I wouldn't mind the rise of the Mantis in the new storyline nor their existence as a faction in the LCG. For most of the other factions, though, I think they should just refrain. I got into this game with a Naga deck but once I knew more about the lore of L5R the less it seems they should be an active faction, unless they are rewriting how they exist in the world. (If they're a living empire next to the Empire or some such then sure, make them a faction)

Otherwise, leave Naga, ratlings, monks, Ninja (with a capital N), minor clans, etc. as "splashable" characters available to any clan just like Imperials always have been. I think its just cleaner and doesn't distract from the root of the Great Clan conflicts. Again, if Mantis eventually rise as a power (whether as a clan or as Yoritomo's Alliance, or even the Three-Man alliance without the Mantis) then sure, make them a consistent faction for the game from there on out. But nothing that's going to come and go. That's just gimmicky.

I love my Naga. I would be so happy to see them as their own faction. But I don't see it happening. There are too many little factions for them all to be accommodated, and I would feel bad if my particular faction got in while someone else's didn't. What I would love to see, and would actually work out, would be them mixing the little factions into other decks. Have Crab aligned Rattlings. Have Pheonix aligned Naga. Have Scorpion aligned Ninja [well, obviously, but Nothing style Ninja]. Shadowlands would probably make most sense having representation within every faction, but that would work for a Dynasty pack or two themed around it. Honestly, a handful of unaligned Naga will make me super happy, but I can hope for more.

On the subject of a Shadowlands faction and honor, I could see it working like so: You are playing the members of the Shadowlands that aren't fully fallen. You are the ones who still have your own minds. If your honor hits 25, that means you have cemented your self control, can impose your will upon the Shadowlands as a whole, and can march it across the empire as a coherent force. If your honor reaches 0, you become a mindless spawn, and your story is over. Sure, the Shadowlands doesn't care much about honor, but you need self control to remain more than some derp.

On 2017-04-21 at 9:31 PM, Wintersong said:

I always found dishonor decks autolosing to Shadowlands to be fitting. The weird part was to be able to honor victory against Shadowlands.

This is a good comment, but basically why I don't think Shadowlands or Spider have anything to do with the game as is.

What made both the CCG and the RPG unique was the focus on Honor and Bushido, and the etiquette and culture and glory surrounding that. The second you throw out the twin concepts of Honor and Bushido, you're left with Lord of the Rings or Game of Thrones with katanas. That might be fine for some, but I'd rather not go there.

One way that Shadowlands would work great, however, would be in games like L5R Siege: Heart of Darkness where several regular decks can team up against a massive Shadowlands army.

Multipost. How do I delete these, anyway?

Multipost!

On 4/22/2017 at 7:39 AM, Jedi samurai said:

Mantis does have a player base that shouldn't be disregarded.

That doesn't mean they need their own separate decks right away. Anyone that truly loves the Mantis should be supporting the existence of Mantis, Centipede, and Wasp personalities.

On 4/22/2017 at 7:40 AM, Mon no Oni said:

It's a done deal, so we can either enjoy it, or we can be bitter about it. I will do my best to enjoy it and, in any capacity I have, will try to influence the new storyline to bring about the Spider.

TBH, I hope that attempts to bring about old Spider don't succeed. The Spider as they previously existed were a mess of ideas, and if The Lost attempt to form a faction within Rokugan again, I hope it's realised with the possibility of being done differently.

I wouldn't mind Spider reintroduced as a cult of Dark Kami working behind the walls. Kind of like Bloodspeakers.

I always preferred Spider as the Horde myself. What I wanted the Spider to be was a Kolat faction, those who were dissatisfied with the stiffing conditions imposed on them by the Kami and the great clans, plotting to overthrow the existing order and replace it with something more akin to the ways before the Kami fell when man ruled his own fate.

For Mantis I am a long time player started with them in Crimson and Jade, lived through the first time we got dropped from the game, fell out of the game for a while after that due to life getting in the way of play time so all I could do was really follow the story rather than play. Was just looking at getting back into the game with the Ivory and 20 Festivals when the announcement dropped that they were axing us again.

I was one of those supporting for rebuild in a new way. I really wanted to diversify and play up the identities of the minor clans that made up the original alliance. Have the Wasp return to their bounty hunter/Magistrate roots, Centipede due to the closer association with the Mantis family in the aftermath of the Great Clan formation become the new "Leaders" of the clan and merge the concepts of their Sun worship with the power of the Thunder Dragon and the gifts she bestowed on the Mantis.

I wanted Fox become the heavy political wing of the clan and play up one of the aspects that gets overlooked in their background, in that they maintained one of the most extensive libraries of Imperial history and the most thorough genealogical record of the Empire for their brethren in the Unicorn while they were fulfilling Shinjo's duty to explore the world for the Emperor. I really wanted them to shift to being the lead force in arranged marriages and the idea that they were THE place you went to if you wanted to determine if a political marriage would be advantageous or not. It was all to play off the idea of the Foxbride and give a second meaning to the term where a marriage was arranged due to the machinations of the Fox.

Mantis I wanted to play up that given the Clan was getting trashed by some massive Shadowlands/Military threat most likely survivors would be Merchants and Sailors so have the efforts of the clan shift to supporting the other clans in their efforts by supplying capital and other resources and have the surviving military go on a recruitment drive a la the Crab 20 goblin winters. Call it the 20 Strongest challenge where any Ronin who could get 20 Mantis to vouch for his courage could swear fealty and become a member of the clan.

We also don't know where the story is going yet. For all we know Daigotsu might show up as a foil to the Seven Thunders instead of the Four Winds. I wouldn't completely rule out the Spider showing up as the default Shadowlands faction as some point (perhaps in a way like WHW suggests above.)

Just as long as they don't eat the Sparrow this time...

I would love the spider to show up. It's very hard to imagine how they would work as a playable faction given the amount of honor based mechanics in the game, but it would be awesome. Obviously, I wouldn't want them to be a great clan again. More like what WHW suggested. I'm just not a fan of the big bad monsters of the shadowlands. I'd much prefer tainted human evil masterminds working against the empire... infiltrating... eating the Sparrow... stuff like that.

There are two ways that I would find fun as far as reintroducing Spider goes:

1. The Cult inside the Rokugan. People invoking Dark Kami to fix their problems. Spider Mon would work great as a cult symbol. Might be or might be not connected with the Horde - you could either do it as a pragmatic cult that tries to progress it's own interests, or as a extension of the Horde. Or the second manipulating the first. Note this doesn't call them "a clan". Spider Cult sounds cool on it's own.

2. Fu-Leng apologists. A heresy/secret society that believes that problems of Rokugan come from the imbalance. What imbalance? The fact that all the Kami other than Fu-Leng receive worship, of course. A group that sincerely believes that the way to restore spiritual balance to the Empire is to simply give Fu-Leng a hug. You could put creation of a Fu-Leng Clan as their "final" goal.

3. You could combine 1 and 2, by having an external group trying to hijack and abuse the "good" Fu-Leng apologists while trying to corrupt them and use them as a insider force in the Rokugan proper for the Horde.

43 minutes ago, Sparks Duh said:

It's very hard to imagine how they would work as a playable faction given the amount of honor based mechanics in the game

They could act as spies, pretending to be honourable, concealing their corrupt ways. For them, loss due to dishonour would be along the lines of exposure for who they truly are.

46 minutes ago, Metalrift said:

They could act as spies, pretending to be honourable, concealing their corrupt ways. For them, loss due to dishonour would be along the lines of exposure for who they truly are.

And that cover act falls away in the fiction not long after, right? Or do they continue to fool pretty much everyone, and force a clan that's supposed to keep them on the straight and narrow to fail, too?

6 hours ago, BitRunr said:

That doesn't mean they need their own separate decks right away. Anyone that truly loves the Mantis should be supporting the existence of Mantis, Centipede, and Wasp personalities.

Hey! Show some respect for the best minor clan ever, the Fox Clan!

3 hours ago, WHW said:

I wouldn't mind Spider reintroduced as a cult of Dark Kami working behind the walls. Kind of like Bloodspeakers.

While I am against the Spider being part of the clans, something like that is fine. I am not against stories evolving but I would prefer the whole Fu Leng stuff being an enemy that has no place in Rokugan.

1 hour ago, Sparks Duh said:

I would love the spider to show up. It's very hard to imagine how they would work as a playable faction given the amount of honor based mechanics in the game, but it would be awesome. Obviously, I wouldn't want them to be a great clan again. More like what WHW suggested. I'm just not a fan of the big bad monsters of the shadowlands. I'd much prefer tainted human evil masterminds working against the empire... infiltrating... eating the Sparrow... stuff like that.

We need Shadowlands presence in the form of "ugly monsters" and hidden threats. As for honor mechanics for a Spider, that honor could mean infiltration in the society. Reaching 0 could mean exposed and reaching 25 could mean puppeteer.

Just now, Wintersong said:

Hey! Show some respect for the best minor clan ever, the Fox Clan!

But the story of Rokugan never progressed far enough for the Fox to be dragged into an alley and painted green.

Also, you spelt Badger wrong.

3 minutes ago, BitRunr said:

But the story of Rokugan never progressed far enough for the Fox to be dragged into an alley and painted green.

Also, you spelt Badger wrong.

Huh, that's a funny way to spell Tortoise.

The Dragonfly is emblematic of Samurai.

Regarding Mantis, I'm pretty sure we have the player support to push for forming our clan again, should the opportunity arise (not saying it's guaranteed to happen, just that if the decision is at all player-driven, I think we can do it). The main hurdle I see is that Dragon have sort of stolen our color (seriously, was I the only one who had to do a double-take on literally every single Dragon card, because I kept thinking it was Mantis?).

Ah, well. It's not easy being green...

As much as I like the Mantis, and the characters they had (was an avid Mantis player until they remade Cavalry in Ivory Edition), like Yoritomo, Tsuruchi, Wakiza, Ryosei, and their story arcs (I really liked the Aramasu story, and afterwards the succession wars between Kumiko and Kitao), I'll happily play another Clan until FFG deems it a good time to introduce the Mantis (or another Minor Clans Alliance).

During Gold Edition, there was a time when Mantis had no legal stronghold available, and it was not that bad. We can't be sure Mantis and Spider will ever come back. I could see FFG stick with 7 factions for ever. It's still going to be an awesome game and I'm also convinced the story FFG will tell will be good and interesting.

For the time being, I'll mainly play Unicorn and I'll probably dabble in decks from other clans as well, but I'm also sure that if FFG ever brings the Mantis back, I'll definitely keep a green deck around.

Or the Naga, they were cool as well.

4 hours ago, BitRunr said:

But the story of Rokugan never progressed far enough for the Fox to be dragged into an alley and painted green.

Also, you spelt Badger wrong.

And you spelled 'spelled' wrong.

1 hour ago, JJ48 said:

The main hurdle I see is that Dragon have sort of stolen our color (seriously, was I the only one who had to do a double-take on literally every single Dragon card, because I kept thinking it was Mantis?).

Dragon chose green first.

4 minutes ago, Sparks Duh said:

And you spelled 'spelled' wrong.

Fortunately, I'm not American, so I didn't.

6 minutes ago, BitRunr said:

Dragon chose green first.

Maybe in the RPG, but in the CCG, their cards' color has always been yellow.

5 minutes ago, KerenRhys said:

Maybe in the RPG, but in the CCG, their cards' color has always been yellow.

Go take a look at Imperial legal Dragon personalities and tell me what two colours you see on their clothing.

http://imperialassembly.com/oracle/

4 minutes ago, BitRunr said:

Go take a look at Imperial legal Dragon personalities and tell me what colours you see on their clothing.

http://imperialassembly.com/oracle/

I think I talked about their cards' color, not about their clothing... So look at those cards you linked and tell me the color you see on their border. And you should take a look yourself at those clothing, there are as much yellow/gold than green, if not more.

Quote

I think I talked about their cards' color, not about their clothing

Even then, cards have two colours. Do you remember the Yoritomo's Alliance / Mantis Clan card colours? Daikua comes to mind.