Hi there,

So I couldn't find a great place to put this topic, so I figured the crystal ball section would be pretty good for this, as it could be a great learning experience for all involved. Sound great? Good, now let us begin!

So for reference, I speak about this incident that has been attached.

TL;DR someone asked for a possible card (here henceforth called "Pillowfight" created with Hotaru and Kachiko. Employee gave a terrible response, then edited terrible response, followed by deletion of the whole topic. People who saw were not happy with said responses.

Whether jokingly or not, the response from a FFG employee (I believe it was the Senior Assistant Art Director) responded with "No bribe necessary ;)". Now, I know a number of female friends that play this game and as soon as they saw that, they went from heartbroken, to livid, to rage of an angry God over this response. Can you blame them? I can't. That was a terrible response to an awful question.

After getting some negative feedback, someone edited to try and clarify that they had meant that it wasn't taken seriously. No apology was issued and the winky face was removed.

More negative feedback came and that is when Pillowfight was banned and deleted, there by sweeping the whole topic under the rug. There are plenty of screenshots of all this happening along with what I have attached, so please don't bother denying it.

What am I trying to accomplish with this topic? Well, I was hoping for more feedback from the company pertaining to this particular foul up. While the merits of your product may be good or not, this is going to discourage people from buying your game (especially the female player base. I can see them not wanting to have anything to do with your company after this particular incident.)

So what should one do in this particular situation? If it were me, I would offer a formal apology and attempt to start another feedback loop with those offended. That would help with positive image of the company and possibly correct the course here. Then again, I am not in charge, so whatever steps you can take to correct this course, I would act on it soon. These topics tend to catch on like fire with social media.

Really? Let's not take something that was clearly a joke and blow it out of proportion.

3 minutes ago, Silver Crane said:

Really? Let's not take something that was clearly a joke and blow it out of proportion.

But that exactly is some people's prefered sport!

Apparently, people are not allowed to make mistakes, including faulty communication. A bad joke was made, it was a mistake. Is forgiveness out of style these days?

troll account. troll post.
can a Mod please delete this and the user?

36 minutes ago, Hidatom said:

troll account. troll post.
can a Mod please delete this and the user?

Why? That looks like a legit ****-up to me and should warrant something more than just deleting the response and pretending it never happened.

This actually happened. It is on the Facebook group as well.

Mistakes like this shouldn't just be swept under the rug like it didn't happen. I can forgive that someone made a crass joke, but the poor PR response makes it much worse.

I just hope this fiasco doesn't discourage FFG from letting them have a romance, if that was their plan.

I expect the same people who got upset about the pillow fight would applaud that if it was tasteful.

31 minutes ago, Kakita Shijin said:

I just hope this fiasco doesn't discourage FFG from letting them have a romance, if that was their plan.

I expect the same people who got upset about the pillow fight would applaud that if it was tasteful.

All joking aside, it'd be refreshing for them to go this route if only because certain elements at AEG seemed intent on specifically making sure a same-sex relationship was never depicted, despite some of our best efforts (sorry Natsuyo and Fuyuko!)

Strangely, an attempt to give the Scorpion a male geisha/ninja character appeared to meet with similar resistance. The geisha aspect of his character was expunged with no explanation given.

This may be Mr Merholtz's first post on these boards, but he's certainly not a troll, and he presents his topic calmly and articulately. I'm certainly not seeing a reason for it to be deleted.

Honestly, I still think the entire issue is that big of a deal, and that it is nothing to get upset about.

8 minutes ago, Silver Crane said:

Honestly, I still think the entire issue is that big of a deal, and that it is nothing to get upset about.

Okay, that's fine, but isn't it good to talk about this stuff anyway? I personally want L5R to be inclusive and this provides a good opportunity to discuss what we (community and FFG both) can do to make that a reality.

(One suggestion I'd give would be not making cringeworthy off-hand jokes fetishizing lesbians.)

I've had my fair share of pillow fights.
Some I won, some I lost, but in the end, there was much laughing and fun had by all.

Of course nobody ever made a card of my exploits, but that's their loss.

A card with two characters goofing around hardly seems problematic.
(outside of the problem of something silly happening in an otherwise serious cardgame)

Reintroducing Kachiko into the storyline faces a serious challenge of her legacy of fetishization and problematic tropes surrounding her. It's one of the things I hope they will handle well, and I hope that her new incarnation will focus more on being a crafty politician, and less as a sex object that also happens to be a crafty politician. I don't think we are going to get a repeat of the Way of the Scorpion and it's treatment of women, so I suspect that the harsh reaction here was due to possiblity of story team wanting to distance Kachiko from being a fetish object.

Anyway, I don't mind some pillowfighting as long as it's done in good taste. For both genders, to be clear. Kakita duel of stances that makes both handsome duelist progressively less clothed is a running joke in our rpg group :P.

I don't see an issue with this. Hopefully the employee who responded doesn't get in trouble and is encouraged to continue being able to joke and interact with the community.

This is RIDICULOUS, this post is way worse than the 4 words that were replied, just screams over reaction, and is simply looking to incite even poorer behavior from the community. If that managed to actually hurt someone's feelings, that person may want to seriously consider getting some professional help.

Perhaps you are trying to make the rest of the community pay by making them consider not telling us anything lest they say something that might upset your delicate sensibilities.

just wow...

9 minutes ago, Daigotsu Kai'Sen said:

I don't see an issue with this. Hopefully the employee who responded doesn't get in trouble and is encouraged to continue being able to joke and interact with the community.

Basically, fetishization of female characters and fetishization of lesbian erotica for the benefit of male audience. Add the fact that Kachiko carries a lot of baggage, and you get a very dangerous ground to tread on
If you wonder why it makes women uncomfortable, assuming that you are straight male: imagine going to a Marvel related event, and suddenly finding yourself exposed to fandom fetishization of Captain America x Iron Man, with pictures attached and people around cheering for it and talking semi-dirty about it. Though this still isn't a perfect comparison, because men aren't sexualized and fetishized in the same way as women do.

25 minutes ago, WHW said:

Reintroducing Kachiko into the storyline faces a serious challenge of her legacy of fetishization and problematic tropes surrounding her. It's one of the things I hope they will handle well, and I hope that her new incarnation will focus more on being a crafty politician, and less as a sex object that also happens to be a crafty politician. I don't think we are going to get a repeat of the Way of the Scorpion and it's treatment of women, so I suspect that the harsh reaction here was due to possiblity of story team wanting to distance Kachiko from being a fetish object.

Anyway, I don't mind some pillowfighting as long as it's done in good taste. For both genders, to be clear. Kakita duel of stances that makes both handsome duelist progressively less clothed is a running joke in our rpg group :P.

IIRC, was't there some controversy with this image of Kachiko back in the AEG days too?

Had a crazy thought that would likely never happen: What if a Scorpion wanted to troll the Crane and decided to use pillows when challenged in a duel?

11 minutes ago, WHW said:

Basically, fetishization of female characters and fetishization of lesbian erotica for the benefit of male audience. Add the fact that Kachiko carries a lot of baggage, and you get a very dangerous ground to tread on
If you wonder why it makes women uncomfortable, assuming that you are straight male: imagine going to a Marvel related event, and suddenly finding yourself exposed to fandom fetishization of Captain America x Iron Man, with pictures attached and people around cheering for it and talking semi-dirty about it. Though this still isn't a perfect comparison, because men aren't sexualized and fetishized in the same way as women do.

Except that is an extreme example below. The post was a simple joking answer to a simple joking question. I do have women in our gaming group, and multiple female friends whom I am going to ask about this tomorrow to get varying opinions, but being a straight male, I take no offense whatsoever when I hear them talk about what they would like to see captain america and thor do together. Why? Because its joking around and having fun.

Man, have you felt a Japanese buckwheat pillow? Those things probably hit for k3!

In all seriousness, the question was in poor taste, the initial answer was in poor taste, and the walkback wasn't handled that well. But I am glad that FFG did walk it back, and I have my fingers crossed that they handle same-sex relationships better than AEG did. I tried to write the existence of m/m relationships into one of the late 4e RPG books (because they were definitely a thing in historical Japan), but it got cut.

Yeah, but you are private people joking in your private circle. That wasn't a friend joking with friends. It was an PR event, where they weren't representing themselves as individuals, but were wearing mons of their company, so to speak. While the fact that it's internet and stuff makes it seem "private", it's like hosting a press conference, honestly. @Kinzen could probably explain it more eloquently.

3 minutes ago, Daigotsu Kai'Sen said:

Except that is an extreme example below. The post was a simple joking answer to a simple joking question. I do have women in our gaming group, and multiple female friends whom I am going to ask about this tomorrow to get varying opinions, but being a straight male, I take no offense whatsoever when I hear them talk about what they would like to see captain america and thor do together. Why? Because its joking around and having fun.

Speaking from the female side of things, it's easier to take "joking around and having fun" when it isn't so frequently happening at your own expense. Kind of like how a rich person may enjoy slumming it for a day more than a poor person enjoys having that as their daily existence.

21 minutes ago, muzouka said:

Had a crazy thought that would likely never happen: What if a Scorpion wanted to troll the Crane and decided to use pillows when challenged in a duel?

Well you can still smother with a pillow. I could think of several ways to create special pillows specifically for combat. Maybe stronger material to catch blades, or put them off guard then stab with the knife hidden in the pillow.

Generally, I hope that both Hotaru and Kachiko will end up as characters that, after reading their exploits, you feel like "wow, that's someone I would want to be!" instead of "wow, that's someone I would want to do!", to be blunt.

And acknowledging the question, AND giving it the answer that was given, puts emphasis and priority on the second thing. Get what I mean?

Just now, WHW said:

Generally, I hope that both Hotaru and Kachiko will end up as characters that, after reading their exploits, you feel like "wow, that's someone I would want to be!" instead of "wow, that's someone I would want to do!", to be blunt.

This. I am so very tired of female characters where the latter is Priority Number One -- and also Priorities Number Two Through Five -- with everything else an afterthought. If they're going to be sexy, I want them to be sexy the way male characters get to be, i.e. via being awesome .