7 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

I think this helps explain a lot about the changes. Yes, the LCG appears to be a different game mechanically from the CCG, which puts off some of the veterans, but that's only a part of who FFG is trying to reach. I know some veterans who thought two years was too long, and decided they were quitting L5R regardless of what the LCG looked like. I also know there are some who decided they'd give it a chance regardless. I imagine that the number of veterans who are basing their decision of whether or not to return on how similar the new game is to the old is actually rather small.

But then, on the other hand, you also have people who have never played, or perhaps even heard of, L5R. This is a much larger market, if it can be tapped, and so FFG probably decided that if traditional mechanics conflicted with smooth gameplay, smooth gameplay should win. Personally, I applaud their decision not to get so focused on keeping the mechanics identical that they risk the gameplay suffering. I don't yet know if it'll pay off, but I'm glad they're willing to try, at least. Whether or not it "feels like L5R," as some have said, will probably be very dependent on whether the person in question thinks L5R is defined more by its mechanics or its lore. Mechanically, the game will be very different. Lore-ally, we don't know, but I haven't yet seen anything that seems drastically anti-Rokugan.

Speaking of the mechanics, I'm personally not bothered by most of them, simply because I play a lot of different games, with drastically different rules. Just because the rules are different doesn't mean they'll automatically be worse. So far, the only thing that I'm a little skeptical about is the relatively low number of turns they expect games to go (3-6, wasn't it?), because I tend to prefer playing longer games. However, others have pointed out that redoing the rules means that we probably won't need 2-3 turns of just skipping straight to Dynasty and buying Holdings, so that probably translates closer to 5-9 turns of the old game. Since we also don't know how action-packed turns will be able to be, 3-6 turns could still be a very good experience, so I'm not about to complain about it! Not just yet, at least. ;-)

My biggest hope was for a game that I could set up on the table and have a random person walking by stop and ask "Hey, is that L5R?" I feel like I got that, so I can deal with the changes. I have no idea whether or not I'll love the new game as much as I loved the old game, but at this point no one else really does either. I went through BitterVet mode, but gradually came to a place of acceptance. If I hate the game I'll be able to say that I played it, point to my reasons for not enjoying it, and no one should be able to fault me for it since it's my emotional experience. If I love it, I hope that I'll be able to share my hobby with a new generation of players. I hope it's still around when my son is old enough to understand card games.

Back in the day, I remember L5R CCG being nicknamed as the Chess of CCGs. If the LCG can do the same, while not scaring newbies, it will be awesome.

Chess doesn't have enough tokens.

Go, on the other hand, is all about placing "tokens" (stones), so...Go of Card Games :P?

8 minutes ago, WHW said:

Chess doesn't have enough tokens.

Go, on the other hand, is all about placing "tokens" (stones), so...Go of Card Games :P?

It was easier to describe it as Chess for the newbies rather than Go. Anything beyond "samurai", "ninja" and "geisha" was more than exotic enough for newcomers.

9 minutes ago, Wintersong said:

It was easier to describe it as Chess for the newbies rather than Go. Anything beyond "samurai", "ninja" and "geisha" was more than exotic enough for newcomers.

I remember being confused why there were so many guys named "Akodo" in my first starter deck.

1 hour ago, Kiseki said:

My biggest hope was for a game that I could set up on the table and have a random person walking by stop and ask "Hey, is that L5R?" I feel like I got that, so I can deal with the changes.

He asked then you answered with enthusiasm "Yes, it is!". Then he sits down, start playing, then stopped. Look at you and say: "Hey, it looks like L5R but it's totally different game. You cheated me!".

3 minutes ago, kempy said:

He asked then you answered with enthusiasm "Yes, it is!". Then he sits down, start playing, then stopped. Look at you and say: "Hey, it looks like L5R but it's totally different game. You cheated me!".

Or he could sit down and play and say "Hey this doesn't play like before, I quite like the changes! Thanks for playing a game with me. I'm gonna go buy some core boxes now."

6 minutes ago, kempy said:

He asked then you answered with enthusiasm "Yes, it is!". Then he sits down, start playing, then stopped. Look at you and say: "Hey, it looks like L5R but it's totally different game. You cheated me!".

Oh also... you could apply that same quote to the CCG as someone who walks by seeing you play a game of Ivory edition and he quit playing in say... Diamond.

4 minutes ago, Sparks Duh said:

Oh also... you could apply that same quote to the CCG as someone who walks by seeing you play a game of Ivory edition and he quit playing in say... Diamond.

But as it was L5R CCG you could add "Hey, but i have PDF of incoming Twenty Festivals and things will look muuuuuuuch better soon".

Anyway i've found funny you compared LCG to Ivory. You think it will be same level of fun?

9 minutes ago, kempy said:

But as it was L5R CCG you could add "Hey, but i have PDF of incoming Twenty Festivals and things will look muuuuuuuch better soon".

20f is STILL Ivory Edition!

Quote

Anyway i've found funny you compared LCG to Ivory. You think it will be same level of fun?

I wasn't comparing the LCG to the style of Ivory. I was comparing it in a way that shows how much change the game has gone through in the CCG. Which is a LOT. So I'm just not understanding your criticism in regards to the LCG when the CCG went through SO MANY CHANGES in the course of it's time!!!!! How many different dueling mechanics were in the CCG again?

1 hour ago, Sparks Duh said:

I wasn't comparing the LCG to the style of Ivory. I was comparing it in a way that shows how much change the game has gone through in the CCG. Which is a LOT. So I'm just not understanding your criticism in regards to the LCG when the CCG went through SO MANY CHANGES in the course of it's time!!!!! How many different dueling mechanics were in the CCG again?

I see what you want to say. But any change in CCG was just a change, not a completely new project from the ground. How these duels iteration changed tempo of old game? Is there some magic rulebook duel ruling i don't know about that make people don't die in resolution, make Province indestructable, allow to discard randomly card from the hand? Show me, i'm just curious.

Personally I LOVED L5R becasue of these small modifications, without them game had to die 10 years ago. Every edition brougt something new and fresh but it still was L5R to the bone.

Legacy stuff was never a thing in L5R. You really don't know how many times i tried to organize Legacy events - nobody cared. Even when AEG did a HUGE work with Oracle, i mean rewrote nearly 10.000 cards into Emperor template, to make them 100% playable with current ruleset - practically nobody cared about it!

In response to the OP and not in response to the last 7 pages of posts I want to share my experience.

I am 28 years old. My first experience with L5R was when I worked at a friendly neighborhood game store when I was 14. I had an option of 3 starters. I ended up picking Crab based on their principles of sacrifice and persistence in the face of an enemy that literally rises from the dead that also kind of leads them to feel like an outcast fromthe other clans in some respects. I haven't played L5R continuously for 14 years but for most of the last 14 years I have spent my Fridays at game stores supporting my clan. Reading the novels of the books and feeling intrinsically linked to the ideologies of MY clan. To the point that when I type MY clan my eyes literally start to water up. I've traveled across the country to play this game. L5R hasn't had the same success as MTG but I think more than anything L5R has the commitment of an incredibly dedicated, intellectual, critical, kind, and charitable community. This is a game of friends not cards. The flip side of this commitment is that within the community we have a tendency to be overly critical or analytical to a fault and as much as I would say that there is a similarity of personality that spans the L5R community, some people just don't get along. Those two things can be a little volatile. Even though we mean well.

4 hours ago, kempy said:

Legacy stuff was never a thing in L5R. You really don't know how many times i tried to organize Legacy events - nobody cared. Even when AEG did a HUGE work with Oracle, i mean rewrote nearly 10.000 cards into Emperor template, to make them 100% playable with current ruleset - practically nobody cared about it!

Except Modern!

Quote

I see what you want to say. But any change in CCG was just a change, not a completely new project from the ground. How these duels iteration changed tempo of old game? Is there some magic rulebook duel ruling i don't know about that make people don't die in resolution, make Province indestructable, allow to discard randomly card from the hand? Show me, i'm just curious.

So what? I don't really have to show you these things. The game changed and it changed a LOT over the years. This is just another change that that you either accept or not. I find it interesting that your arguments only bring up the changes to the game currently. I can show you an ass load of changes to the game while it was a CCG. Just because those couple that you listed aren't some of them doesn't mean there are none. Make a real argument, man. C'mon. I'm curious if you can.

7 minutes ago, Sparks Duh said:

Except Modern!

Modern isn't true Legacy.

7 minutes ago, Sparks Duh said:

So what? I don't really have to show you these things. The game changed and it changed a LOT over the years.

This "LOT" is completely not comparable. I can take any card from pre-Imperial era dated 1995 and use it in any L5R Legacy deck. Whole concept of game is same as in 1995. Gameplay is same. Order of things is same. Main stats are same. Costs are same. Card types are same etc. All these changes were cosmetic.

L5R LCG is brand new game in Rokugan theme.

20 minutes ago, kempy said:

Modern isn't true Legacy.

This "LOT" is completely not comparable. I can take any card from pre-Imperial era dated 1995 and use it in any L5R Legacy deck. Whole concept of game is same as in 1995. Gameplay is same. Order of things is same. Main stats are same. Costs are same. Card types are same etc. All these changes were cosmetic.

L5R LCG is brand new game in Rokugan theme.

Modern IS a true legacy format. Ask anyone. Just because it doesn't span the entire history of the game doesn't mean it isn't legacy.

Sure it is comparable. There's a **** ton of changes to the game. Just because you can name a few things that didn't doesn't mean there are none. I'm sure people who quit playing in Diamond Edition can tell you are playing L5R in Ivory, but if they sat down to play, you would have to show or tell them all these rules they need to know in order to play. Even if they had a perfect memory and remembered every single rule from Diamond. And I don't think it's only 1 or two rules that you have to go over with them. So yeah... keep telling yourself that the CCG never changed, but we all know better, man.

The new game looks to have a lot of elements the old game had. 2 decks, peeps and actions, resouces, attacking and defending, gaining honor, losing honor, breaking provinces... I can keep going with this just like you are.

7 minutes ago, Sparks Duh said:

And I don't think it's only 1 or two rules that you have to go over with them. So yeah... keep telling yourself that the CCG never changed, but we all know better, man.

Ha, hypotical guy from Gold era could easily use his De Lorean DMC-12, go into Twenty Festivals Kotei and i could easily explain him all changes in few minutes. Man, there was a guy on our 2015 Kotei who last time played in Jade. We gave him Phoenix honor deck before tourney and he finished 3-2 (Szyndler, Artur in the list) just becasue he remember overall flow of the game and main rules.

1 minute ago, kempy said:

Ha, hypotical guy from Gold era could easily use his De Lorean DMC-12, go into Twenty Festivals Kotei and i could easily explain him all changes in few minutes. Man, there was a guy on our 2015 Kotei who las time played in Jade. We gave him Phoenix honor deck before tourney and he finished 3-2 (Szyndler, Artur in the list) just becasue he remember overall flow of the game.

Sure... and who's to say you can't explain this game to a veteran L5R player in a few minutes. Keep taking my points and turning them in to some other argument, man. It's really helping your case. The point I made that you just keep dodging around is that you really do have to tell them new rules in order to play. Same with the LCG. No difference.

3 minutes ago, Sparks Duh said:

Sure... and who's to say you can't explain this game to a veteran L5R player in a few minutes. Keep taking my points and turning them in to some other argument, man. It's really helping your case. The point I made that you just keep dodging around is that you really do have to tell them new rules in order to play. Same with the LCG. No difference.

Sparks i know you're troll but i didn't know you're so huge you fit under bridge with difficulty. L5R changes (yes, they were here!) were cosmetic comparing to CCG > LCG transformation that made completely new game!

Just now, kempy said:

Sparks i know you're troll but i didn't know you're so huge you fit under bridge with difficulty. L5R changes were cosmetic comparing to CCG > LCG transformation that made completely new game!

I'm not trolling you, tho. I'm making fair points that you can't seem to grasp. I think there's a lot of similarities between the LCG and CCG. It isn't this entirely new game that you keep saying it is.

I completely understand that you didn't like the game even before any announcements came out as evident by your MANY posts in the last 2 years. Which is really sad. Because I enjoyed playing l5r with you in all those online tournaments we played in. But hey... if it's not the game you want to play, then nobody is forcing you to. And nobody is forcing you to keep coming on here and getting your ideology shot down every time you make a post either. You know I'm not a fan of the LCG format, but I'm honestly excited to buy in to this one. Why? Because it appears to have enough similarities to the old game AND a more streamlined rules structure. If the game is fun and balanced, I will be all over it. I'm still waiting to find out!

There were changes back then to the game yes, some changes were pretty major, but I don't think it is quite comparable. Now I look forward to the changes as it feels like an honest to Gods second edition of the old game. Where they could actually fix the problems with the old game without fear of any of the sacred cow aspects or even backwards compatibility (though that can be questionable with the old l5r as well). The point is they took the l5r found the essence of it, found its weaknesses and problems, and attempted to fix them. I hope that it will play as good as it looks in all honesty, but I'm optomistic as the changes I've seen so far show to me a love of the product and a want to respect the game.

I love the fact they kept the way it appears when layed out on the table, it will make it easier to teach to old veterans. There will be a few new things to teach for sure, but after one game i think a vet of the old l5r should have a handle on it based upon what I've seen and read so far. If that will actually be true once we have the full rulebook is another story, but here's to hoping.

On 4/21/2017 at 10:03 AM, VernonBroche said:

This is interesting. Can you explain why L5R is so important to you? I never knew people connected this deeply with it in the past, but I guess the setting expanded across a CCG, and PnP RPG and some other things?

If you go research for 'The Race for The Throne', it is one of those most memorable events for L5R players. I for one felt I was part of the community, part of the story too, I shared my skills, my time and my talents just for my clan to win the throne. I've met friends around the world. It goes not just for me, you'll see players representing the clan by dressing up during a kotei, and many more. There is a lot creativity going on. It was really interesting.

7 hours ago, Sparks Duh said:

Sure... and who's to say you can't explain this game to a veteran L5R player in a few minutes.

I must agree. So far, I think it should be relatively easy.

Not read all the posts in this thread, but keep in mind that typically 99% of a community doesn't say anything publicly. There is a vocal minority for most things and that can give the perception that something is wrong when often there isn't.

9 hours ago, Sparks Duh said:

I completely understand that you didn't like the game even before any announcements came out as evident by your MANY posts in the last 2 years. Which is really sad. Because I enjoyed playing l5r with you in all those online tournaments we played in. But hey... if it's not the game you want to play, then nobody is forcing you to. And nobody is forcing you to keep coming on here and getting your ideology shot down every time you make a post either. You know I'm not a fan of the LCG format, but I'm honestly excited to buy in to this one. Why? Because it appears to have enough similarities to the old game AND a more streamlined rules structure. If the game is fun and balanced, I will be all over it. I'm still waiting to find out!

It doesn't matter i like it or not, becasue all i wanted to say this game is just entirely different. Dissimilarity of gameplay, round structure, board state modifications and order of decision make this game much familiar to A Game of Thrones or Call of Cthulhu than Legend of the Five Rings CCG. I'm pretty sure that AGoT guys will have much easier task to learn this one, than L5R guys.

"Hey, you know how to win in this game? Win 4 any Challenges by this X number on your Faction card, gain 25 Power or reduce oponent's to 0. That's all."

Now try to explain AGoT guy how to win in old CCG.

At this point i can't see any experience from CCG that could pay in nL5R.

3 minutes ago, kempy said:

I'm pretty sure that AGoT guys will have much easier task to learn this one, than L5R guys.

Are not we the "L5R guys"? I do not consider myself particularily smart but never had issues learning L5R (or MtG, or V:TES, or 7th Sea, or Rage, etc). And having read what is available of the LCG version, and having never played or read AGoT, I think I have a pretty good idea of how it works. The framework seems quite simple but with lots of deep once you start scratching the surface.

Understanding the new L5R should not be a real issue for anyone. Liking the new systems or be willing to submerge themselves into its gameplay, are a whole different story.

I get to buy holdings and characters. I get to attack provinces. Have battles. Duels. Play actions, spells and such. I can gain or lose honor. Each clan has a single theme (altough I hope that with time a secondary one is added). Players can influence the story (yet to be seen exaclty how though).

imho