Precisely, @JJ48!

What's the Rokugan equivalent of popcorn?

1 hour ago, Robin Graves said:

What's the Rokugan equivalent of popcorn?

Taint chips?

2 minutes ago, Kiseki said:

Taint chips?

Well I was and am a Spider, so yeah... I'd eat that!

1 minute ago, Robin Graves said:

Well I was and am a Spider, so yeah... I'd eat that!

I feel like it's time to invoke Fu Lecia, the Dark Kami of Farewells.

15 hours ago, oDESGOSTO said:

Unique cards: purely aestethic

I doubt Wireless Net Pavillion would agree with that.

On 25/4/2017 at 4:26 PM, Tonbo Karasu said:

Your preferences:

• 4 Provinces : Check
• 2 Decks : Check
• Gold Scheme smoothed : It's called Fate now, but Check
• Personalities : the biggest difference is Chi -> Political so I'd say mostly Check
• Dueling as we knew it : this is difficult, there is dueling but it's not quite as we knew it
• Five Ring conditions : the five rings are integral to the conflict mechanics

The biggest difference of things which you care about seems to be the dueling. How do you feel about that part?

Look, I don't want to be like some people who hang out on message boards just to trash something they don't like. I might as well don't hang out here at all, which I probably will not soon, but since you asked I may as well answer.

If what we know about dueling is correct then it has nothing to do with honor and real dueling in a japanese themed world like Rokugan. Same as the card drawing mechanism which I'm having a hard time explaining to old players that are not reading the news.

There is absolutely no way that I can justify and explain how you lose honor but win the duel without cheating. And by choosing to use all your strength/chi (I'm assuming this is what the high numbers on the dial are supposed to indicate) you are most definitely not cheating.

I have the same issues with the drawing card mechanism. How on a medieval, feudal, japanese like culture, can striving for more resources (card drawing in my view), cost you honor, assuming you are not using shady means? And you can't assume that getting more resources (card drawing) always involves shady means, come on!

These may be great mechanics for a game of power and wizards that magic costs them mana/life force, but honor in this setting? It just doesn't work for me. If anyone can come up with another explanation please do tell.

2 minutes ago, Belechael said:

Look, I don't want to be like some people who hang out on message boards just to trash something they don't like. I might as well don't hang out here at all, which I probably will not soon, but since you asked I may as well answer.

If what we know about dueling is correct then it has nothing to do with honor and real dueling in a japanese themed world like Rokugan. Same as the card drawing mechanism which I'm having a hard time explaining to old players that are not reading the news.

There is absolutely no way that I can justify and explain how you lose honor but win the duel without cheating. And by choosing to use all your strength/chi (I'm assuming this is what the high numbers on the dial are supposed to indicate) you are most definitely not cheating.

I have the same issues with the drawing card mechanism. How on an medieval, feudal, japanese like culture, cam striving for more resources (card drawing in my view), cost you honor, assuming you are not using shady means? And you can't assume that getting more resources (card drawing) always involves shady means, come on!

These may be great mechanics for a game of power and wizards that magic costs them mana/life force, but honor in this setting? It just doesn't work for me. If anyone can come up with another explanation please do tell.

You describe well the main thematic problem I have with what FFG is doing. However, mechanically, I love them.

Old dueling rules were hot garbage anyway, through every incarnation of the game it was either ineffective, or might as well be an unconditional kill card, or enabled you to mill your deck better than any CCG ever prior.

On Friday, April 28, 2017 at 2:07 AM, Mirumoto Saito said:

Well played! That answer probably wrote itself, I bet you didn't even have to touch the keyboard!

Utterly agree!

Ding-ding-ding, I think we have a winner!

I think people should probably just ignore Bitter-boy from now on. The discussion will probably be better with people that can legitimately talk about pros and cons that aren't just "buah, FFG didn't make the exact same *** game again!"

L5r wasn't ***. It was elegant. This new one is even more elegant. But there are a **** ton of new moving parts that, while I like on paper, may very well not work in an actual game. We'll see, and I'm pretty sure we'll like it for the most part

5 minutes ago, Belechael said:

Look, I don't want to be like some people who hang out on message boards just to trash something they don't like. I might as well don't hang out here at all, which I probably will not soon, but since you asked I may as well answer.

If what we know about dueling is correct then it has nothing to do with honor and real dueling in a japanese themed world like Rokugan. Same as the card drawing mechanism which I'm having a hard time explaining to old players that are not reading the news.

There is absolutely no way that I can justify and explain how you lose honor but win the duel without cheating. And by choosing to use all your strength/chi (I'm assuming this is what the high numbers on the dial are supposed to indicate) you are most definitely not cheating.

I have the same issues with the drawing card mechanism. How on a medieval, feudal, japanese like culture, can striving for more resources (card drawing in my view), cost you honor, assuming you are not using shady means? And you can't assume that getting more resources (card drawing) always involves shady means, come on!

These may be great mechanics for a game of power and wizards that magic costs them mana/life force, but honor in this setting? It just doesn't work for me. If anyone can come up with another explanation please do tell.

I think your assumption about what high numbers on the dial mean is wrong. The simple answer is that by dialing above a 1 on the dial, you are cheating (at the duel). The higher the dial the more dishonorably you're willing to fight. A true contest of skill vs. skill would be both players dialing 1 and letting their natural talent speak for itself.

Similarly, with the cards draw, your conflict deck is all the surprises and tricks you're willing to use. An honorable player doesn't need to use secret tricks, so they draw 1 a turn. Their strength is on the board, in public for all to see. The more you draw the more dishonorably you're willing to act to win.

In our admittedly narrow knowledge of the dial so far, it seems every time you dial a high number your risk dishonor - therefore high numbers on the dial mean a willingness to act dishonorably.

8 minutes ago, Belechael said:

Look, I don't want to be like some people who hang out on message boards just to trash something they don't like. I might as well don't hang out here at all, which I probably will not soon, but since you asked I may as well answer.

If what we know about dueling is correct then it has nothing to do with honor and real dueling in a japanese themed world like Rokugan. Same as the card drawing mechanism which I'm having a hard time explaining to old players that are not reading the news.

There is absolutely no way that I can justify and explain how you lose honor but win the duel without cheating. And by choosing to use all your strength/chi (I'm assuming this is what the high numbers on the dial are supposed to indicate) you are most definitely not cheating.

I have the same issues with the drawing card mechanism. How on a medieval, feudal, japanese like culture, can striving for more resources (card drawing in my view), cost you honor, assuming you are not using shady means? And you can't assume that getting more resources (card drawing) always involves shady means, come on!

These may be great mechanics for a game of power and wizards that magic costs them mana/life force, but honor in this setting? It just doesn't work for me. If anyone can come up with another explanation please do tell.

I can't speak to the dueling, I don't know the rules they have for it.

As for the Honor dial/draw mechanic, being greedy isn't honorable. Honor is taking what you need, and no more. If you take a lot of cards, you're being greedy, and it is dishonorable. Remember you aren't gaining/losing Honor to the ether, but exchanging with your opponent. When you show restraint and your opponent shows greed, you are honorable, while your opponent is dishonorable.

1 minute ago, Ryric said:

Similarly, with the cards draw, your conflict deck is all the surprises and tricks you're willing to use. An honorable player doesn't need to use secret tricks, so they draw 1 a turn. Their strength is on the board, in public for all to see. The more you draw the more dishonorably you're willing to act to win.

Hadn't thought about that. I see it as more greed vs need.

5 minutes ago, Isawa Syd said:

L5r wasn't ***. It was elegant. This new one is even more elegant. But there are a **** ton of new moving parts that, while I like on paper, may very well not work in an actual game. We'll see, and I'm pretty sure we'll like it for the most part

At no point did I think old L5R was elegant. It was quite clumsy at times. However, it was also quite fun with deep strategy at times. I think FFG has touched on the core parts that were "fun" while changing out some of the clumsy awkward mess, and hopefully fixing a lot of the negative play experiences that unfortunately became core concepts of certain clans. (See people's feelings on Dueling and Cavalry).

People seem to be saying in the past few posts the drawing lots of card = dishonorable. That is not the case. If both players draw 5 cards, there is no honor lost at all. If you draw more cards than your opponent, then you lose honor to your opponent. I'm sure people know this already, but I wasn't 100% sure everyone is on that page from what I've been reading.

Quote

Each player secretly selects a number between one and five on their honor dial.

Each player reveals their selection.

The player who selected the higher number gives their opponent an amount of honor equal to the difference between the two selected numbers. If both players selected the same number, no honor is exchanged.

To me, that makes sense. It's like showing up to a sword fight with two swords when your opponent only has one. It's not fair and therefore should be dishonorable. Makes sense to me.

2 minutes ago, slowreflex said:

People seem to be saying in the past few posts the drawing lots of card = dishonorable. That is not the case. If both players draw 5 cards, there is no honor lost at all. If you draw more cards than your opponent, then you lose honor to your opponent. I'm sure people know this already, but I wasn't 100% sure everyone is on that page from what I've been reading.

To me, that makes sense. It's like showing up to a sword fight with two swords when your opponent only has one. It's not fair and therefore should be dishonorable. Makes sense to me.

Pst... Look at the Dragon, known for their dual-wielding. This is a bad example. Also, most samurai bushi carry 2 swords (Katana and Wakazashi).

1 minute ago, Mirith said:

Pst... Look at the Dragon, known for their dual-wielding. This is a bad example. Also, most samurai bushi carry 2 swords (Katana and Wakazashi).

Oh come on. It's just supposed to be a theoretical example. Alright, it's like showing up to a 300cc go-kart race, with a 400cc go-kart. If you say samurai have different cc go-karts then I'm going to start banging my head against the wall.

1 minute ago, slowreflex said:

Oh come on. It's just supposed to be a theoretical example. Alright, it's like showing up to a 300cc go-kart race, with a 400cc go-kart. If you say samurai have different cc go-karts then I'm going to start banging my head against the wall.

A Samurai Would Never drive a go cart. They prefer bumper cars.

2 minutes ago, slowreflex said:

Oh come on. It's just supposed to be a theoretical example. Alright, it's like showing up to a 300cc go-kart race, with a 400cc go-kart. If you say samurai have different cc go-karts then I'm going to start banging my head against the wall.

The great Kaiu Races where various crab families would have a race using "Gaijin Pepper" (Gunpowder) as they raced down the Wall to see who could get from one end to the other fastest. Winner's design would then be adapted for message carrying.

25 minutes ago, Belechael said:

There is absolutely no way that I can justify and explain how you lose honor but win the duel without cheating. And by choosing to use all your strength/chi (I'm assuming this is what the high numbers on the dial are supposed to indicate) you are most definitely not cheating.

Winning a duel also doesn't necessarly makes you gain or lose honor. If both players bid 1 no honor is exchanged but a winner is still declared.

Since we haven't seen a single duel yet, nor characters that react, modify duels we can't be sure yet but the basic system solves a lot of issues dueling had in oL5R.

Consider a conflict card like this

To First Blood!

Action: Your personality challenges an opponents character. Discard the losing character if the duel was won by 3 or more, otherwise Bow and Dishonour the loser.

Winning the duel gives you an advantage but going for the kill in a duel to first blood should cost you honor.

I'm hoping for an article one of these days where to show some duelists, some conflits that create duels and characters, cards, holdings that modify them.

41 minutes ago, McDermott said:

Old dueling rules were hot garbage anyway, through every incarnation of the game it was either ineffective, or might as well be an unconditional kill card, or enabled you to mill your deck better than any CCG ever prior.

Or your opponent played high Chi characters and all 3 and 4 focus cards so your duel-focused deck became a liability. Oh man, those were the days...

1 minute ago, ricefrisbeetreats said:

Or your opponent played high Chi characters and all 3 and 4 focus cards so your duel-focused deck became a liability. Oh man, those were the days...

Everyone was welcome to duel my old Monk Enlightenment deck, what with Ring of Fire requiring winning a duel where you started with lower Chi. At that point you were helping me win, as it was much harder to initiate a duel as the lower Chi and win.

25 minutes ago, Ryric said:

I think your assumption about what high numbers on the dial mean is wrong. The simple answer is that by dialing above a 1 on the dial, you are cheating (at the duel). The higher the dial the more dishonorably you're willing to fight. A true contest of skill vs. skill would be both players dialing 1 and letting their natural talent speak for itself.

Similarly, with the cards draw, your conflict deck is all the surprises and tricks you're willing to use. An honorable player doesn't need to use secret tricks, so they draw 1 a turn. Their strength is on the board, in public for all to see. The more you draw the more dishonorably you're willing to act to win.

In our admittedly narrow knowledge of the dial so far, it seems every time you dial a high number your risk dishonor - therefore high numbers on the dial mean a willingness to act dishonorably.

Truthfully this has always been the part of Samurai culture that I feel AEG got wrong. Samurai where warriors above all else an would not turn-down a way to achieve there Daimyo's will. Tactics and equipment are not in themselves honorable or dishonorable. One of the biggest ways to lose honor in Feudal Japan, was to fail your Daimyo so dirty tricks and tactics where used quite often. A to the dueling, most often duels where a spur of the moment thing on Feudal Japans battlefields. The two samurai either meet with what weapons they where using and have a one-on-one fight weapons already drawn, no one would ever put way their sword just to draw it again. (it was a battle for Pete's sake) add to this that the katana was use rarely in battle due to its short reach. Iaijutsu was a quick-draw technique used mostly off the battlefield to allow a samurai to go from rest to his fighting stance. The idea of the Iaijutsu as it is in L5R is more fantasy them fact but, since this is a fantasy setting that's fine. As for bushidō, the rule as we know them where not even finalized till the rule of Tokugawa Ieyasu in the 1600's. So before that what was honorable was left to interpretation. I mean the Tokugawa was formed because they betrayed their Oda Lords and became vassals of the Imagawa clan. And this is the family that the writer of the code we know comes from.

Now all this is just to say that Rokugan is more Japanese folklore than fact. To try to say that anything in the story has to be one way or another is just crazy. Honor in the game follows more of a fantasy fiction model more related to the high chivalry of King Arther then any real code of honor.

I can not for the love that I have for the previous incarnation of this game accept that you if you want more resources you are greedy and therefore "punished". This is not a game I like to play. That same feeling applies to dueling if what we know so far is true.

To those of you who can interpret all these into something that feels appropriate for this setting I'm very happy for you (no sarcasm). It's just not for me, sigh...

I think you are wasting your time trying. This is a game. It is a representation of an imaginary activity in a world which is made up. The mechanics do not have to have anything to do with your concepts of honour/dishonour at all! For the purposes of the card game it is locked down to 'passing honour' to the one who bid less and that can mean anything you want or nothing at all.

It could be the winner gracefully saying ' he/she lost but fought well so I honour their bravery'

it could be the winner behaving dishonourably so the loser 'gains' honor

or it could be a mechanic and the player could not give two hoots and just use that to win the game.

I hate to bring up an old L5R meme but no one here is actually a magical samurai, Rokugan does not exist and does not have fixed rules as to what is honourable or dishonourable actually is (beyond a passing resemblence to Japanese/Chinese culture but it is not actually Japanese/Chinese culture which does not exist in fictional Rokugan) and this is , in the end, a game involving pieces of card that needs set rules to actually have a game.

Old L5R had just as many factors that could be misinterpreted or considered weird when the mechanic was studied in detail. This will have as well . It is a weakness of any game that has a passing resemblence to a reality.