Overshadowed by the Light Cruiser as a small Imperial ship, killed easily at Range 1 when trying to line up their black dice. But possibly gaining some new life with boarding parties.

What are some Raider builds and fleet strategies and lists that they fit into that you have had success with?

I have thought about running Raider 2 with Admiral Montferrat and SW-7 Ion Batteries. Don't know if there is a fleet for this to fit into though.

Lol. More like killed anytime anywhere. From long range too. =D

However, they are not overshadowed. They're incredibly good for a wall of damage, cheapest ship, great AA, Instigator and high speed for chasing flots. Extremely useful, just fragile.

I'm gonna open with some incendiary talk: Why the heck does everyone think Sensor Teams Raiders are good for chasing flotillas?!?! You lose OE, you lose damage, and basically TWO dice to get one accuracy. You can't even use ST on the side arc without CF.

If I wanted to hunt flots I'd much rather have Raider OE + Jonus or Intel Officer. APT if you ahve the room. Attack with front, IO, attack with side, ram.

Raider 1: OE - required imo.
IO - more damage.

Raider 1: Instigator + OE + (Kallus) + 2 squadrons = the delaying AA platform. Critical tech in Demolisher MSU builds vs squadrons.

Raider 1: OE+ Flechette torps + (Kallus) + 2-4 beefy squadrons - The squadron hater.

Raider 1 : OE + Expanded Launchers -> Old tech for massive destruction, this usually bring the Raider up to 1.2-1.4 ships of firepower.

New Raider 1 face puncher: OE + External Racks. One turn of big face punch. Great value. Probably a 1.0 ship firepower, for really cheap, 51 points!

2 Raiders, make a good wall for your opponents ships to smash their face into.

I'd rate a Gladiator with OE, Cr90TRC around 1 ship of firepower. add APT maybe 1.2 (subjective scale lol).

Raiders really deal nearly 0.8-1.0 ship's value of firepower, in trade for being relatively fragile. They're more offense value than defense.

36 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Why the heck does everyone think Sensor Teams Raiders are good for chasing flotillas?!?!

Cause they are. Sensor Team and APT/EL with Screed means destroyed flotilla everytime.

However is true what you say about the oportunity cost payed making the raider worse in other areas and pointing other ways to do as flotilla killer. But, for the purpose pointed in your question it is clear that ST are good chasing flotillas.

1 minute ago, ovinomanc3r said:

Cause they are. Sensor Team and APT/EL with Screed means destroyed flotilla everytime.

However is true what you say about the oportunity cost payed making the raider worse in other areas and pointing other ways to do as flotilla killer. But, for the purpose pointed in your question it is clear that ST are good chasing flotillas.

ehhhh???

Run that sequence of things with me.

First off, taking EL is 13 points, at that point you might as well invest in an IO TRC Arquitens, which will do even better at that.

Second of all, sensor team removes one die, changes the other blue to acc. Now you have two black dice left and no OE. So lets say theres no crits (75%), then you screed out one die and put hit-crit on the other... whooopteedo? You do one shield, pass them a crit, then give them a regular damage. They're still alive. Add CF and pray you get another hit?

And ONLY if you attack via the front arc? If you miscalculate or he boosts past you your upgrades are freaking useless??
AND ONLY if you used your dial to CF, not to nav not to do ANYTHING ELSE.
AND also predicated on you actually having enough time to catch up to it, as you are only able to realistically do damage to it at CLOSE RANGE.

When we get External Racks, maybe this might be a good idea, but taht's just predicated on dealing 4 damage off 4 black dice. They only average 1. So there will be times you actually fail to achieve the right amount.

Seriously, I need some help with this explanation

56 minutes ago, Shadow345 said:

Overshadowed by the Light Cruiser as a small Imperial ship, killed easily at Range 1 when trying to line up their black dice. But possibly gaining some new life with boarding parties.

Never overshadowed, never needed new life.

The raider is a great ship. And I still find more uses for it than for kittens (even when I like kittens too).

I just understand your point cause I can imagine yourself as one of many players that didn't learn to fly raiders properly. It happens with mc30s too and it is normal. Before going into any customization of its equipment you need to fly it a lot. After that it shines and I should add it shines more than any other imperial ship when you look at its price.

I though as you but my local meta and the pleasure I always feel flying those things even when they pop every time keep myself using them. They won't disappoint you.

Honestly, I have a much harder time finding actual different roles for kittens. They seem to be cost effeective at only one thing: IO + DTT or TRC Needa

11 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

ehhhh???

Run that sequence of things with me.

First off, taking EL is 13 points, at that point you might as well invest in an IO TRC Arquitens, which will do even better at that.

Second of all, sensor team removes one die, changes the other blue to acc. Now you have two black dice left and no OE. So lets say theres no crits (75%), then you screed out one die and put hit-crit on the other... whooopteedo? You do one shield, pass them a crit, then give them a regular damage. They're still alive. Add CF and pray you get another hit?

And ONLY if you attack via the front arc? If you miscalculate or he boosts past you your upgrades are freaking useless??
AND ONLY if you used your dial to CF, not to nav not to do ANYTHING ELSE.
AND also predicated on you actually having enough time to catch up to it, as you are only able to realistically do damage to it at CLOSE RANGE.

When we get External Racks, maybe this might be a good idea, but taht's just predicated on dealing 4 damage off 4 black dice. They only average 1. So there will be times you actually fail to achieve the right amount.

Seriously, I need some help with this explanation

ST+APT+Screed

Let's see.

Command: CF

Roll and get whatever. Add a blue and get whatever. At this point if you have no accuracy spend 1 blue and get it. If you don't have any black crit, spend 1 black and get it. Flotilla dies.

The worst roll would be 3 accuracies and 2 blanks. But as long as the third blue is added after that. As you don't need accuracy anymore add a third black instead.

Could the flotilla survive this? Yes but with a pretty little percent. EDIT: 0.09% if I am not wrong.

1 minute ago, ovinomanc3r said:

ST+APT+Screed

Let's see.

Command: CF

Roll and get whatever. Add a blue and get whatever. At this point if you have no accuracy spend 1 blue and get it. If you don't have any black crit, spend 1 black and get it. Flotilla dies.

The worst roll would be 3 accuracies and 2 blanks. But as long as the third blue is added after that. As you don't need accuracy anymore add a third black instead.

Could the flotilla survive this? Yes but with a pretty little percent.

Okay, lets say i roll 2 hits blue, 1 hit 1 blank black. This is not uncommon.
Add a blue: its a hit or a crit.
Drop 1 blue, change the other blue to a acc: 1 acc, 1 hit blue, 1 hit 1 blank black
Drop 1 black, change to hit crit: 1 acc, 1 hit blue, 1 hit-crit black
ACC scatter, no evade via close range.
Deal 1 faceup with APT. deal 1 shield, deal 2 facedown. Okay. Sure. Its dead.

But still requires CF dial, and ONLY at close range in the front arc.

Also you drop OE for more AA and you have no mods for your other attack. Since you had to use Screed already.

Okay. It checks out.

However, again only at close range in the front. That's the only time it works. Seems like its a plan that can be counterplayed easily, and I like to assume my opponents are better at this game than I am.

I too find Raiders very difficult to use.

They do best against ships when you are 1st player. Set up your position the turn before, take your shot and run after. External launchers will aid this strategy. This is easier if you have last activation as well, which is achievable given their low cost. You can run multiple raiders like this, just be aware that as only one will be able to activate first, you'll want to time their runs over a few turns.

They don't work well as flankers, as their range is too short. If the enemy moves speed 1-2, they will be out of black range for your own shot.

The other main role is as a support/anti-squadron ship. They can shield your big ship's side against both Demo/MC30 and against fighters, meanwhile if the enemy choose to change target to them, they are hopefully sitting at a sub-optimal range compared to the bigger ship it is flanking for, and waste the shots of the ship shooting them instead of its friend.

Also not much is stopping it doing both roles, 1st protecting the big ship, then accelerating and making its attack run. It will have to choose between flechette and external launchers, but the rest of its build is pretty static.

42 minutes ago, ovinomanc3r said:

Command: CF

INSTANT. FAIL.

In order to get in range, you needed the NAVIGATE command to bring you up to speed 3-4 to catch up with it. That means you need a NAVIGATE command to slow back down to either turn into another target, turn away from a target, or avoid the board edge.

If your opponent has planned things even marginally well, they're hugging the board edge to make a ram effort kill you. AND they're positioned to make it impossible to turn back in towards another target. So unless you're running Ozzel, you're going to need a command dial to reposition to hit another or even just escape the threat envelope of their dedicated combat ships or squadrons.

Try again.

31 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Okay, lets say i roll 2 hits blue, 1 hit 1 blank black. This is not uncommon.
Add a blue: its a hit or a crit.
Drop 1 blue, change the other blue to a acc: 1 acc, 1 hit blue, 1 hit 1 blank black
Drop 1 black, change to hit crit: 1 acc, 1 hit blue, 1 hit-crit black
ACC scatter, no evade via close range.
Deal 1 faceup with APT. deal 1 shield, deal 2 facedown. Okay. Sure. Its dead.

But still requires CF dial, and ONLY at close range in the front arc.

Also you drop OE for more AA and you have no mods for your other attack. Since you had to use Screed already.

Okay. It checks out.

However, again only at close range in the front. That's the only time it works. Seems like its a plan that can be counterplayed easily, and I like to assume my opponents are better at this game than I am.

- Sure it works only at short range... as OE.

- Sure it guarantee the flotillas death only with the main arc but save you the side arcs to shoot anything else.

- Sure you loose OE. As I said this setup has its own opportunity cost. But works. You ask why people think this setup is good chasing flotillas? Cause it does! Is good for other purposes? Probably not, but with screed and APT is not bad against other ships at all. And ST could help again DCO ships.

- Not easy to avoid raiders front arc. And has the point of a close circuit combo. Jonus could be engaged/killed (but has others uses of course). IO is good but more expensive and require you to double arc or more shots from other source/rounds. ST needs the front arc but if you get it it's done.

Would I play with this setup? I did once but I like the raider to other task. Not cause the setup is bad rather than I found chasing flotillas usually useless.

2 minutes ago, thecactusman17 said:

INSTANT. FAIL.

In order to get in range, you needed the NAVIGATE command to bring you up to speed 3-4 to catch up with it. That means you need a NAVIGATE command to slow back down to either turn into another target, turn away from a target, or avoid the board edge.

If your opponent has planned things even marginally well, they're hugging the board edge to make a ram effort kill you. AND they're positioned to make it impossible to turn back in towards another target. So unless you're running Ozzel, you're going to need a command dial to reposition to hit another or even just escape the threat envelope of their dedicated combat ships or squadrons.

Try again.

INSTANT. FAIL.

JJ or even a navigate token.

It is not like I learned to play yesterday.

I don't discuss if players could or could not do something to prevent the opponent from do his will. I just say that ST raider can kill flotillas and is good for that even when is not good for other things. Everything is useless if it cannot shoot, command squadrons or whatever. I think the raider is not the hardest ship to get a shot with.

And if someone is missunderstanding me:

My favorite setup is:

OE, flechette torpedoes and navigate.

Yeah, and I'm saying that mandating a command option to make an expensive set of upgrades work is highly inefficient and prone to interruption. What happens when Concentrate Fire isn't a valid option, or even worse has been changed by Slicer Tools or a Comm Noise critical effect?

Now, I'm looking at this from a competition lens. In a casual game? Sure go wild. But in competition, I don't want any of my options being left to chance.

1 minute ago, thecactusman17 said:

Yeah, and I'm saying that mandating a command option to make an expensive set of upgrades work is highly inefficient and prone to interruption. What happens when Concentrate Fire isn't a valid option, or even worse has been changed by Slicer Tools or a Comm Noise critical effect?

Now, I'm looking at this from a competition lens. In a casual game? Sure go wild. But in competition, I don't want any of my options being left to chance.

Even without CF you have 2 damage on hull (one face up) guarantee.

The investment: 44+5+5+26

Screed works on your entire fleet and work against squads.

The raider still performing well against squads. Not re rolling but 2 black are good enough.

At then end the I investment is not so high.

On the other hand I already know your pov about flotillas. I don't share it but I don't think it was completely wrong. The opportunity cost of chasing lifeboat flotillas right now is high but lifeboat flotillas or just those that run away are not the only kind of flotillas and they do not where I play.

I'm probably one of the few people who rarely uses the raider for it's black die capabilities and runs the ion setup instead. Raiders were the perfect wave 2 solution to activation count and low costs for an ISD fleet. I used to run 2x with OP on them and nothing else and then a 3rd one as a AA assistant to a cluster of advanceds or some ties.

Sure, they didn't live long, but as long as they delivered a successful OP for my Avenger ISD to harvest, who cares, amirite?

Wave V, I mostly run them as others do, flechettes, OE, AA stuff, but from time to time, when I'm feeling cheeky, I'll run Tua,ECMs,GT,OP on one parallel to my ISD Avenger. The ECMs typically give it an extra round to do its thing, and it's low cost allows me a very robust fighter screen.

2 minutes ago, Darth Sanguis said:

I'm probably one of the few people who rarely uses the raider for it's black die capabilities and runs the ion setup instead. Raiders were the perfect wave 2 solution to activation count and low costs for an ISD fleet. I used to run 2x with OP on them and nothing else and then a 3rd one as a AA assistant to a cluster of advanceds or some ties.

I never tried it. I did it with VSD OP but hard to make it works so I discarded the idea looking for other things. I have raider OP in the list with JJSD OP. Not enough time to try things

4 hours ago, thecactusman17 said:

INSTANT. FAIL.

In order to get in range, you needed the NAVIGATE command to bring you up to speed 3-4 to catch up with it. That means you need a NAVIGATE command to slow back down to either turn into another target, turn away from a target, or avoid the board edge.

If your opponent has planned things even marginally well, they're hugging the board edge to make a ram effort kill you. AND they're positioned to make it impossible to turn back in towards another target. So unless you're running Ozzel, you're going to need a command dial to reposition to hit another or even just escape the threat envelope of their dedicated combat ships or squadrons.

Try again.

But what if my opponent doesn't bring flotillas??! How will I be able to kill them!?!?

Stop making the "perfect" scenario just to shut down an argument. You're making it sound like you can never catch a flotilla with a Raider. What if you are attacking Toryn Farr? She's in the middle of the fight. What about Suppressor? What about Slicer? What about BCC? Those flotilla aren't doing the Relay delay dance way over in the middle of nowhere.

What if you kill the Raider before it get's close? Guess we shouldn't have this discussion then since the Raider died.

It's pretty clear what black sheep is saying is HOW a Raider with ST can kill a flotilla.

Did somebody say Raiders?

Seriously, though, pretty much all my thoughts are in that big long article. Raiders are great, but they're frequently misused and thus misunderstood.

4 hours ago, ovinomanc3r said:

I never tried it. I did it with VSD OP but hard to make it works so I discarded the idea looking for other things. I have raider OP in the list with JJSD OP. Not enough time to try things

Using a two part OP setup is generally frowned upon, at least as I've been told here on the forums, but I believe it's still a very practical way to deliver a powerful blow, sometimes two, in a single round.

Raiders with OP are tricky, take screed for sure, and you'll need con fires or gunnery teams to hit multiple targets.... The problem you run into using raider to OP tap, is at blue range most ships worth OPing will chew a raider up. If you're lucky enough that the opponent doesn't roll an accuracy or have the means to gain one, you can weather about 11 damage with the brace and evades... if they get their accuracy you're looking at 6 if you can force them to lose a damage with an evade. (That's why I like taking Tua and ECMs, just give it a little extra damage mitigation)

My advice for OP tapping, especially with raiders, is make sure you bring enough ship to finish the job. You're probably going to lose the raider, but if your VSD or ISD can take two enemy ships from it's sacrifice, then good deal.

Personally, I'd run the ISD Avenger with it. There are various arguments to maximizing odds for maximum damage, I typically take sure things, but either way Avenger normally brings enough to the table to finish multiple ships. (I'd never use a VSD.... speed 2 is crippling for me lol)

I really wish the raider had a different defense token set up. Dual evade brave is great for a ship ducking out of combat at long range. But for a ship that is designed to be an anti squad maven the token set is basically useless. Dual redirect and an evade would make more sense.

Great timing on this post. Was trying out a list last night that felt a little low in firepower - thought I would trade out one Gladiator for two Raiders and was going to start looking for Raider threads.

I've been thinking about trying Raiders again since the Battlefront II trailer so all of this is good reading *munches popcorn*

I run my Raider with OE+Flechette Torps. 3 points is great for a situational upgrade. OE bumps damage all around. Running a CF allows it to kill flotillas.

Just a very simple ship.

23 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

I run my Raider with OE+Flechette Torps. 3 points is great for a situational upgrade. OE bumps damage all around. Running a CF allows it to kill flotillas.

Just a very simple ship.

Yes, my two favorite versions on the Raider so far are either OE+Flechettes or naked Raider 1. IT takes time to figure out how to fly them, but afterwards they can deliver.

45 minutes ago, draco193 said:

I really wish the raider had a different defense token set up. Dual evade brave is great for a ship ducking out of combat at long range. But for a ship that is designed to be an anti squad maven the token set is basically useless. Dual redirect and an evade would make more sense.

I would disagree with you here. I feel that in this token setup is great as brace is better that a redirect and without double evade the ship would get toasted from long range (And with a redirect in would cost more)