And if so, is it any good?

I'm just thinking about my last game where I faced 3 Neb-bs and realized that upgrade would have been a complete waste except at long range. Seems like some kind of Mon Karren... but accuracies aren't as good..?? It's kind of like X-I7 as well? I'm confused.

You have to Pile on huge amounts of damage, and let them have a choice of what to spend.

And by Huge, I mean, regularily throwing 8+

I've only had it work with an ISD-I with Ion Cannon Batteries and HTTs... Stripping the shield and forcing hull Damage if they Brace alone, or dropping 2 Shield facings completley if they brace + redirect.

Is it better than XI7? Not at the moment. When (and if) the XI7/AP ruling is reversed, HTTs gain a little ground - but only through XI7s losing a little ground (which they already lost through H9s).

In short.

I like 'em.

Probably makes them crap by association, though

They're good on black/red dice combination ships where you're unlikely to get an accuracy but likely to be doing lots of damage you don't want messed with (much).

At the moment they're not really that great. Flotillas give black/red ships trouble already and the ones that show up nowadays usually have some kind of accuracy or counter-flotilla fix (like H9s, Captain Jonus, the Home One title, or an Intel Officer) that works contrary to the HTTs intended use of "screw it, it's just a bunch of damage and I don't care about accuracy."

I used them a few times on VSDI and ISDI and from my experience XI7 are more useful in overall. HTT have more style, though.

They aren't all bad, but generally speaking you'll always get more mileage out of other upgrades. So meh.

7 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

They aren't all bad, but generally speaking you'll always get more mileage out of other upgrades. So meh.

plus their cost...

I used a lot cause my lack of xi7 and it always worked for me.

As @Drasnighta said, you need a minimum of damage. It is pretty effective for ships without many accuracies and against ship with ECM as xi7.

In fact the effect ends being the same, or a bit better but xi7 has the advantage of stacking with accuracies.

So:

1. You need at least 4 damage as average in order to push your opponent into a "hard" decission.

2. You don't want or are not interested on accuracies. Let's say SW7

3. You don't have so many accuracies. Lets say ISD1 or VSD1. It could be any ship shooting just red dice but then you hardly get the 4 average damage.

4. Your accuracies (the little amount of them) are usually useless. Let's say ECM.

5. You want to shoot non shielded hulls with heavy shielded adjacent hulls.

At the end it us not a bad upgrade but is not the best. It is not the most expensive either.

It is opportunity cost. Like with Mon Karren, they are EXCELLENT upgrades if you are hunting ISDIIs or MC80s, and fairly good upgrades if you are hunting AFIIs, or a Tua / ECM'd VSD or Interdictor.

The problem is, while they are strictly better than XI7 for Large ECM ships, and marginally better for medium ships, they are worse for things like MC30s. They are worse than H9 Turbos for things that don't have ECM.

So in short, let's say I did a 8 dmg attack. Enemy has brace + redirect

Enemy uses brace only. Reduces to 4 on 1 shield zone, it's basically like using XI-7 but I only exhausted 1 token

Enemy braces and redirects: 7 damage on 2 hull zones. Decent attack, 2 tokens exhausted.

Accuracies are kind of worthless now. If I get one and use it on the brace, I paid for HTT for no reason. If I get one and use it on the redirect, brace still takes effect.

If the enemy has an evade and a brace (say, a Neb-B). I roll 7 damage, which is, I don't know, 5 normal hit and 1 double hit with a red.

Using brace only: reduces dmg to 4

Using brace and evade to remove the double hit: reduces damage to 4.

not sure if it's ever useful. H9 seems better all the time. Like you guys said, it's good against ECM. That's it. Intel officer is better even in that case

7 hours ago, Drasnighta said:

Ion Cannon Batteries and HTTs...

Hmmmm......

Against ships with no brace (all those TR90s, Admonitions, and Flotillas): No effect

Against ships with brace, but no redirect or contain (Raiders and Nebs): No effect.

Against ships with brace and redirect: You push more damage to the target hull zone than with X17, but they will redirect if you throw a weak attack

Against a ship with brace and contain: You force them into an awkward place once shields are down. They have to take a crit or full damage.

It is... ok. Just not as universally useful as X17.

1 hour ago, Ardaedhel said:

Hmmmm......

sounds weird to me as well

1 hour ago, Sybreed said:

sounds weird to me as well

No, I can kind of see where he's going with it, actually. Helps penetrate the facing zone faster, discourages redirect... yeah, I can see it. I at least like the idea, though not sure the math holds up.

I will add it does have some definite uses against double-brace ships like Nebulon-Bs and LMC80s. Given neither is really tearing up the competitive scene right now, that's of limited use.

My Raiders really don't like getting shot with them when there's a large salvo at long range but that admittedly doesn't happen often. The few times it has it has made them a bit sad.

I can't help but feel like FFG wanted to debuff brace tokens somehow but realized they may have gone a bit too far with XI7s so they tightened the leash a bit too much on HTTs. If it had simply been something like "when an opponent spends a brace token against an attack made by this ship, add one damage to the total (after it is halved)" then it would actually be really handy for slightly debuffing braces and particularly so in instances where you're dealing 5 or less damage (as it would dramatically reduce or eliminate the bonus from bracing). Ah well.

52 minutes ago, Snipafist said:

I will add it does have some definite uses against double-brace ships like Nebulon-Bs and LMC80s. Given neither is really tearing up the competitive scene right now, that's of limited use.

My Raiders really don't like getting shot with them when there's a large salvo at long range but that admittedly doesn't happen often. The few times it has it has made them a bit sad.

I can't help but feel like FFG wanted to debuff brace tokens somehow but realized they may have gone a bit too far with XI7s so they tightened the leash a bit too much on HTTs. If it had simply been something like "when an opponent spends a brace token against an attack made by this ship, add one damage to the total (after it is halved)" then it would actually be really handy for slightly debuffing braces and particularly so in instances where you're dealing 5 or less damage (as it would dramatically reduce or eliminate the bonus from bracing). Ah well.

That is a turbolaser I'm much more likely to take, though that probably means it's better and needs to be more expensive. I definitely agree it comes off as a card intended to XI7s for brace, but a touch less.

I think you're wrong. HTT isn't aimed directly at brace, but at ships with a full array of tokens. It just isn't quite good enough/correctly costed, and it certainly fails in the opportunity cost department.

5 hours ago, BiggsIRL said:

It is opportunity cost. Like with Mon Karren, they are EXCELLENT upgrades if you are hunting ISDIIs or MC80s, and fairly good upgrades if you are hunting AFIIs, or a Tua / ECM'd VSD or Interdictor.

The problem is, while they are strictly better than XI7 for Large ECM ships, and marginally better for medium ships, they are worse for things like MC30s. They are worse than H9 Turbos for things that don't have ECM.

How is HTT an excellent upgrade on Mon Karren? The defender can spend one defense token anyway so if he decides on brace he won't be able to spend any other token meaning HTTs hurting effect will never trigger. In fact it's the most pointless upgrade you could take with Mon Karren...

Just now, Norell said:

How is HTT an excellent upgrade on Mon Karren? The defender can spend one defense token anyway so if he decides on brace he won't be able to spend any other token meaning HTTs hurting effect will never trigger. In fact it's the most pointless upgrade you could take with Mon Karren...

Mistake of Wording

Comparing HTT *to* Mon Karren, rather than *ON* Mon Karren

Ahh... my bad, sorry

7 hours ago, Green Knight said:

I think you're wrong. HTT isn't aimed directly at brace, but at ships with a full array of tokens. It just isn't quite good enough/correctly costed, and it certainly fails in the opportunity cost department.

You can certainly credibly make that argument, but the specificity of the brace makes me view it as a brace-debuff. If HTTs triggered on multiple defense tokens being spent (regardless of which 2+) to produce some kind of "punish" effect, they'd be a lot more all-purpose, which would also make them better.

2 minutes ago, Snipafist said:

You can certainly credibly make that argument, but the specificity of the brace makes me view it as a brace-debuff. If HTTs triggered on multiple defense tokens being spent (regardless of which 2+) to produce some kind of "punish" effect, they'd be a lot more all-purpose, which would also make them better.

But look at the Neb. At long rang, possibly medium range also, there is some benefit to HTT. Some, but not a lot. Certainly not enough to take it over any other upgrade.

Raider is the same, except the reversal of evade to brace ratio.

Vs Liberty. Yes, there is a slight benefit in denying the redirect, but this is accomplished nearly as well with XI7. And XI7 is far more useful in other situations.

So the only tangible benefit IMO is vs ships like the BSD, the AF, and the Pelta. Things that don't have evade, not so much. Maybe Needa ISD/Dictor could fit in there.

Keep in mind that HTT arrived in wave 2. before the XI7 interaction with AP was fully settled. Maybe FFG didn't realize how OP MC30s with AP would be against everything if they didn't nerf XI7? Which kind of let HTT out in the cold?

It's just speculation oc, but whenever I think about HTT, I start thinking about XI7, AP and MC30s.

I'd much rather have my opponent use a Redirect than a Brace. Since Acc and HTT have anti-synergy, they are garbage IMO. Brace removes damage. Redirect moves damage. If I can drop 1 or 2 hulls to 0 shields, it means I have more arcs I want to be shooting at.

If an ISD rolls 8 damage, do you really want to spend 6 points and watch half your damage disappear? Using an Accs drops the effectiveness of HTT since you are making the decision for your opponent on which defense tokens they can use. Or you take XI7 for 7 points, and Acc the Brace. Then you have 8 damage being pushed into your target.

I do think large batteries are the worst for HTT since you don't want to lose any damage. I think a better choice would be Arqs and AFs since they can produce just enough damage to be annoying. So your opponent can use Brace inefficiently to drop 3-4 damage to 2, but can't Redirect. But at that point, I'd rather take TRC on either so I guarantee damage, and I get the same inefficient Brace.

Another problem with spending 6 points is you limit what ships you want to shoot at. You get no benefit against MC30s and CR90s, Raiders at close, flotillas, and Arqs. If I want to limit how my opponent spends defense tokens, I'll spend 8 points and take H9.

I see some usage on MC30s. Maybe Ackbar+HTT+OE+APT? That's a lot of dice to take in one arc, and you already have the +1 damage from APT so it makes up for the damage lost from the Brace. And you might get lucky and drop some shields and then they take the rest of the damage to the hull. Attacking ships with ECM is also a great way to use HTT. Since you don't care about Accs, taking SW-7 will bump your damage output, and you make ECM useless.

If HTT was 3 points, I'd probably use it.

5 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

I'd much rather have my opponent use a Redirect than a Brace. Since Acc and HTT have anti-synergy, they are garbage IMO. Brace removes damage. Redirect moves damage. If I can drop 1 or 2 hulls to 0 shields, it means I have more arcs I want to be shooting at.

If an ISD rolls 8 damage, do you really want to spend 6 points and watch half your damage disappear? Using an Accs drops the effectiveness of HTT since you are making the decision for your opponent on which defense tokens they can use. Or you take XI7 for 7 points, and Acc the Brace. Then you have 8 damage being pushed into your target.

I do think large batteries are the worst for HTT since you don't want to lose any damage. I think a better choice would be Arqs and AFs since they can produce just enough damage to be annoying. So your opponent can use Brace inefficiently to drop 3-4 damage to 2, but can't Redirect. But at that point, I'd rather take TRC on either so I guarantee damage, and I get the same inefficient Brace.

Another problem with spending 6 points is you limit what ships you want to shoot at. You get no benefit against MC30s and CR90s, Raiders at close, flotillas, and Arqs. If I want to limit how my opponent spends defense tokens, I'll spend 8 points and take H9.

I see some usage on MC30s. Maybe Ackbar+HTT+OE+APT? That's a lot of dice to take in one arc, and you already have the +1 damage from APT so it makes up for the damage lost from the Brace. And you might get lucky and drop some shields and then they take the rest of the damage to the hull. Attacking ships with ECM is also a great way to use HTT. Since you don't care about Accs, taking SW-7 will bump your damage output, and you make ECM useless.

If HTT was 3 points, I'd probably use it.

another case of an overpriced upgrade and that reinforces my wish for an errata pack for all that's wrong with Armada upgrade wise

10 minutes ago, Sybreed said:

another case of an overpriced upgrade and that reinforces my wish for an errata pack for all that's wrong with Armada upgrade wise

I see we basically said the same thing hahaha. I have the bad habit of reading the OP and responding before reading what everyone else says so I don't have a bias. But since multiple people are coming to the same conclusion, it kind of says just how bad this upgrade is.

3 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

I see we basically said the same thing hahaha. I have the bad habit of reading the OP and responding before reading what everyone else says so I don't have a bias. But since multiple people are coming to the same conclusion, it kind of says just how bad this upgrade is.

it was a bit more implied in my case. I made some scenarios in which HTT is compared to other upgrades, and I just don't see why anyone would use it. IO, XI-7, H9 are just all around better for less.