17 hours ago, Jedi samurai said:

Remember, something as simple as "duelist's win ties" would be a rulebook effect. I assume every clan will have duelists and/or be able to be competitive in dueling (one of the biggest issues with the CCG), but I'm also sure Dragon and Crane will 1) Have more personalities with duelist and 2) Have more unique conflict cards that interact with duels.

It is surely not going to happen, look at the Doomed Shugenja preview for example, you can see there clarly how traits look that have no rulebook meachanic, the ones in bold, and then the one that does come with a game mechanic, in that case Limited. And well the duelist trait on other previewed cards is just as useless as Cavalry is now. So, the only hope is that there are conflict cards that enhance duelists.

5 hours ago, Katsutoshi said:

"okay so if I want to be sure to win this duel, I will dial high, and so I will give honor to my opponent" -> which is totally wtf in L5R.

But in L5R, it is not honorable to honor dial higher than your opponent. The dial part is in addition to personal skill of the duelists. In pure honorable setting, high skill would always win. But if your bidding is not as honorable (low) as your opponent's, lose some face.

It feels a bit weird initially but if Kakita Muchochi is not so confident in winning his duel, he may risk some questionable... movements.

And giving your opponent some honor in exchange of potentially some strong effect, like killing the loser for example, seems ok to me.

5 hours ago, Katsutoshi said:

When you say that the dialing represents your conduct and not your skills, then you're obviously misportraying it. Because it would mean that the honorable duellists would always lose their duels against the dishonorable guys. Because the dishonorable guys would dial high, and the honorable duellists (eventhough they are far better) would not ? That does not make sense at all.

"Honorable" duelists can also choose not to pull back their strikes in a non-lethal/first-blood duel, thereby drawing more blood than is necessary or, in certain cases, delivering a mortal blow. The Bayushi are infamous for this.

In this case, it's not "I give my opponent 4 honor," but rather, "I lose 4 honor for a major breach of dueling etiquette, and the onlookers give my opponent 4 honor for enduring it."

44 minutes ago, Wintersong said:

But in L5R, it is not honorable to honor dial higher than your opponent. The dial part is in addition to personal skill of the duelists. In pure honorable setting, high skill would always win. But if your bidding is not as honorable (low) as your opponent's, lose some face.

It feels a bit weird initially but if Kakita Muchochi is not so confident in winning his duel, he may risk some questionable... movements.

And giving your opponent some honor in exchange of potentially some strong effect, like killing the loser for example, seems ok to me.

I guess we have to see the effects of a duel to fully/properly judge this.

I think using the dial sounds clever. Definitely more mind game then any old dueling mechanic was. Also it might enable competitive dueling between clans making it more of a high risk high reward strategy instead of the Crane and Dragon got this and the rest says strike the moment a duel is announced.

2 minutes ago, Yandia said:

I think using the dial sounds clever. Definitely more mind game then any old dueling mechanic was. Also it might enable competitive dueling between clans making it more of a high risk high reward strategy instead of the Crane and Dragon got this and the rest says strike the moment a duel is announced.

Dueling Lion Tactician deck rarely was "instant strike".

6 minutes ago, kempy said:

Dueling Lion Tactician deck rarely was "instant strike".

There are honerable exceptions.

After having slept a night about this, I think the important change regarding the duel mechanic is that with now honour always being part of duals and thus a directly connection to a victory condition (or two, if you want to cound dishonour separately) people will probably play that fastly rather safe, so we will probably see many duels that turn out with both parties taking the minimal value, and only risking something when the stakes are high, like an important piece on the board gets threatened that could otherwise cost the victory.

So, I guess players facing duel decks will continue to hate that, since it forces a decision on them that most players don't like to make. So, yes it might feel weird when I go to lose more duels in the future as Crane player, but people will eventually discover that this makes it just easier for the crane to win the overall game, so they will probably let me win duals instead of giving me honour and so everything will feel like always.

With regards to the duel mechanic, I can see a viable strategy with a dishonor deck issuing duels and 'throwing' them by bidding low and force your opponent in to a high bid just to reduce their honor. haha

The same could be said about honor decks trying to throw the duel and forcing their opponents in to a high bid in order to gain that honor as well.

Don't really know if this is a viable strategy or not, but it was something I was thinking about.

What I don't like about the examples a lot of people are giving in this topic, is that they are mainly exceptions !

In Rokugan, the rule is that the winner of a normaly conducted duel (which are the vast majority), wins some honor, and the loser loses some honor. PERIOD. That is the rule, the normal duel. You are all giving us exceptions as examples.

So once we stated the normal state of dueling in Rokugan, we can only agree that the LCG rules here come a little bit awkward, because we can't fall back on our feet and have the winner both win the duel and honor, and the loser both losing the duel and losing honor.

13 minutes ago, Katsutoshi said:

What I don't like about the examples a lot of people are giving in this topic, is that they are mainly exceptions !

In Rokugan, the rule is that the winner of a normaly conducted duel (which are the vast majority), wins some honor, and the loser loses some honor. PERIOD. That is the rule, the normal duel. You are all giving us exceptions as examples.

So once we stated the normal state of dueling in Rokugan, we can only agree that the LCG rules here come a little bit awkward, because we can't fall back on our feet and have the winner both win the duel and honor, and the loser both losing the duel and losing honor.

Well, look at the old fictions we had, like Jimen and Noritoshe at the Emerald Championship, the dishonourable person clearly had won there. So, we already had the precedences for those cases already. And well if you look at samurai drama in general, then you will find that often doing the right thing or honourable thing is dooming the samurai to fail. Sure, like I said, it will feel differently from what I used to, but it is actually very much in line with how the genre usually works.

1 hour ago, Katsutoshi said:

What I don't like about the examples a lot of people are giving in this topic, is that they are mainly exceptions !

In Rokugan, the rule is that the winner of a normaly conducted duel (which are the vast majority), wins some honor, and the loser loses some honor. PERIOD. That is the rule, the normal duel. You are all giving us exceptions as examples.

So once we stated the normal state of dueling in Rokugan, we can only agree that the LCG rules here come a little bit awkward, because we can't fall back on our feet and have the winner both win the duel and honor, and the loser both losing the duel and losing honor.

You could still win both by tricking your opponent to believe he has a chance to win by bidding high then play some specific conflict card to boost your character and win regardless.

Even tho we know the base rule for dueling, we don't know the cards/effects that will surround it.

2 hours ago, Sparks Duh said:

With regards to the duel mechanic, I can see a viable strategy with a dishonor deck issuing duels and 'throwing' them by bidding low and force your opponent in to a high bid just to reduce their honor. haha

The same could be said about honor decks trying to throw the duel and forcing their opponents in to a high bid in order to gain that honor as well.

Don't really know if this is a viable strategy or not, but it was something I was thinking about.

This crossed my mind too! And I think when we start to play they game, they will start to feel the pressure of balancing how much honor they have vs. how important the duel effect is. I also like the aspect, that if a scorpion DH deck issues a duel to someone near enough to being dishonored, they are going to be SUPER careful in the duel, and it pretty much gives the DH deck free reign to abuse their opponents' precarious situation! This is also great flavour!

It's hard to see now, but I fully expect that once we get stuck into the game, it will be far more nuanced than it appears to people now. There is going to be a huge amount of bluffing in duels (and in the card draw mechanic) and I can see this leading to a lot of memorable moments during the game, with lots of hands being thrown into the air in both despair and delight!

I'd have the same inkling as you in seeing this as a strategy of the game!

40 minutes ago, MrMenthe said:

Even tho we know the base rule for dueling, we don't know the cards/effects that will surround it.

I think this is a really important point! I'm sure there must be some dueling support that affects the honor aspect of the duels somewhat.

4 hours ago, Drudenfusz said:

Well, look at the old fictions we had, like Jimen and Noritoshe at the Emerald Championship, the dishonourable person clearly had won there. So, we already had the precedences for those cases already. And well if you look at samurai drama in general, then you will find that often doing the right thing or honourable thing is dooming the samurai to fail. Sure, like I said, it will feel differently from what I used to, but it is actually very much in line with how the genre usually works.

Re-read me, it has nothing to do with the samurai being honorable or not : the winner gains some honor during the process of winning, and the loser loses some. That's the general rule in Rokugan again...

You can pitch me as many exceptions as you want, I love them, I love exceptions, I love the twists we can find in L5R, but they still are exceptions. Of course the story focuses on exceptions... they make far better stories than the normal things... But that shouldn't make us forget what the norm is.

CCG/LCG is not always the same as RPG. You did not win honor as winner in all kind of duels of the CCG. In the LCG, assuming you win, in 1 out of 3 cases, you will lose honor by winning. Other case means no honor gain/lose and the last one has you gaining some honor.

Also, who says the winner doesn't gain honor from winning their duels? We haven't seen the cards that create duels yet. Maybe they have a "winner gains X honor" clause in them. In fact, I would be extremely surprised if we didn't see that. Also also, this is a reboot. They can change as much as they wish. Maybe that isn't the standard for duels anymore. Maybe now duels are just the way disputes are settled, and winning them doesn't automatically make you honorable.

30 minutes ago, fyrm said:

Also, who says the winner doesn't gain honor from winning their duels? We haven't seen the cards that create duels yet. Maybe they have a "winner gains X honor" clause in them. In fact, I would be extremely surprised if we didn't see that. Also also, this is a reboot. They can change as much as they wish. Maybe that isn't the standard for duels anymore. Maybe now duels are just the way disputes are settled, and winning them doesn't automatically make you honorable.

I somehow doubt that, since Crane start already with 11 honour and win already at 25, that means one has to make only 14 honour to win, and so I think we will not see to many effects that grand honour that easily. But more important I guess most less honourable decks simply cannot afford to bet high on a duel since they could lose the game because of the dishonour it would bring them, thus on a meta level duels would still be about honour, not about honour gain but about proving already established honour. And that is actually like it is in the roleplaying game, where winning duals usually offers only glory, but you can lose honour if you try to go for an honour roll.

Keep in mind that the designers expect the game to last 3-6 turns only - so some honour-granting effects must be in there to get you from 11 to 25 so fast.

8 minutes ago, Myrion said:

Keep in mind that the designers expect the game to last 3-6 turns only - so some honour-granting effects must be in there to get you from 11 to 25 so fast.

Sure, but with the information we already have it seems like one could get to 25 within two turns if the opponents always takes twice maximum cards and you minimum and if I do that with one duel and also manage to break a province by using the air ring I would already at 25, not to speak of that my opponent would be below 0 and thus has lost the game very fast too. Also, I guess the mechanic that we can honour peeps probably means when they leave the game I will also get honour. And then you realy think that duels in themself will make that even faster?

6 minutes ago, Drudenfusz said:

one could get to 25 within two turns if the opponents always takes twice maximum cards and you minimum and if I do that with one duel and also manage to break a province by using the air ring I would already at 25,

Why go twice to draw 5 cards? Not enough fate to play everything plus dinasty. But surely he would have more hand resources to deal with your characters. That said, I would expect the opponent to play smart and not give you the game for free. When you play against Crane, the chance of them trying to win by honor will not be small so...

I could see a type of Crane deck that goes political/military with just enough honor building stuff to play fast and loose with the dial.

On 4/23/2017 at 1:02 AM, Katsutoshi said:

In Rokugan, the rule is that the winner of a normaly conducted duel (which are the vast majority), wins some honor, and the loser loses some honor. PERIOD. That is the rule, the normal duel. You are all giving us exceptions as examples.

I don't think this is true anywhere outside of the CCG. IIRC the RPG rules correctly, winning a duel gained you no honor but might gain you some glory depending on your opponent. This makes sense to me.

Really, the situation in the CCG was kind of perverse if you think of it, as more often than not it was a 10C Double Chi Duelist personality defeating some 1C nobody. Why would that impress anybody?

4 minutes ago, Yoritomo Reiu said:

I don't think this is true anywhere outside of the CCG. IIRC the RPG rules correctly, winning a duel gained you no honor but might gain you some glory depending on your opponent. This makes sense to me.

Really, the situation in the CCG was kind of perverse if you think of it, as more often than not it was a 10C Double Chi Duelist personality defeating some 1C nobody. Why would that impress anybody?

It is true everywhere outside of the CCG. You win a normal duel, you gain honor and glory (depending on your opponent's own glory). You lose, you don't necessarly lose glory (you might even win some), but you do lose honor.

It's not because it didn't make sense before, during the old times, that we should accept anything new as making sense. I didn't like how duels worked in the CCG time, but I'm still questioning the logic and the coherence behind the new system.

22 minutes ago, Katsutoshi said:

It is true everywhere outside of the CCG. You win a normal duel, you gain honor and glory (depending on your opponent's own glory). You lose, you don't necessarly lose glory (you might even win some), but you do lose honor.

It's not because it didn't make sense before, during the old times, that we should accept anything new as making sense. I didn't like how duels worked in the CCG time, but I'm still questioning the logic and the coherence behind the new system.

Which edition of the RPG are you looking at, which section? In a cursory glance over all parts related to Iaijutsu and Honor gains in the L5R 4e RPG, there is nothing that says you gain Honor by winning a Iaijutsu duel nor losing Honor by losing the duel. The only thing related to it is Glory:

Quote

Defeat: Officer who loses a battle / duelist who loses a duel (loses opponent's Glory)
Duels: Winning a fair duel gains Glory points equal to 1/3 opponent's Status/Glory

So, as far as I can see, you are incorrect.

26 minutes ago, Katsutoshi said:

It is true everywhere outside of the CCG. You win a normal duel, you gain honor and glory (depending on your opponent's own glory). You lose, you don't necessarly lose glory (you might even win some), but you do lose honor.

No, dueling does not inherently give your honor in the RPG. Winning a fair duel gives Glory points equal to 1/3 the targets Status/Glory and defeat makes you lose glory.

The honor gains from duels tended to come from a combination of "Protecting your clan/family/lord's interest despite great risk to yourself" (gain honor because it is a duel to the death) and "Facing a superior foe in the name of your family." There was also a factor which involved duels preventing honor loss from "Enduring an insult to your ancestors" and "Enduring an insult to your family or clan."

Heck, I participated in an event during WC4 that ended with both duelists losing honor for disloyalty because it was an illegal duel.