For those who haven't seen, from what we know, dueling will work like this:

The players will use the honor dial to select what number they will add to their military or political value (the effect that created the duel will state which to use). After revealing their selection each play will add their selected value to the appropriate stat and the player who selected the higher number will give honor equal to the difference to the player who selected the lower number. The character with the superior value wins the duel (there could be conflict cards that could be played at this point) and the affects of losing will be given at the source of the duel.

I assume you use a characters modified (by glory) stat and not their base stat, meaning dishonoring an opponent before a duel could give you a big advantage.

1) What does everyone think about the new dueling rules?

2) We know Duelist is a trait - what "rule book effect" or type of action do we think will interact with that keyword? Could it be as simple as only duelist's can issue challenges?

14 minutes ago, Jedi samurai said:

2) We know Duelist is a trait - what "rule book effect" or type of action do we think will interact with that keyword? Could it be as simple as only duelist's can issue challenges?

Well if we take into consideration that the "Cavalry" keyword does nothing on it's own, then probably that will be the case with "Duelist" also...
Personally i like that approach, that the keywords role is just for interaction with other cards...

1 minute ago, C3gorach said:

Well if we take into consideration that the "Cavalry" keyword does nothing on it's own, then probably that will be the case with "Duelist" also...
Personally i like that approach, that the keywords role is just for interaction with other cards...

certainly possible.

However in other FFG games don't they have "rule book" keywords and "interaction" keywords?

Since I'm Crane Clan the usage of trading honor for cards and duelling is perhaps the most intriging part of the new ruleset. Can't wait how it will work/feel in practice.

I think the duel mechanic will be not only used for the traditional Iajutsu duels but perhaps also for other actions like sadane contest from the previous game.

We haven't seen any traits with rulebook effects so perhaps traits will just 'boost' or enable certain cards. If it does have a rulebook effect it could something as simple as winning ties or being able to adjust your bid by + or - one after reveal.

2 minutes ago, Jedi samurai said:

certainly possible.

However in other FFG games don't they have "rule book" keywords and "interaction" keywords?

In Agot "interaction keywords" like Knight, Lord, Lady are traits and "rulebook keywords" like Stealth, Pillage are keywords. So there is precedent.

26 minutes ago, Jedi samurai said:

However in other FFG games don't they have "rule book" keywords and "interaction" keywords?

21 minutes ago, Mig el Pig said:

In Agot "interaction keywords" like Knight, Lord, Lady are traits and "rulebook keywords" like Stealth, Pillage are keywords. So there is precedent.

Yeah, but in AGoT traits and keywords are placed in different spaces of the cards design.

In Victarion for example: Captain.Ironborn.Lord. are the interaction traits , while Intimidate. Renown. are the rulebook keywords .

In what we have seen Duelist is placed along with the Bushi, Courtier, Shugenja, Cavalry "traits" that are (probably) just for interaction purposes... (For Cavalry it's confirmed, and for the other three it's a "safe" assumption i guess).

1 hour ago, Mig el Pig said:

Since I'm Crane Clan the usage of trading honor for cards and duelling is perhaps the most intriging part of the new ruleset. Can't wait how it will work/feel in practice.

I think the duel mechanic will be not only used for the traditional Iajutsu duels but perhaps also for other actions like sadane contest from the previous game.

We haven't seen any traits with rulebook effects so perhaps traits will just 'boost' or enable certain cards. If it does have a rulebook effect it could something as simple as winning ties or being able to adjust your bid by + or - one after reveal.

Yes, balancing duel stat, glory, honorable/dishonourable, how much to bet......

43 minutes ago, C3gorach said:

Yeah, but in AGoT traits and keywords are placed in different spaces of the cards design.

In Victarion for example: Captain.Ironborn.Lord. are the interaction traits , while Intimidate. Renown. are the rulebook keywords .

In what we have seen Duelist is placed along with the Bushi, Courtier, Shugenja, Cavalry "traits" that are (probably) just for interaction purposes... (For Cavalry it's confirmed, and for the other three it's a "safe" assumption i guess).

This could be the case, were just saying it's not a given.

I would prefer if Duelist and other keywords did not signify rulebook abilities. We'll have enough to keep up with as it is.

I would be fine with Duelist not having a rulebook mechanic attached to it, but I hope that the classical duellist clans like Crane and Dragon will get some cards that they can play to boost their duel capacity, since I would be shocked if I would have to lose in the future my duels to win (through honour) my games.

3 hours ago, Kakita Shijin said:

I would prefer if Duelist and other keywords did not signify rulebook abilities. We'll have enough to keep up with as it is.

Totally agreed. The fewer things that need definitions in the rulebook, the better. It's so much easier to be able to tell people "that trait means that they are a good duelist, and sometimes get bonuses from certain cards" than having to flip to the rules, read it, implement it, and continue playing. You do learn them quickly enough, but while learning and teaching a new game it can really break the flow. I'd be happy with this solution for many of L5R's past rulebook keywords - duelist, cavalry, tactician, etc.

4 hours ago, Jedi samurai said:

This could be the case, were just saying it's not a given.

It's about the only true given we can say right now even without the rules. Every FFG LCG distinguishes between Traits and Keywords in the same way: Traits are the bolded/italicized words that have no innate meaning, but may be used by other card effects. Keywords are things which have a rulebook meaning, and are printed in plain text.

On the cards shown, we can see a Keyword (Limited, which is then defined as the same it is in every LCG, much as they do in every core set, for ease of new players). And we can see a ton of Traits, as expected: Bushi. Shugenja. Fire. Courtier. And Duelist.

So Duelist is a Trait, which means it will have no innate rules meaning. But it might be used by other card effects. Or it might not. We'll have to see.

5 hours ago, Drudenfusz said:

I would be fine with Duelist not having a rulebook mechanic attached to it, but I hope that the classical duellist clans like Crane and Dragon will get some cards that they can play to boost their duel capacity, since I would be shocked if I would have to lose in the future my duels to win (through honour) my games.

I like how intense dueling seems it will be in the LCG. But I'm worried the same as you, as a Crane player. Will I have to lose my duels in order to win honor ? If so, that sucks.

I think Crane and Dragon will take a lof of advantages from dueling of course, but I would like that all clans can be decent at dueling (both military and honor duels) if they want. Of course, if you build your Crab deck without taking honor dueling into account, you will suck at it. But if you want to build a Crab or Unicorn deck very resilient to honor dueling, I would like it that you can. It would just be a trade-off and you will be less strong on other things then.

So that dueling both becomes interesting, and really only one of many tools in the hand of players. I have always felt dueling was a pain in the arse for every player that was not Crane or Dragon, and that's not something I like. As a Crane / Lion player, I've also always wanted to duel with the Lion, and it was never possible.

What in your opinion will be every clan's dueling strengths ?

Crane, Dragon, Phoenix (?) : political & military

Scorpion : political

Crab, Lion : military

Unicorn : neither ?! military ?

Where does this info come from?

My initial reaction is that I really despise this. Duels are supposed to be about honor for the victor so, in this game, the loser gains honor while the winner loses it? My favorite decks were Crane Honor/Dueling so this really seems to go against what I loved about the previous version of L5R.

I really hope they come up with a different mechanic for this.

IIRC duelist has a value, that's added to the duel's chosen stat. I might be wrong, but I think I read that somewhere.

I don't think, neither do I wish, it will work this way.

'Duelist' should give you access to cards and maybe a small bonus for winning like 'when you win a duel, win one honor'.

1) You don't need bonuses that help you to win the duel, because it's probable that when you declare a duel on a character, you're already having the advantage over that character.

2) It gives too much an edge to duelists, and it contradicts my wish to see dueling interesting for every clan out there.

22 minutes ago, TechnoGolem said:

Where does this info come from?

My initial reaction is that I really despise this. Duels are supposed to be about honor for the victor so, in this game, the loser gains honor while the winner loses it? My favorite decks were Crane Honor/Dueling so this really seems to go against what I loved about the previous version of L5R.

I really hope they come up with a different mechanic for this.

The info came from the AMA on Thursday.

I can actually see where this is coming from. Consider one of the iconic duels of L5R history, which has so many knock-on effects over the decades afterwards.

Mitumoto Satsu sees Hida Yakamo being a boor, insulting a lady. He challenges the Crab Clan Hero, saying that his words are false. Yakamo doesn't want to back down so accepts. [Would you agree that Satsu has a 2-3 point advantage over Yakamo in raw skill?] Satsu is honourable, he knows he can't lose a fair duel and believes that honour is more important than his life. Yakamo cares nothing for honour, only winning. [Would you agree that Satsu sets his dial to 1 and Yakamo to 5?] Hida Yakamo turns up with his tetsubo, hits Satsu in the face with it and kills him. Everyone has to acknowledge that Yakamo's words are true, but now he and his family are even more looked down upon. [Yakamo wins the duel, Satsu gains the honour.]

As a final note, duels are only about gaining honour if the card creating the challenge says it is about honour. What would you think if there was a card which started a Military duel, with the winner gaining 3 honour? I challenge someone with 1 less Military skill than I have. How do you focus?

It's not because you chose a story that goes your way, that it's the way it could aways be portrayed.

Take the last 100 duels that happened in Rokugan, and tell me if it's mostly the winner or the loser that ends up gaining honor ? If in this LCG the loser is always the ones that gains honor, it does pose a problem.

Edit : on your final note, you mix-up the honor gain that happens during the duel (the dialing actually), with the result of the duel. The result of the duel will depend on its nature and the effect that triggered it. We are here talking about the honor you gain during the dialing phase of the duel, and the problem it creates : "okay so if I want to be sure to win this duel, I will dial high, and so I will give honor to my opponent" -> which is totally wtf in L5R.

What I am thinking of the use of the dial is that it represents your conduct for the duel, rather than anything to do with your skill in it. The equivalent in the original CCG was the likes of Poisoned Weapon - it almost guarantees you winning but costs you honour. What you gain from the duel will be on the challenge.

I like how the dueling is handled. It's not unlike a Scorpion Clan Champion (Nitoshi) didn't use underhanded means to win a duel against the Phoenix Clan Champion (Tsukimi), or so... some malicious deceivers will have you believe...

Now the Dueling system, since its fair to assume that the trait doesn't provide any bonus, I think it will be a requirment for using the cards that initiate a duel. Just like spells and shugenja.

Anyway this is just pure speculation at this point...

24 minutes ago, Tonbo Karasu said:

What I am thinking of the use of the dial is that it represents your conduct for the duel, rather than anything to do with your skill in it. The equivalent in the original CCG was the likes of Poisoned Weapon - it almost guarantees you winning but costs you honour. What you gain from the duel will be on the challenge.

You totally avoid the issue here.

That you have cards that allow you to go dirty in order to win your duel, that's totally something else. Because you can chose which card you play. You can't chose the rules that apply to you. Actually, such cards will probably be printed in the future.

We are here talking about the rules that apply to every duel. When you say that the dialing represents your conduct and not your skills, then you're obviously misportraying it. Because it would mean that the honorable duellists would always lose their duels against the dishonorable guys. Because the dishonorable guys would dial high, and the honorable duellists (eventhough they are far better) would not ? That does not make sense at all.

I think it's good and for me, it makes sense.

If you're dueling somebody who is inferior to you, if you anticipate correctly your opponent bidding, you can win the duel without losing any (maybe even winning some) honor. If you make a mistake in your bidding, it can represents your character over- or underestimating his opponent, or his opponent's will to go beyond "fair" means to win the duel and your character unability to see it coming or to cope with it.

If you're dueling somebody equal or superior, you can't expect to win without making perfect jugdment or your opponent making a mistake, or by using "cheating" means.

You're not supposed to win both a duel and honor without taking any risk (that was one of the problem with dueling in the CCG at times).

From what we now I have hope for that system.

Skilled duelists don't need to "cheat" to win (thus bid little honor).

Unskilled duelists cannot win without dishonouring themselves (thus bid lot of Honor).

The effect of winning a duel (depending on the duel card) and the honour you will get from it are separated and I think it's a good nuance to emphasise.

27 minutes ago, Katsutoshi said:

You totally avoid the issue here.

That you have cards that allow you to go dirty in order to win your duel, that's totally something else. Because you can chose which card you play. You can't chose the rules that apply to you. Actually, such cards will probably be printed in the future.

We are here talking about the rules that apply to every duel. When you say that the dialing represents your conduct and not your skills, then you're obviously misportraying it. Because it would mean that the honorable duellists would always lose their duels against the dishonorable guys. Because the dishonorable guys would dial high, and the honorable duellists (eventhough they are far better) would not ? That does not make sense at all.

I believe that you are also missing some point there, as many people miss the same point within draw mechanic. If someone is willing to bid high constantly - not only is he giving you honor but its his honor loss as well.
I can imagine loosing by honor in first turn (following mad logic of some people that everyone will pick 5 everytime) by bidding draw and then duel with 5. All your opponent has to do is to bid 1 twice, and you are down 8 honor which in some cases may be enough already ( if lion has 12 starting honor and crane got 11, I can see scorpion having 8).

Yes - those rules apply to every duel, and in every duel now, each clan has the means to be tricky (which imho is good). Imagine that bidding on a dial is focusing, and picking high number means you brought poisoned weapons and other dishonorable stuff with you, or maybe you are taking advantage over way lesser opponent than you (being dishonorable as well).

Using this, makes you lose honor regardless of winning/losing the duel.

We still don't know effects of duels, those may pretty well give you honor, make person honorable etc. (maybe character was so good at dueling no one saw the poison on the weapon)
Many people jump to conclusion way too fast I believe.

I can understand that this mechanic, along with fate are two biggest changes to the game and it will confuse a lot of people, some not being able to get along with those, but to all of you friends (I consider people sharing the same passion as friends anyway) stay positive and open minded, soon we will be able to see all of those mechanics live and we will be able to judge in a more accurate way if we gonna like it or not.

I like what I've seen so far for the new duelling system.

I disagree with the comments people are making around a high score suggesting use of dishonourable tactics. Personally, I like to think of the dial as an 'effort' indicatory. A duelist who chooses a low value has faith in their own abilities or the kami while a high value indicates the duelist is really pushing themselves to try get an edge. This doesn't have to be a poisoned blade even if there is a shift in honor between the two clans. I would see the higher stat duelist picking a high score as failing to show mercy, while a lower score duelist picking a high score is failing to show composure.

Typing things out helps me process so, let us take the hypothetical example of a Mirumoto Samurai (3 Military) versus a Kakita Samurai (1 Military). During a military conflict, the Mirumoto Samurai issues a duel to the Kakita Samurai which would result in the loser bowing. If the Dragon player bids 5 they know they will win the duel, but it could result in a big swing of honor. The Mirumoto will have between 4 to 8 versus the Kakita's 2 to 6. The Crane player needs to bid 2 higher than the Dragon player to get a tie and 3 higher to win.

The potential results.

• The Mirumoto wins the duel, the Kakita bows, 1-4 honor shifts from the Dragon to the Crane as the Crane bid lower.
• The Mirumoto wins the duel, the Kakita bows, 1 honor shifts from the Crane to the Dragon as the Dragon bid lower.
• Tie? Both lose and bow? It should mean 2 honor shifts from the Crane to the Dragon as the Dragon bid lower.
• The Kakita wins the duel, the Mirumoto bows, 3-4 honor shifts from the Crane to the Dragon as the Dragon bid lower.

The result that cannot happen without outside interference is that the Kakita will win and the Dragon player will not receive honor. If the Dragon player is looking to only gain honor, they will bid 1. If they are interested in only winning the duel they will want to bid 4 or 5. If they want to win the duel but want to minimise the honor swing they will need to play a bit of a guess game, aiming to be as close as possible to 1 point over the Crane player. Similarly the Crane player will need to access the goal of the Dragon player (who after all initiatied the action) and to see how it effects their overall goal. So the duel resolves, and then the military conflict ends. Assuming the attacked wins they may take or gain honor (Air) or Honor or Dishonor a personality (Fire) which could result in further honor shifts.

Lots to think about!

9 hours ago, Drudenfusz said:

I would be fine with Duelist not having a rulebook mechanic attached to it, but I hope that the classical duellist clans like Crane and Dragon will get some cards that they can play to boost their duel capacity, since I would be shocked if I would have to lose in the future my duels to win (through honour) my games.

Remember, something as simple as "duelist's win ties" would be a rulebook effect. I assume every clan will have duelists and/or be able to be competitive in dueling (one of the biggest issues with the CCG), but I'm also sure Dragon and Crane will 1) Have more personalities with duelist and 2) Have more unique conflict cards that interact with duels.

3 hours ago, Katsutoshi said:

I like how intense dueling seems it will be in the LCG. But I'm worried the same as you, as a Crane player. Will I have to lose my duels in order to win honor ? If so, that sucks.

I think Crane and Dragon will take a lof of advantages from dueling of course, but I would like that all clans can be decent at dueling (both military and honor duels) if they want. Of course, if you build your Crab deck without taking honor dueling into account, you will suck at it. But if you want to build a Crab or Unicorn deck very resilient to honor dueling, I would like it that you can. It would just be a trade-off and you will be less strong on other things then.

So that dueling both becomes interesting, and really only one of many tools in the hand of players. I have always felt dueling was a pain in the arse for every player that was not Crane or Dragon, and that's not something I like. As a Crane / Lion player, I've also always wanted to duel with the Lion, and it was never possible.

What in your opinion will be every clan's dueling strengths ?

Crane, Dragon, Phoenix (?) : political & military

Scorpion : political

Crab, Lion : military

Unicorn : neither ?! military ?

Remember the betting is only 1 aspect of the duel. If you're a Crane player there will be 1) Duelist and Target selection - picking a target with a lower duel stat right off the bat puts you in a position where you can bet lower. 2) The element of dishonoring your target first - if your duelist is a 3/3/1 (military/political/glory) and honorable, and you're dueling a 2/2/1 dishonorable personality - you have a 4 to 1 advantage before you even bet. Your opponent might bet 1 because he has no chance, but he also might bet 5 to try to force a tie if he doesn't want to lose his guy. 3) I'd be surprised if there aren't conflict cards that affect the duels in some way and I'm sure Crane will have access to duel advantage and/or honor gaining effects there.

I'm sure (At least hope) other clans will have their advantages in dueling. Crab being able to change political duels to military, Phoenix being able to have Shugenja add glory to duel stat or something.