17 minutes ago, pt106 said:

I would disagree with you here. I feel that in this token setup is great as brace is better that a redirect and without double evade the ship would get toasted from long range (And with a redirect in would cost more)

At long range the ship is very survivable. Its speed and maneuverability make it a good flanker, so as to limit the long range shots it's taking. But when it actually commits basically any well placed shot from a large ship is going to pop it anyways.

My real issue is that the token suite is 100% ineffective against enemy squadrons (ok, maybe 98% against Rhymer). The Raider was designed as an anti squadron support ship. Redirect would at least offer it some modicum of protection against the pin pricks of a fighter wing.

23 minutes ago, draco193 said:

At long range the ship is very survivable. Its speed and maneuverability make it a good flanker, so as to limit the long range shots it's taking. But when it actually commits basically any well placed shot from a large ship is going to pop it anyways.

The solution is not to send Raiders into the best arcs of strong enemy ships. I see people run Raiders into front arcs of unactivated ISDs/VSDs or side arcs of unactivated MC30s/MC80s and just hope the Raider will live. It absolutely will not. You need to use that maneuverability at speeds 1 and 2 to avoid that kind of situation.

Quote

My real issue is that the token suite is 100% ineffective against enemy squadrons (ok, maybe 98% against Rhymer). The Raider was designed as an anti squadron support ship. Redirect would at least offer it some modicum of protection against the pin pricks of a fighter wing.

The Raider is designed in part to provide anti-squadron support alongside your fighters. It cannot usually solo enemy squadrons and will fail when used that way.

Edit: Also I don't want to be too aggressive with self-promotion but for realsies I get a lot of mileage out of Raiders in competitive environments and the article I wrote about them should be very helpful for anyone who is struggling to get them to perform. It's a very in-depth write-up, so get comfy.

Just now, Snipafist said:

The solution is not to send Raiders into the best arcs of strong enemy ships. I see people run Raiders into front arcs of unactivated ISDs/VSDs or side arcs of unactivated MC30s/MC80s and just hope the Raider will live. It absolutely will not. You need to use that maneuverability at speeds 1 and 2 to avoid that kind of situation.

Agreed here. I'm just a believer that even at red range a single evade would likely be enough to keep it alive. Since its ship fighting tactics shouldn't be charging into the best arcs.

Just now, Snipafist said:

The Raider is designed in part to provide anti-squadron support alongside your fighters. It cannot usually solo enemy squadrons and will fail when used that way.

Understood. It's lore was to be supporting fighters out in the field which means It should have a nice ball of ties escorting it. It still doesn't change the fact though that Brace and Evades are useless for engaging fighters. Intel means that group of escort Ties is ignored to possibly remove the Raider in a single activation. Flechettes have helped a lot in this regard, but if it's going to be in the thick of helping deter enemy fighters I'd prefer redirect to brace.

9 hours ago, thecactusman17 said:

INSTANT. FAIL.

In order to get in range, you needed the NAVIGATE command to bring you up to speed 3-4 to catch up with it. That means you need a NAVIGATE command to slow back down to either turn into another target, turn away from a target, or avoid the board edge.

If your opponent has planned things even marginally well, they're hugging the board edge to make a ram effort kill you. AND they're positioned to make it impossible to turn back in towards another target. So unless you're running Ozzel, you're going to need a command dial to reposition to hit another or even just escape the threat envelope of their dedicated combat ships or squadrons.

Try again.

Hey hey be nice.

I've had plenty of moments where the enemy flots got bunched up like in a squadron scramble to get that mass 2 BCC Toryn bubble going on and then they had a hard time getting out.

2 hours ago, draco193 said:

At long range the ship is very survivable. Its speed and maneuverability make it a good flanker, so as to limit the long range shots it's taking. But when it actually commits basically any well placed shot from a large ship is going to pop it anyways.

My real issue is that the token suite is 100% ineffective against enemy squadrons (ok, maybe 98% against Rhymer). The Raider was designed as an anti squadron support ship. Redirect would at least offer it some modicum of protection against the pin pricks of a fighter wing.

Yeah. Their defense against squadrons is HORRIFIC. Terrible terrible terrible. And people say we shouldn't worry about our small ships being literally popped by 3 activations of Bwings.

This type of design failure makes my blood boil.

1 hour ago, draco193 said:

Agreed here. I'm just a believer that even at red range a single evade would likely be enough to keep it alive. Since its ship fighting tactics shouldn't be charging into the best arcs.

From my experience this is not the case. Think multiple TRC attacks. Also being alive is not sufficient, the amount of shield damage it receives while being at long range matters a lot for its viability.

3 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Yeah. Their defense against squadrons is HORRIFIC. Terrible terrible terrible. And people say we shouldn't worry about our small ships being literally popped by 3 activations of Bwings.

This type of design failure makes my blood boil.

Why are you landing them near 3 squadrons of b wings before they activate though? And if I need to use Yavaris and it's b wings that's bare minimum 57+5+3*14=104 points. To blow up a 44 point ship. This is OP how?

I think in part Raiders also live and die by the activation order. Just thinking now of a particular list which saves a Yavaris + FCT activation for last behind a 100+ point bomber ball with intel. If Raiders are my strongest anti-air asset, I don't think I want to get them anywhere close to that, which means having to activate those Raiders last.... if I have the activations for them.

10 hours ago, ovinomanc3r said:

ST+APT+Screed

Let's see.

Command: CF

Roll and get whatever. Add a blue and get whatever. At this point if you have no accuracy spend 1 blue and get it. If you don't have any black crit, spend 1 black and get it. Flotilla dies.

The worst roll would be 3 accuracies and 2 blanks. But as long as the third blue is added after that. As you don't need accuracy anymore add a third black instead.

Could the flotilla survive this? Yes but with a pretty little percent. EDIT: 0.09% if I am not wrong.

100% if its a Tua+ECM

53 minutes ago, geek19 said:

Why are you landing them near 3 squadrons of b wings before they activate though? And if I need to use Yavaris and it's b wings that's bare minimum 57+5+3*14=104 points. To blow up a 44 point ship. This is OP how?

Mostly cuz you can one-shot any small ships except the mc30 with this set up, add FCT and the ease of threat range increase is too darn high. The ability to one-shot and remove ships from the table also is a particularly valuable set of firepower. A reminder also that those 3 Bs plus a Yavaris front shot plus BCC is also this: 3x2x2.5dmg = 15dmg + 1dmg x 3 red(avg) = 18, if you add Norra pricing 2-3 times, you get 20-21 damage from 104 + 26 + 18 = 148. And that's only from 4 squads plus counting the BCC flotillas and Norra, but Norra and the flotilla also serve as basically easy additions that AREN'T opportunity cost dependent on anything else! And you get an extra flotilla activation while you're at it. That set up is capable of one-shotting every single ship in the game with ONLY the MC80 with AP as an exception where its not really cuz you really don't want AP on an MC80 unless you know you're going against mass squadron only. That MC80 tends to cost OVER 150 and usually around 180 points for the full kits.

This is also a set up thats literally good against anything. Even enemy squadrons wither under 6 attacks form Bwings and 2 AA dice from Yavaris. Small ships, large ships, flotillas. This has no weaknesses.

Second, as it stands, I already know that to be effective you have to add 2-4 squadrons (preferably Tie D) to the Raider to escort it in, then hold them in place with Instigator... as I've already started in one of my very first posts in this front page. So please, don't flame me, I'm getting a lot of heat from your comments.

23 minutes ago, xerpo said:

100% if its a Tua+ECM

Ey everybody look!

The most overpowered and nasty combo that save your flotilla from... just one attack.

Quote

Blail

Yes, that list. The one that is configured to wait until someone is in long range via activation padding, and then pummel it with Yavaris activation B-Wings backed with Norra. It wins because it's purely defensive, and bids to be purely defensive with a lot of cheap ships and flotillas, backed by Yavaris. With a lot of fighters it also has some good deployment advantages as well.

The only effective tactic appears to be bidding lower to get your objectives and force it to be mobile. If you don't it goes second to take passive objectives to sit in the corner and force you to come to it. Then somehow you need to figure out how to defeat a 100+ bomber ball with intel and yet have a list good enough to take on other comers in a tournament setting. The only time it takes first is if you bring Demolisher against it.

In order for a Raider to defeat this I suppose you could fly in there with some Flichette Torpedoes, OE and screed to try shutting down as much as you can when engaging. But what you cant' shut down will certainly attack your Raider. From the times I've tried similar, the Raider hasn't lived, and often Yavaris is the last thing at the end of a 6-activation list, so the RDR would have to be last in and first to go in order for the RDR to actually work. Else, it's a 44-ish point gift to my opponent.

26 minutes ago, Norsehound said:

Yes, that list. The one that is configured to wait until someone is in long range via activation padding, and then pummel it with Yavaris activation B-Wings backed with Norra. It wins because it's purely defensive, and bids to be purely defensive with a lot of cheap ships and flotillas, backed by Yavaris. With a lot of fighters it also has some good deployment advantages as well.

The only effective tactic appears to be bidding lower to get your objectives and force it to be mobile. If you don't it goes second to take passive objectives to sit in the corner and force you to come to it. Then somehow you need to figure out how to defeat a 100+ bomber ball with intel and yet have a list good enough to take on other comers in a tournament setting. The only time it takes first is if you bring Demolisher against it.

In order for a Raider to defeat this I suppose you could fly in there with some Flichette Torpedoes, OE and screed to try shutting down as much as you can when engaging. But what you cant' shut down will certainly attack your Raider. From the times I've tried similar, the Raider hasn't lived, and often Yavaris is the last thing at the end of a 6-activation list, so the RDR would have to be last in and first to go in order for the RDR to actually work. Else, it's a 44-ish point gift to my opponent.

Yes exactly.

--

Honestly atm, I think there are zero choices in our meta except to go 100+ squadrons.

Ex. if you take 5 defenders Maarek Rhymer and a Jump, take one BCC and some small ships, you can easily make the Rieekan list have a hard day. But at the end of that, you ARE running a 134 squadron list yourself. And it isn't without counterplay. The Rieekan player begins to either go for intel-ed one shots or plus padding their score with squadron kills. You end up with an somewhat favorable game to you, but only maybe 60-40. Whereas the Rieekan list and other bomber lists tend to have like a 80-20% chance vs all other lists in the field.

What I have dubbed the cruise missile

Raider 1

OE

APT

Use careful maneuvering to get out of dangerous arcs then torpedo and ram

5 minutes ago, chr335 said:

What I have dubbed the cruise missile

Raider 1

OE

APT

Use careful maneuvering to get out of dangerous arcs then torpedo and ram

A favorite raider build of mine as well

11 minutes ago, shmitty said:

A favorite raider build of mine as well

I'm scared for when external racks comes out. So many black dice, all reroll able! Shudder....

1 hour ago, ovinomanc3r said:

Ey everybody look!

The most overpowered and nasty combo that save your flotilla from... just one attack.

Every turn

1 minute ago, xerpo said:

Every turn

Not every turn. Just those where the flotilla is alive.

Raiders are excellent with Ozzel as the admiral. I followed @Snipafist 's guide to using them and have been seeing fantastic results using his "Cheap McNormal" build: just OE or OE + Flechette Torpedoes.

I use them as fragile mini Gladiators with great anti-squadron potential - the front arc with OE consistently deals 4-5 damage at close range with a strong chance of a single accuracy to lock down an opposing ship's brace. Against most large ships that's enough damage to take out an entire hull zone of shields, opening them up to a finishing blow from Demolisher or another ship.

So remind me, I just went over faq again, but if I have instigator at range one of your b wing, and your b wing is engaged with my tie fighter, but my tie fighter is being made heavy by jan ors, the b wing can or can't bomb instigator?

Because I'm thinking rlb, oe, flechette, carrying Jonus, instigator, flight commander, backed by squads could be dece...

1 hour ago, SkyCake said:

So remind me, I just went over faq again, but if I have instigator at range one of your b wing, and your b wing is engaged with my tie fighter, but my tie fighter is being made heavy by jan ors, the b wing can or can't bomb instigator?

Because I'm thinking rlb, oe, flechette, carrying Jonus, instigator, flight commander, backed by squads could be dece...

It can bomb the instigator since the tie fighter is now heavy.

Well I imagine they make good lifeboat hunters, interesting fact that they are one of the few ships that also carry boarding parties, so they could strip a scatter token before attacking.

I just recently realized that a Raider is not the paper craft everyone thinks it is. Sure if you drive it into the front arc of an ISD it dies, but that's true to a long list o other ships too. But if you fly it right it can get quite a beating. I almost destroyed an AFMKII with it by circling around the whale in a way that in every turn another side was facing the enemy. Sure it was stripped of its shields, sure it took one card in almost every turn, but it pumped three salvos of blue/black dices into the enemy and could have been a fourth if my ISD wouldn't have a more juicy target in its front arc...

I tried the Raider2 with the High Capacity Ion upgrade recently and really liked it. It shifts the role away from squadron hunting or close range APT towards medium range fire support.

It can provide a respectable amount of damage with 5 blues, as it's very easy to double arc. The survivability is not bad, because you can make good use of the Evades at medium range. And I found that it actually throws off your opponents because they expect the Raiders in their other roles, since those are so very prevalent.

1 hour ago, RocketPropelledGiraffe said:

I tried the Raider2 with the High Capacity Ion upgrade recently and really liked it. It shifts the role away from squadron hunting or close range APT towards medium range fire support.

I use this with Admiral Montferrat as my go-to flanking and harassment unit. It's quite survivable if you aren't getting too close.