19 minutes ago, lumia2 said:

Pi Do Hui. Will you cut off my hair next? Please, let the public shaming begin.

Here lies lumia2.

Laid low by his own straw men.

R.I.P.

Do I dare to suggest Private Mail?

Maybe a deep breath?

Humble pie?

Relax, it is absolutely impossible to agree all the time with all the people in every topic.

Except that L5R is awesome.

2 minutes ago, Wintersong said:

Do I dare to suggest Private Mail?

Maybe a deep breath?

Humble pie?

Relax, it is absolutely impossible to agree all the time with all the people in every topic.

Except that L5R is awesome.

Smart idea, I agree. +1 Honor to you.

3 minutes ago, Wintersong said:

Relax, it is absolutely impossible to agree all the time with all the people in every topic.

Except that L5R is awesome.

You can't even get that much on an L5R Internet forum. =(

27 minutes ago, Kakita Shiro said:

You can't even get that much on an L5R Internet forum. =(

We cannot expect people, including myself, change behaviours just for being in this forum and we are all passionate about that in which we believe/love. While some venting may be ok, it is best if we avoid Hida Berserker levels (sorry, Crab friends!).

Now, someone make some fan art about the sides on this thread pillowfighting each other!!!

1 hour ago, Buttlord said:

Everyone? Always? The people who are raising the issue have been incredibly patient and civil even as they were characterized as shrill, irrational and angry

Both sides have handled this poorly. Both sides have shown themselves to be impatient and rude to the point of libel.

I think everyone needs to take a deep breath and walk away until they can handle this like adults.

12 minutes ago, PlaguedOne said:

Both sides have handled this poorly. Both sides have shown themselves to be impatient and rude to the point of libel.

To the point of libel, really? Hyperbole much? No, this is false equivalence and hogwash. We were/are having a reasonable discussion.

Moreover, I know the OP. The poster was trying to get an answer from FFG in multiple locations at once, perhaps not realizing that only his first post here would need to be validated. I assure you, the OP is not a troll. In fairness both the OP and FFG, they did issue an apology in response to this post on Facebook in a very professional manner. I hope this was a learning experience for all involved that will only serve to strengthen the game and the community moving forward.

10 minutes ago, A_to_the_C said:

To the point of libel, really? Hyperbole much? No, this is false equivalence and hogwash. We were/are having a reasonable discussion.

Is some of it reasonable discussion? Yeah. But certainly there are people who are not being reasonable.

I've seen at least once instance of someone claiming that another person made X statement but really meant Y. At the very least that sits poorly with me.

1 hour ago, PlaguedOne said:

Both sides have handled this poorly. Both sides have shown themselves to be impatient and rude to the point of libel.

This is not true. I went through the thread and found no examples of accusations or characterizations by any of the people who are raising the issue. Even if you dig up one or two, the others are so noticeable and frequent that you will probably not find enough to support your claim.

Edit: Kinzen and WHW, in particular, have been impressively cool about this.

6 hours ago, Doji Satevis said:

...shrill calls of "troll"...

My voice is rather deep actually.

6 hours ago, PlaguedOne said:

Both sides have handled this poorly. Both sides have shown themselves to be impatient and rude to the point of libel.

I think everyone needs to take a deep breath and walk away until they can handle this like adults.

When the subject is this controversial, there will always be a few people who lose their cool. That's completely expected. If we wait until every single person can have this conversation calmly, we'll never have the conversation at all.

But most people here have kept a level head, which is much better than I usually see with these discussions.

On 4/21/2017 at 4:58 PM, DarkHorse said:

I said it in another thread, there is nothing I don't like about that picture. And yeah, I think she looks very attractive in an "intimidating as hell, ruthlessly practical" sort of way.

I would hazard and guess and say it wasn't a desperate attempt. Her hair was getting in her way so she chopped it off with a knife, a purely functional decision.

I'd guess she had long(er) hair at some point, but cut it short mid fight as the most expedient option for whatever situation. If the goal was simply hair that doesn't get in the way, it's still long enough to get in eyes / face, and not all bound.

"Society can and does execute its own mandates: and if it issues wrong mandates instead of right, or any mandates at all in things with which it ought not to meddle, it practises a social tyranny more formidable than many kinds of political oppression, since, though not usually upheld by such extreme penalties, it leaves fewer means of escape, penetrating much more deeply into the details of life, and enslaving the soul itself.

Protection, therefore, against the tyranny of the magistrate is not enough: there needs protection also against the tyranny of the prevailing opinion and feeling; against the tendency of society to impose, by other means than civil penalties, its own ideas and practices as rules of conduct on those who dissent from them; to fetter the development, and, if possible, prevent the formation, of any individuality not in harmony with its ways, and compel all characters to fashion themselves upon the model of its own."

- John Stuart Mill

It's really not clear what you're trying to say. Obviously you're saying that someone is trying to "impose, by other means than civil penalties, [their] own ideas and practices as rules of conduct on those who dissent from them". But are you equating that with the people who called for FFG to apologize? Or the people claiming nobody should have been offended by the pillowfighting thing? Or the people calling for the deletion of the thread?

No offense, but that quote could be manipulated to support almost any point of view. Maybe you should just say what you mean in your own words.

On 21/4/2017 at 7:35 AM, C2K said:

There really is no chance for that. Even if FFG handles it "maturely", the internet won't. Its best it doesn't happen at all.

FFG has already maturely included a lesbian runner in the Android:Netrunner universe. Sunny Lebeau is married and has 2 children. She has never been objectified, and there hasn't been a problem that I remember.

Lately it has been discussed that another runner is a trans male, and the community is ok with that.

Alright, I'll post my thoughts. If I get too "political", keep in mind that OP opened those floodgates with their initial post.

Let me start by asking a few questions to anyone who's outraged at the "pillow fight" comment:

What if the original "pillow fight" comment was written by a lesbian. Would that change your opinion of it? What if it was written by a straight woman? Does that change the circumstance of your offense? How outraged would you be if the genders of the characters were reversed? If they kept Hoturi male, made Kachiko male, and then someone made the same "pillow fight" quip, would you be every bit as mad?

If any of these changes to the situation would have changed your response, then your anger is based on the gender of the participants or the characters, which is, itself, the very definition of sexism. By your own standards, you should be ashamed of yourselves. If your response to any of the above situations would have been the same, then I support the consistency of your moral outrage, but you might do better to channel that outrage into something more productive than trying to take anonymous people to task for innocuous comments.

In either circumstance, I suggest that you grow up. Sometimes people make jokes about retconned characters becoming lesbians. They shouldn't be tarred and feathered, or publicly shamed in the town square, or any of these other ridiculous social penalties that you're trying to attach to the action of "saying words that I personally disagree with". Stop trying to play Nazi word police with anyone who doesn't meet your narrow definitions of "acceptable speak". You'll make the world a much better place.

8 minutes ago, Nickciufi said:

Alright, I'll post my thoughts. If I get too "political", keep in mind that OP opened those floodgates with their initial post.

Let me start by asking a few questions to anyone who's outraged at the "pillow fight" comment:

What if the original "pillow fight" comment was written by a lesbian. Would that change your opinion of it? What if it was written by a straight woman? Does that change the circumstance of your offense? How outraged would you be if the genders of the characters were reversed? If they kept Hoturi male, made Kachiko male, and then someone made the same "pillow fight" quip, would you be every bit as mad?

If any of these changes to the situation would have changed your response, then your anger is based on the gender of the participants or the characters, which is, itself, the very definition of sexism. In either circumstance, I suggest that you grow up. Sometimes people make jokes about retconned characters becoming lesbians. They shouldn't be tarred and feathered, or publicly shamed in the town square, or any of these other ridiculous social penalties that you're trying to attach to the action of "saying words that I personally disagree with". Stop trying to play Nazi word police with anyone who doesn't meet your narrow definitions of "acceptable speak". You'll make the world a much better place.

I think this sort of misses the point a lot of people have made. They're not upset because some random person on the Internet said something they disagree with. They're upset that the random person said something on an official FFG topic, and the FFG engaged with the question in a way that many saw as inappropriate.

Some random person on the Internet saying something disagreeable is barely even worthy of an eye-roll. But when the company in charge of producing a game you enjoy decides to treat its characters in a less-than-respectful light in an official setting, it can be rather concerning...

7 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

I think this sort of misses the point a lot of people have made. They're not upset because some random person on the Internet said something they disagree with. They're upset that the random person said something on an official FFG topic, and the FFG engaged with the question in a way that many saw as inappropriate.

Some random person on the Internet saying something disagreeable is barely even worthy of an eye-roll. But when the company in charge of producing a game you enjoy decides to treat its characters in a less-than-respectful light in an official setting, it can be rather concerning...

You're missing MY point entirely. This is not considered a "less-than-respectful" light by many, many people, myself included. You talk about it like it's a foregone conclusion and that we all agree that it wasn't acceptable behavior. I vehemently disagree. Simply because a handful of people choose to take offense with it does not mean that it was, in and of itself, an offensive statement. The statement was totally fine. You guys are skipping over "was this offensive or not" and jumping right to "IN AN OFFICIAL FFG TOPIC".

Try changing the genders of the characters involved. Now they're both men, about to engage in a pillow fight. Are you still mad? If not, then your initial definition of what's "respectful" is irrational in the first place. Why is it OK to make pillow fight jokes about men, but not about women?

13 minutes ago, Nickciufi said:

Alright, I'll post my thoughts. If I get too "political", keep in mind that OP opened those floodgates with their initial post.

Let me start by asking a few questions to anyone who's outraged at the "pillow fight" comment:

What if the original "pillow fight" comment was written by a lesbian. Would that change your opinion of it? What if it was written by a straight woman? Does that change the circumstance of your offense? How outraged would you be if the genders of the characters were reversed? If they kept Hoturi male, made Kachiko male, and then someone made the same "pillow fight" quip, would you be every bit as mad?

If any of these changes to the situation would have changed your response, then your anger is based on the gender of the participants or the characters, which is, itself, the very definition of sexism. By your own standards, you should be ashamed of yourselves. If your response to any of the above situations would have been the same, then I support the consistency of your moral outrage, but you might do better to channel that outrage into something more productive than trying to take anonymous people to task for innocuous comments.

In either circumstance, I suggest that you grow up. Sometimes people make jokes about retconned characters becoming lesbians. They shouldn't be tarred and feathered, or publicly shamed in the town square, or any of these other ridiculous social penalties that you're trying to attach to the action of "saying words that I personally disagree with". Stop trying to play Nazi word police with anyone who doesn't meet your narrow definitions of "acceptable speak". You'll make the world a much better place.

A few disagreements:

1. Very few, if any, posters could be fairly described as "outraged" at the comments in question. Disappointed or concerned seem more accurate.

2. Telling someone that you thought something they said was sexist doesn't mean telling that person that they "should be ashamed of themselves" or that they're a bad person. It generally means that you want them to be more thoughtful of the implications of their words.

3. You're exaggerating the degree of social opprobrium being demanded. And saying you don't like something someone said doesn't mean you're playing "Nazi word police". Speaking up against behavior/speech you find objectionable is a pretty universal human characteristic.

1 minute ago, Yoritomo Reiu said:

A few disagreements:

1. Very few, if any, posters could be fairly described as "outraged" at the comments in question. Disappointed or concerned seem more accurate.

2. Telling someone that you thought something they said was sexist doesn't mean telling that person that they "should be ashamed of themselves" or that they're a bad person. It generally means that you want them to be more thoughtful of the implications of their words.

3. You're exaggerating the degree of social opprobrium being demanded. And saying you don't like something someone said doesn't mean you're playing "Nazi word police". Speaking up against behavior/speech you find objectionable is a pretty universal human characteristic.

Dictionary.com's definition of the word "ashamed":

feeling shame; distressed or embarrassed by feelings of guilt, foolishness, or disgrace:

Dictionary.com's definition of the word "shame":

the painful feeling arising from the consciousness of something dishonorable, improper, ridiculous, etc., done by oneself or another.

Telling someone you want them to "be more thoughtful of the implications of their words", by virtue of publicly referencing those words and your reaction to them, and subsequently asking for an official response from the company, is telling people they should be ashamed of themselves, by literal definition.

Men engaging in a pillow fight isn't an established "hot girl on hot girl" porn trope. It's the equivalent of the straight porn"saying *thanks* to a plumber". Not to say anything about fetishization of lesbian porn for consumption of straight male audience.

Again, this is a joke you can make freely with your friends, but this wasn't a situation like that. I find it ironic that L5R players don't see the difference between saying something in private and saying something in public while "wearing your clan mons". This is kinda how it might be acceptable in your circles to yell "I'm gonna fricking **** him!/I'm gonna **** him in the ass!" when you are playing multiplayer game and someone kills you and you get very excited about paying them back on the voice comms (by the way, language like this is the reason why a lot of people don't feel comfortable using voice comms in video games, it's actually a huge problem) with your friends is ok, but yelling something like that during a family dinner with your grandma might be not tolerable. Then again, I assume you are fine with the current president of the USA having such brilliant quotes as "grab them by the [female reproductive organs]" attributed to him? Then again, I suspect "boys will be boys" is something a lot of people I disagree here will subscribe to, so I'm not sure if I should continue this conversation at all.

I know that this being internet blurs things, but it wasn't friendly meeting between boys. It was a PR event. The fact that company apologized for it on Facebook should be telling enough. Just because physically no one here is moving out of safety and privacy of their rooms doesn't mean that the space we enter when we go into AMA isn't public. That's why in their apology, they were talking about being inclusive - allowing things like that make that space uninviting territory of The Boys Club.

4 minutes ago, Nickciufi said:

Telling someone you want them to "be more thoughtful of the implications of their words", by virtue of publicly referencing those words and your reaction to them, and subsequently asking for an official response from the company, is telling people they should be ashamed of themselves, by literal definition.

I disagree, and I think the definitions back me up. Telling someone that they should be ashamed is making a moral judgement about them. Saying "Whoa, dude... you probably shouldn't have said that" to someone isn't telling them they should feel shame.

Just now, Yoritomo Reiu said:

I disagree, and I think the definitions back me up. Telling someone that they should be ashamed is making a moral judgement about them. Saying "Whoa, dude... you probably shouldn't have said that" to someone isn't telling them they should feel shame.

You think wrong. But that's OK. It's the internet, and you're allowed to think wrong. Don't worry, I won't ask your company for an official response to your thoughts.

By your standard, we can't ever tell people about mistakes they're making without trying to shame them.

That's a self-evidently ridiculous standard, one that means that mistakes should never be pointed out because any pointing out of mistakes is shaming.

1 hour ago, Nickciufi said:

Try changing the genders of the characters involved. Now they're both men, about to engage in a pillow fight. Are you still mad? If not, then your initial definition of what's "respectful" is irrational in the first place. Why is it OK to make pillow fight jokes about men, but not about women?

I'm not mad in the first place (don't have any emotional investment in this at all, really), but I can try to field this one.

It depends on the context and the motivations behind the proposed pillow fight. I mean, there's nothing inherently objectionable about a pillow fight between two women. But there's an implied "hey, wouldn't it be hot if..." in this situation (I'm assuming there's no disagreement to the idea that most straight guys find lesbians hot). Like, there's a reason that Domojin didn't ask "Who do I have to bribe to get a card with Hotaru playing shogi with Kachiko?" The sexual undertones are obvious (and were obviously understood by whoever it was at FFG who replied) and that's what's being objected to, not the act of pillow fighting itself.

Edit for clarification: I should have been more explicit and said that it's the implication that two female characters should be portrayed for the sexual gratification of male players that is being objected to. "Sexual undertones" is too broad.

So, would the same people object to a pillow fight between two men? They would if the context and motivations were the same. I know that sounds unlikely, but there has actually been growing pushback against the fetishization of gay men by straight women (in slash fic and the like).

Now, to be perfectly honest, the exchange with FFG didn't personally bother me. But I can still understand the thought process in play for other people who were bothered by it.