I must say, I haven't flown against Fenn Rau much at all yet in general, and have zero games against him with TIEs, but I have had decent success against Soontir in the past, so I can't imagine Rau is invulnerable, especially without Palp or an evade token. Most of what I fly against are 2 ship lists, mostly with low agility. Miranda absolutely melts against concentrated fire, and Bossk doesn't last long either. Dengar and Rey are harder to pin down, but splitting your approach and blocking will leave both ships hurting.

I fly TIEs all the time, but I actually haven't flown Howlrunner in ages. For me, the R1 bubble just puts too much constraints on my flying, and I have to have a split deployment to reliably get 3-4 turns of blocking on the first engagement. That's why I prefer Youngster, Swarm Leader, and Wampa, and snap shot as the upgrades for my swarm. They are all more flexible with movement, which is where the strength of the list really comes from.

Fenn is harder to deal with than Soontir IMHO

5 hours ago, devotedknight said:

Are Imp list Still Competitive?

Yes. You can no longer autopilot with your list, now you have to work on occasion for wins. Like every other list.

Defenders and Aces are still solid options for them. Everyone of their Aces is a good option, and all of their defenders are good options, and SF's are, and Palpatine is still good.

And how could I forget, Kylo RAC.

A 29 point Omega Leader, 31 point Inquisitor, and Expertise Stealth Device x7 Vessery. What about this squad isn't competitive? Can all 3 of your aces be double stressed? Does Miranda have bombs for them all? You have a chance most of the time with something like this.

52 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

Fenn is harder to deal with than Soontir IMHO

See, I've found the opposite. Fenn needs to be more aggressive, as he wants R1, so he's much easier to block. The lack of an evade makes him much easier to hit too. His main advantage over Soontir is that 5 dice R1 shot, but it also means he's very predictable.

That's just my experience though. Maybe your local Fenn players are better than mine.

Maybe I was just better at Soontir games?

You pretty much always knew what Fel was going to do - run. Fenn runs but there's always the the threat of a t-roll onto the front foot, while Soontir was pretty much never going to K-turn near the fight.

58 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

Fenn is harder to deal with than Soontir IMHO

I second this. Its a problem of having too many range areas where Fenn is mathematically taking only 1 damage or dealing crippling dmg and not taking ANY at all. All of R1 isn't great. All of R3 isn't great. R1 in front of him is super loaded to his favor. This is where the title shines.

The most horrifying things are this: Fenn Rau actually has an odd thing for dice luck: with 4 hull at 32 points he actually maanages taking 1-3 damage much better than soontir. With Attanni he doesn't give a crap about being blocked as long as he can shoot.

In this sense, plus his title and auto, Fenn actually seems to depend even MORE on dice in a sense: You ahve to depend on him rolling "average" or not lucky. I've had games where I go against a good player, and you can't touch Fenn randomly. So you plan for one GREAT move where you block him, its a R1 shot lots of focus fire, and then he goes and blows 2 natural evades form 4 dice, adds a few more via auto or title. All of a sudden, you've done two damage. Other player shrugs.

Fenn Rau is really irritating. Not unbeatable. Not horrendously overpowered.

No. He's slightly overpowered (by around 1-1.5 points ish mathwing) and a pain in the ass to play against. That's all.

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A 29 point Omega Leader, 31 point Inquisitor, and Expertise Stealth Device x7 Vessery. What about this squad isn't competitive?

Dial mismatch/inability to focus fire, green dice reliance, vulnerability to stress, control, blocking, and bombs. It is a Tier 2 list at best - imho. (but very fun to fly!)

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Can all 3 of your aces be double stressed?

They can, but it is rare. Though you don't need to double-stress all 3, just the one you want to kill, rinse and repeat.

OL isn't scary in the endgame, when your endgame is strong, he needs to get there with only 1-2 (preferably 1) enemy ships left.

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Does Miranda have bombs for them all?

She doesn't, but that is what the TLT and wingmate(s) are for.

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You have a chance most of the time with something like this.

You have a chance most of the time with 8 Z95's, but that doesn't make them a good choice to bring for a 7+ round event.

3 hours ago, Turbo Toker said:

A 29 point Omega Leader, 31 point Inquisitor, and Expertise Stealth Device x7 Vessery. What about this squad isn't competitive? Can all 3 of your aces be double stressed? Does Miranda have bombs for them all? You have a chance most of the time with something like this.

Quite a lot is wrong with it, TBH.

A list like that would likely never have been particularly good at any point, but certainly not in a stress/bombs/TLT meta.

TIEs are no longer popular these days for a simple reason. Attacks in the game have been getting steadily more poweful. 3 attack dice with double modifiers and 4 attack dice with a single modifier are considered "okay but nothing special" these days. Anything less is subpar. A ship is only considered to have great firepower if it has 4 or more fully modified dice or an ability that produces similar effect (Rey, Norra, Fenn, swarm leader ships), can shoot twice a turn (Corran, Dengar, Quickdraw, Ghost) or can weaken enemy's ability to defend himself (juke defenders, Old Teroch, Carnor, Ketsu, any ship carrying Zuckuss or 4LOM).

How do TIEs fit in all of that? For starters their firepower obviously seems more meager than ever. These days people build their lists so they can face some truly fearsome punishment and emerge triumphant. With their 2 dice and usually only a single modification TIEs might simply lack the oomph to break through the defenses of ships in the current meta. Still, the sheer number of their attacks might compensate for that... as long as you can keep them alive. Which brings us to the second problem: power creep has achieved the critical point where one-shotting a TIE is less of a "lucky shot" and more in the realm of "expected outcome". It's hardly surprising really - people build their lists so they can hurt x7 defenders that have both focus and evade almost every turn and twice the hp of a regular TIE. As a result you may well end up losing a couple of TIEs before they even open fire and things go downhill from there. Swarm only works well as long as it's... well... a swarm. With every ship lost your ability to overload the enemy defence and to block effectively is substantially diminished. Lose enough TIEs and you're helpless. This makes flying swarm a somewhat binary experience. If the first engagement goes well, you may still do fine, especially against newer players who have never faced a TIE swarm before and have no clue how to play against it. But if you can't win early you're likely to lose badly. And when facing someone good the latter is very likely indeed.

9 hours ago, Gersun said:

I must say, I haven't flown against Fenn Rau much at all yet in general, and have zero games against him with TIEs, but I have had decent success against Soontir in the past, so I can't imagine Rau is invulnerable, especially without Palp or an evade token.

Fenn is definitely different from Soontir. He is very hard for a swarm to damage at R3 due to ATs (as is Soontir). At R1 he can kill one and is usually getting a free evade and -- at least -- an extra defense die if he's pointed the wrong way. Even when blocked he probably still has one token and he has 4 hull, so he's a bit better off than Soontir in the same position even with Palp backup.

R2 is really his weakest band, but good Fenn players aren't going to end up their very often.

I have found Fenn a lot easier to kill than Soontir in a lot of ways, but a swarm isn't one of them for me at least.

@Lightrock Agreed. If they give TIE's a title it would be nice if it had some way of stripping green tokens off of enemy ships... it would give the humble TIE/ln's and FOs a way back into the game as a suppressive fire type unit, and help the Imps compete with the token stacking Scum and Imperial lists.

Are TIEs competitive?

Well, I'll tell you, Sabine in Sabine's TIE is competing for my favorite ******* ship to fly! I've been running:

27: Sabine w/ Lone Wolf, Sabine's TIE, Finn, Cloaking Device, Stygium Particle Accelerator.

It is so unpredictable and insane to fly! TIEs aren't good because they only have 2 reds? This one has 3 if you fly it right. Powerful attacks overwhelming your TIEs' defenses? How does 7-8 green dice and an evade token sound? I can move 11 base lengths forward in a single turn! Eat my space dust, A-wings and interceptors! Or maybe I'll slide sideways 5 base lengths while reversing back one full length and then maneuver. You don't know where she'll be, and if you guess wrong, you're out of the fight for 2-3 turns. Guess right and end up in a joust and you're still looking at TIE phantom levels of defense--4 green dice, focus, and evade if all goes according to plan.

Probably not "competitive" in the traditional sense but I guarantee your opponent will have no idea what to do against her. In my experience they try to bottle her up early, realize it's impossible, and then just ignore her.

Try it 'fore you knock it, and I guarantee mind-melting excitement!

46 minutes ago, Lightrock said:

TIEs are no longer popular these days for a simple reason. Attacks in the game have been getting steadily more poweful. 3 attack dice with double modifiers and 4 attack dice with a single modifier are considered "okay but nothing special" these days. Anything less is subpar. A ship is only considered to have great firepower if it has 4 or more fully modified dice or an ability that produces similar effect (Rey, Norra, Fenn, swarm leader ships), can shoot twice a turn (Corran, Dengar, Quickdraw, Ghost) or can weaken enemy's ability to defend himself (juke defenders, Old Teroch, Carnor, Ketsu, any ship carrying Zuckuss or 4LOM).

How do TIEs fit in all of that? For starters their firepower obviously seems more meager than ever. These days people build their lists so they can face some truly fearsome punishment and emerge triumphant. With their 2 dice and usually only a single modification TIEs might simply lack the oomph to break through the defenses of ships in the current meta. Still, the sheer number of their attacks might compensate for that... as long as you can keep them alive. Which brings us to the second problem: power creep has achieved the critical point where one-shotting a TIE is less of a "lucky shot" and more in the realm of "expected outcome". It's hardly surprising really - people build their lists so they can hurt x7 defenders that have both focus and evade almost every turn and twice the hp of a regular TIE. As a result you may well end up losing a couple of TIEs before they even open fire and things go downhill from there. Swarm only works well as long as it's... well... a swarm. With every ship lost your ability to overload the enemy defence and to block effectively is substantially diminished. Lose enough TIEs and you're helpless. This makes flying swarm a somewhat binary experience. If the first engagement goes well, you may still do fine, especially against newer players who have never faced a TIE swarm before and have no clue how to play against it. But if you can't win early you're likely to lose badly. And when facing someone good the latter is very likely indeed.

Great post.

Only thing I can add is that swarms are still in a place where they bleed MoV all over the carpet, like no other list.

That also hurts them competitively .

7 hours ago, Turbo Toker said:

A 29 point Omega Leader, 31 point Inquisitor, and Expertise Stealth Device x7 Vessery. What about this squad isn't competitive? Can all 3 of your aces be double stressed? Does Miranda have bombs for them all? You have a chance most of the time with something like this.

This is the type of list you see at the middle tables of a major event. Not bad, but not great either. Inq and Vessery without VI don't synergize at all since Inq will be spending his lock before Vessery shoots. That means he's entirely reliant on OL for TLs. You also want TIE Mk. II over Stealth Device here to clear stress. When you come across Asajj, those green banks are invaluable. Not only does stress shut down your tokens next round if you don't clear it, but it also shuts down Expertise. You need a way of dealing with it. Overall the damage output of this list is below average. Vessery is the hardest hitter but he doesn't even have Juke/Crack in this build to punch extra damage through. And yes, Miranda can actually take list down on her own. A cluster mine drop can one-shot a 4-health ship. I've seen it happen to Fenn. One cluster each for Inq and OL, followed by a couple well-placed Thermal Detonators for Vessery (since he moves before her).

Hell, I've had a Warden Squadron Pilot table an entire list, let alone Miranda!

Also, regen. Miranda just needs to kill 2/3 ships and she can SLAM/regen until time. She can even handle OL's puny 2-dice attacks in the endgame thanks to regen.

11 hours ago, Gersun said:

I must say, I haven't flown against Fenn Rau much at all yet in general, and have zero games against him with TIEs, but I have had decent success against Soontir in the past, so I can't imagine Rau is invulnerable, especially without Palp or an evade token. Most of what I fly against are 2 ship lists, mostly with low agility. Miranda absolutely melts against concentrated fire, and Bossk doesn't last long either. Dengar and Rey are harder to pin down, but splitting your approach and blocking will leave both ships hurting.

To add Fenn is the current premier ace in the meta. I would say at least half or more of the scum lists that I've played have included him in the past weeks. I'd strongly suggest that he's an important element to testing a list at this point, but it is good to hear that your swarm has done well with the work you put into it.

One option for dealing with Fenn Rau is to fit Omega Leader into your swarm. Fenn really doesn't like OL.

14 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

Gersun made the QD Swarm Leader list.

And I'm also thinking of trying QD with SL and Frame only. with Howl Adaptability. -> Cuz Evades and Raging on the ties is a little conflicting

Rage is for Quickdraw to Baffle off of, but also boosts the academies once QD is down. So Academies evade, QD Rages from Youngster, gets his damage shot with 5+ dice, then gets his normal shot with 5+ dice.

What about an offensive version of Lightweight Frame?

Turbocharged Cannons

If you roll less red dice than your opponent's agility value, add one red die to your roll.

You can only equip this card if your primary weapon value is 2 or lower.

2 point modification. Wording would have to be cleaned up a bit of course.

Would 7 Academy Pilots or Bandits or whatever be too good with this?

They are still competitive, you can always use them as a 12-16 point filler. It is the TIE swarm that has fallen off the meta. The TIE Swarm is not top tier, but that doesn't mean you won't find the TIE Fighter making it toe the Top 8 somewhere.

5 minutes ago, Marinealver said:

They are still competitive, you can always use them as a 12-16 point filler. It is the TIE swarm that has fallen off the meta. The TIE Swarm is not top tier, but that doesn't mean you won't find the TIE Fighter making it toe the Top 8 somewhere.

With the push towards 2-3 ship lists, you often don't have any room for a 12-16 point filler.

The optimal builds for most ships are in the 30-40 range. It's better to have 3 of those than it is to have something like, 3 x7 Delta Squadron Pilots and Backstabber for example.

Unless they do something fancy like Wampa, Rex, or fat PS 9 untouchable Ahsoka, they have no role.

12 points could be 3 (!) Expertise upgrades in your list

Filler as a whole concept has been dead for like 18 months

Swarms win with 'death by a thousand cuts'. You want to keep all of your ships cheap and expendable, because you can't really protect any of them whether you like it or not. So you want to win the attrition war.

To do that, Operations Specialist is the new Swarm BFF. It is so incredibly good in a swarm! Suddenly, your 2 attack dice academy pilots become vicious, especially at range 1.

Here's the list:

Howlrunner w/ VI = 19

Scimitar w/ TIE shuttle, Operations Specialist & Intel Agent = 20

5 Academy Pilots = 60

99 points.

This list takes A LOT of practice, especially deployment and the approach. Once dice start rolling, as long as you didn't screw up beforehand, you can crush most lists by sheer weight of fully modified dice (thanks to Ops Spec + Howlrunner re-roll).

Its usually a smart idea to take evade with your TIE/ln's because Ops Spec provides the focus tokens (at least for the first turn of fire; after that you will know which ships can safely focus and which ones need to evade/barrel roll).

In most of my matches so far, the opponents quickly realize how big of a threat that bomber is, and they try to kill it (which of course leaves Howlrunner alive). For that reason, I recommend keeping the bomber back. The fact that Ops Spec is Range 1 - 2 really helps!

10 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

Filler as a whole concept has been dead for like 18 months

Any list that can fit a TIE Fighter in it can probably also fit Omega Leader. Or in case of Rebels, the Stresshog instead of a Bandit.

This is the problem with the Striker also. Decent ships, more competitive than TIE Fighters, just not many lists with 20-ish point slots in them.

Quadjumper also has this problem. One with Spacetif Tractor Array and Pattern Analyzer is a good use of 19 points, just no room for the point costs it takes up.