Personally, for Shadowlands, I hope they release a box set to make them a boss/raid opponent that's played 1v4 as a multiplayer format (like WoW raid decks back in the day). I don't think FFG LCGs have done something like that (from the competitive ones at least).

44 minutes ago, profparm said:

Personally, for Shadowlands, I hope they release a box set to make them a boss/raid opponent that's played 1v4 as a multiplayer format (like WoW raid decks back in the day). I don't think FFG LCGs have done something like that (from the competitive ones at least).

Star Wars had a non-tournament legal expansion in which one Imperial player tried to handle up to four Rebel scum. Not exactly the same, as Imperial was already playable in the game, but close.

16 hours ago, Arkhonai said:

Not to be rude nor offensive, just to clarify.

Green was used by Naga (for the first time) in 1995 (shadowlands set)
I can understand that we are all passionate for our clans, but lets keep it cool.

Yea considering Naga was slithering around before the samurai were born I'd say they would take the cake for green; But such is life they are still in the deep slumber for the reboot.

Regardless as player from the old days I'm excited to jump back in from 95 to 98 played a ton ready to see this excitement in a box.

I would be very surprised if we never see Shadowlands as a playable faction. Yes, there are easily seeable problems with the honor dial system and other new mechanics, but I suspect they will eventually be playable, possibly with the first deluxe expansion. Playing the "bad guy" faction has long been a part of L5R and there are some players out there for whom this is their favorite way to play.

9 minutes ago, Ryric said:

I would be very surprised if we never see Shadowlands as a playable faction. Yes, there are easily seeable problems with the honor dial system and other new mechanics, but I suspect they will eventually be playable, possibly with the first deluxe expansion. Playing the "bad guy" faction has long been a part of L5R and there are some players out there for whom this is their favorite way to play.

It's not because it's long been a part of the old L5R that it should be part of the new one. I'd much prefer if the bad guys stay away from being playable factions. And it's not only the Spider that shouldn't become playable, it's also the Shadow, the Kolat, etc.

The game doesn't need the bad guys to be playable.

4 minutes ago, Ser Nakata said:

It's not because it's long been a part of the old L5R that it should be part of the new one. I'd much prefer if the bad guys stay away from being playable factions. And it's not only the Spider that shouldn't become playable, it's also the Shadow, the Kolat, etc.

The game doesn't need the bad guys to be playable.

Wasn't that the founding principle of the Scorpion: to be the (playable) villains?

I can understand the difficulties of having Shadowlands or other bad guys being playable factions, but I imagine we'll see it happen in some way (even if not tournament-legal). I'm just curious, if we end up with something like the Siege boxes, with several Rokugani decks against a single enemy, will the enemy be player-controlled or some kind of self-playing "Players vs. the game mechanics" thing? I could see pros and cons of each approach.

Are the White Walkers a playable faction in AGoT? That would be the equivalent of a Shadowlands Horde faction.

2 minutes ago, Tonbo Karasu said:

Are the White Walkers a playable faction in AGoT? That would be the equivalent of a Shadowlands Horde faction.

Nope, they're not. There are no playable white walkers in the game, AFAIK (but I've been out for a few packs).

14 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

Wasn't that the founding principle of the Scorpion: to be the (playable) villains?

I can understand the difficulties of having Shadowlands or other bad guys being playable factions, but I imagine we'll see it happen in some way (even if not tournament-legal). I'm just curious, if we end up with something like the Siege boxes, with several Rokugani decks against a single enemy, will the enemy be player-controlled or some kind of self-playing "Players vs. the game mechanics" thing? I could see pros and cons of each approach.

Exactly. Scorpion are an excellent villain for the political/military machinations. Shadowlands cards should be there to be included in a deck, showing the corruption of a clan. It should work well within the mechanics already there (having political AND military conflict) and is flavorful.

I can seeing them add a Shadowlands faction however they should not have the problem L5R had, who did not look towards the future of L5R.... when Shadowlands was added the very stronghold broke fundamental win conditions of the game. Worked for flavour and story but not game design. Tried to correct it later with Spider in a very convoluted manner, which worked mechanically but not story/flavour wise. If FFG add in shadowlands as long as they don`t break the mechanics they should be able to add the flavour with good design.

Corruption should be insidious. The lure of the Shadowlands should come from cards that corrupt your deck, and make you lose honor. But it shouldn't be big onis and swarms of goblins, IMHO.

I hope that non-existence of Shadowlands as a playable faction out of the core set will mean that we won't see XYZ cards every release dedicated to a silver bullet mechanic vs Taint.

58 minutes ago, Ser Nakata said:

It's not because it's long been a part of the old L5R that it should be part of the new one. I'd much prefer if the bad guys stay away from being playable factions. And it's not only the Spider that shouldn't become playable, it's also the Shadow, the Kolat, etc.

The game doesn't need the bad guys to be playable.

It doesn't need it, but a lot of players want it - kinda like dueling.

49 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

Wasn't that the founding principle of the Scorpion: to be the (playable) villains?

I can understand the difficulties of having Shadowlands or other bad guys being playable factions, but I imagine we'll see it happen in some way (even if not tournament-legal). I'm just curious, if we end up with something like the Siege boxes, with several Rokugani decks against a single enemy, will the enemy be player-controlled or some kind of self-playing "Players vs. the game mechanics" thing? I could see pros and cons of each approach.

Yes, but they changed overtime. They aren't the villains anymore.

37 minutes ago, Tonbo Karasu said:

Are the White Walkers a playable faction in AGoT? That would be the equivalent of a Shadowlands Horde faction.

The difference is the The Others (read a book) are, through almost all the entire story to this point, unseen. Its a looming threat. The Shadowland horde is a very real threat that everyone knows exists, they attack the wall daily etc...

13 hours ago, Gaffa said:

Not always, and not for all people. Not every gaming story requires the villains to be playable to be good.

And there's absolutely zero reason to take any of their establishing plot points in what little they've given us so far and claim any sort of sign that it indicates upcoming factions.

If you are excited about playing Shadowlands, that's fine, but right now all we know for factions is that there's seven Great Clans. Don't overread just because you're eager.

Right, and if you don't want it, you don't have to play it. But some people will want too. L5R has a history of and a player base that plays shadowlands/spider clan exclusively. Why not introduce that into the new game for those players?

13 hours ago, Gaffa said:

Of course they could have plans for it. Or they might not. But there's nothing out right now that shows any sign of additional factions or not.

Likewise the RPG. They might be working on one. Or they might not. Right now, we don't know. An announcement at the grand debut at GenCon would be emotionally appropriate, but if there's no plan right now to do it, then they won't say anything.

The point was, you claimed the earliest they could introduce a new faction would be 2019 or 2020 because printing schedule. Assuming you're right about the schedule, the shadowland cards could already be in the que.

1 hour ago, WHW said:

I hope that non-existence of Shadowlands as a playable faction out of the core set will mean that we won't see XYZ cards every release dedicated to a silver bullet mechanic vs Taint.

My intuition would be to assume the opposite. That is to say, if the Shadowlands are not a playable faction then making anti-Taint cards is easier for the design team, because then it just becomes meta rather than a hard shutdown of an entire faction.

I mean Purity of the Seven Thunders was a powerful play against a tainted/corrupt deck, but was just unfair against a Shadowlands Horde deck (as it was basically an auto-win.)

If White Walkers existed as a playable faction in AGoT, and I actually played that game, that's the faction I'd pick because none of those humans deserve to live.

And the Shadowlands is a giant horde of goblins and oni. Fighting that horde is what the Crab clan does. It's not just random people exploring maho use or summoning the occasional dark entity. There is the creeping corruption aspect to the Shadowlands but there is also the swarm of monsters that want to eat your children.

1 hour ago, Jedi samurai said:

Right, and if you don't want it, you don't have to play it. But some people will want too. L5R has a history of and a player base that plays shadowlands/spider clan exclusively. Why not introduce that into the new game for those players?

Because that's not the way you want your game to go? That decision is in the hand of FFG now, not us.

Yes, there could be Shadowlands factions coming down the pike. Or there could not be. We have no way of knowing either way. Given the fact that FFG has only ever had one LCG which ever introduced new factions in their first deluxe expansions (Conquest), and the fact that they want to be establishing the core set play themes of all the Great Clans before mucking about with other concerns, I think watching how they developed Call of Cthulhu and Game of Thrones is a better example. It's looking far more likely that the first seven deluxes will be the Great Clans. That puts us into 2021 or 2022 before any potential new factions are added.

As currently established in the Organized Play rules for FFG, cards in the base and deluxe expansions are not going to rotate. Which means the Unique personalities in the core set are going to be around for the duration of the game's print run. Which indicates that FFG's approach to story telling and player involvement is going to be more than a bit different than AEG's. And on more practical terms, since they've shown their commitment to making this an ongoing competitive game, all their data points except for the one outlier of Conquest indicates they're going to concentrate on giving the Great Clans, Crab to Unicorn, their deluxes first, to ensure the Great Clans get their evergreen cards required to last through however many set rotations this game runs for.

I could be wrong (and I'm too lazy to fact check) but I thought the Martell's (and maybe greyjoys) in GoT came out as a deluxe Expansion.

Just now, profparm said:

I could be wrong (and I'm too lazy to fact check) but I thought the Martell's (and maybe greyjoys) in GoT came out as a deluxe Expansion.

Martells were added, yes, but that so long ago that Game of Thrones was a CCG, not an LCG (I was talking about LCGs above). And they were still added after the other Great Houses got their deluxes first.

Just did the research. For the LCG first edition, the core set only had 4 factions. Greyjoy was the first deluxe expac, and Martell was the second.

This was similar to the CCG, but definitely when the game was an LCG. One of the first LCGs for that matter.

Sauce: https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/products/a-game-of-thrones-lcg/

As another example, while not a full faction, the scoundrel/bounty hunter subfactions for Star Wars LCG was released as the first deluxe Expansion.

There is plenty of precedent for new factions in early deluxe expacs.

3 minutes ago, profparm said:

There is plenty of precedent for new factions in early deluxe expacs.

While there is, the main point is that we cannot be sure L5R will be similar. Conquest explicitaly announced the next two factions in the core set. L5R could follow the same path. Or not. Too early to know.

2 minutes ago, profparm said:

Just did the research. For the LCG first edition, the core set only had 4 factions. Greyjoy was the first deluxe expac, and Martell was the second.

This was similar to the CCG, but definitely when the game was an LCG. One of the first LCGs for that matter.

As another example, while not a full faction, the scoundrel/bounty hunter subfactions for Star Wars LCG was released as the first deluxe Expansion.

The Game of Thrones example isn't quite fair, because Game of Thrones 1.0 was grandfathered over to LCG status after starting its life as a CCG (and that only after the surprise success of Call of Cthulhu's purported swan song by becoming an LCG started the whole LCG train a'rolling in the first place). The core set they were released to enhance was a CCG set, and for a lot of GoT 1.0's life, you'd have a confusing mixture of CCG and LCG cards both being legal at the same time (which is one of the big reasons they rebooted the whole thing). Still, thanks for the data points.

I can't bring myself to include the Scoundrel and Scum factions from Star Wars in there, because they were around from the starting core set. Yes, you couldn't make a *good* Scoundrel or Scum deck based on the Star Wars core, but you could make one, and it'd be legal. This is different from Conquest where there were literally no Tyranid or Necron cards until their deluxe expansions came out; you couldn't play a Tyranid deck before the Tyranid deluxe no matter how much you wanted.

I agree completely. (I don't mean to sound like a dissenting internet voice just for the sake of dissent.). With FFG, I like to give them benefit of the doubt, because I feel like I've been rewarded often. My faith has been punished often as well, but so it goes.

That said, while I personally want to see Mantis show up, I'd enjoy Spider but don't feel it's crucial, and I dont really want Shadowlands Horde as a normal faction.

1 hour ago, Gaffa said:

Because that's not the way you want your game to go? That decision is in the hand of FFG now, not us.

Yes, there could be Shadowlands factions coming down the pike. Or there could not be. We have no way of knowing either way. Given the fact that FFG has only ever had one LCG which ever introduced new factions in their first deluxe expansions (Conquest), and the fact that they want to be establishing the core set play themes of all the Great Clans before mucking about with other concerns, I think watching how they developed Call of Cthulhu and Game of Thrones is a better example. It's looking far more likely that the first seven deluxes will be the Great Clans. That puts us into 2021 or 2022 before any potential new factions are added.

As currently established in the Organized Play rules for FFG, cards in the base and deluxe expansions are not going to rotate. Which means the Unique personalities in the core set are going to be around for the duration of the game's print run. Which indicates that FFG's approach to story telling and player involvement is going to be more than a bit different than AEG's. And on more practical terms, since they've shown their commitment to making this an ongoing competitive game, all their data points except for the one outlier of Conquest indicates they're going to concentrate on giving the Great Clans, Crab to Unicorn, their deluxes first, to ensure the Great Clans get their evergreen cards required to last through however many set rotations this game runs for.

I think a lot of it depends on why Shadowlands wasn't included, which we can't really answer at the moment. If it was left out simply because of space, we could see it rather early. If it was left out because it would require a lot of special rules, it'll most likely show up in some later, special expansion (if at all). If it was left out for story reasons (just because the current time period isn't as focused on the fighting the Shadowlands, other than the Crab), it could show up in a later expansion.

Personally, I'm guessing it's the second option (with Mantis, if they get reborn as a Great Clan at all, falling into the third category).

Not that I'm advocating bringing back the horde, but I see a lot of people saying you would have to add special rules for Shadowlands and I don't see it. All you have to write on their stronghold is "You cannot win an honor victory." Don't give the Shadowlands immunity from honor loss or losing by 0 honor. If Shadowlands hit 0 honor, they lose the game. This is thematically that the Horde has grown too visible of a threat and the rest of the clans banded together to wipe you out. Theoretically, you can let the Shadowlands win an honor victory too. This isn't so much as the Shadowlands winning by honor but the opponent losing by dishonor. By this I mean that thematically your opponent has been shown that they are so bad that the shadowlands appear to be a beacon of honor in comparison.