other favorites: Enlightenment).

That said: The foundation of dueling in this game is fine, and perfectly thematic. You're looking at it backwards.

So, a skilled duelist won the battles but lost the war...against Scorpion. The Scorpion managed to make themselves look more respectable than their opponent and / or shame them enough to gain great advantage over them? That sounds about right, actually.