3 hours ago, Mirith said:

I did not know this, but I was wondering people's experience with the system too. I am personally put off by the new dice, but it is not the worst thing in the world and it can make sense (You can always make your own by defining numbers as symbols, etc). Usually when I talk to people about these things, which is why I say I may be skewed, FFG RPGs never come up, but we may all be unwilling to try the new thing either.

The FFG system is a very great, smooth narrative-based system, far more concerned about storytelling than simulationism (with crunch to keep the power-gamers busy during their down times). It certainly would handle raises easier than the roll and keep system.

1 hour ago, AsakoDaihmon said:

Honestly, I think they can take something else CGL has done with Shadowrun and have the reporting system for their living world.

Currently they have new modules & story progression released for SR supplements with PDF story session report logs. They take the feedback of how story progressed at both big conventions and home game play, take the best ideas and progress the story in that manner.

RPG affecting story was only really done well - I feel - through the PbP Winter Court boards (still have some of my writing on canonized on those stories) and could have done so much more with it.

I thought the Winter Court sessions were a great idea, though need to be carefully managed. However, it also depends on how you play the game.

3 minutes ago, Gaffa said:

The FFG system is a very great, smooth narrative-based system, far more concerned about storytelling than simulationism

I dunno, but things like individual weapon maintenance (the worst that remained for me from my Gadgeeter career) and all those D100 tables (WHY?) are surely off-putting when it comes to storytelling-over-crunch. In fact, I'm hard pressed right now to remember a single truly narrative mechanic from the game (maybe Careful Planning and Utility Belt?) other than the special dice results (that can be translated to simple crunch anyway).

I personally prefer a bit more crunch. Numenera has one of the best character creation systems I've ever seen, but its actual game play systems lacked any sort of variance, as well as feeling costly to be cool. It was supposed to be story driven, but sort of fell flat.

Looking at their card game mechanics, I think it would be smart of them to include Honor and Fate as mechanics in the RPG too. I wouldn't mind a game where you use these to "fix" your results, forcing you to make decisions and sacrifices. Having a way to spit in the face of narrative dice and forge your own path looks like it would also fix the complaints about dice derailing the story.

Cool thing you could do about limited resources used to activate effects and fix roll results is that *refueling them* would be important, and you could reinforce certain elements of Samurai life using your crunch to make roleplaying and narrative stronger. Give that duelist a reason to spend 4 hours a day training by giving them Focus tokens for it (so when they got poisoned and can't train before an important duel, it hits their resources, so you can *feel that being out of practice is bad*). Reward the honorable Lion for being honorable Lion by giving them Honor tokens, which then are burned to make sure that they remain bloodied but unbowed.

You could play with it by either introducing different resources for different concepts, or keeping the resource same for everyone but giving different people (Clans, for example) different preffered ways to replenish their fuel tank.

5 hours ago, AtoMaki said:

You are not very familiar with the SW character creation/advancement, are you?

Not dedicatedly no, but I have played a few Force and Destiny games that lasted a few months a piece. But that's what I mean by "a la carte." In Force and Destiny you more or less set your abilities at character creation, but the rest of the time you have to choose between skill (skills), technique (your career tree), or magic (Force powers). You can put a lot of your experience into one of them, divide it out among all three, or any combination thereof. The player chooses and there really is no wrong choice because they all advance your character as opposed to L5R where only certain purchases advance your character (by which I mean give you insight and advance your Rank).

When they give me weird dice like FFG RPGs tend to do. I want at least see fortune and wind dice utilized.

2 hours ago, SonofScarlet said:

Not dedicatedly no, but I have played a few Force and Destiny games that lasted a few months a piece. But that's what I mean by "a la carte." In Force and Destiny you more or less set your abilities at character creation, but the rest of the time you have to choose between skill (skills), technique (your career tree), or magic (Force powers). You can put a lot of your experience into one of them, divide it out among all three, or any combination thereof. The player chooses and there really is no wrong choice because they all advance your character as opposed to L5R where only certain purchases advance your character (by which I mean give you insight and advance your Rank).

Not sure I follow what you are trying to say here?

I have played both game from start to high level L5R(rank 4-5) and SWFFG(1250+ xp). From this xp as a GM/PC and from feedback from my PC I have found.

Traits/Characteristics

In L5R you can raise this stat with xp

In SWFFG it can only be raised by reaching the bottom level of your tree.

Results:

L5R: Characters balanced for what they are (bushi,shujenga,etc)

SWFFG: Front loaded characters with little in the way of skills

Skills/Skills

In L5R you can raise this stat with xp and provide special bonuses at advancing levels.

In SWFFG you can raise this stat with xp which effects nothing but the skill and provide nothing beyond dice number.

Results:

L5R: skills become very importent due to there conection to your school and the bonuses they add

SWFFG: skills are skills and add nothing to your career.

Magic/Force Powers

In L5R You can gain spells from research/copying scrolls or gaining school level

In SWFFG you can only gain or improve you Powers by xp.

Results:

L5R: Magical advancement gains both a cinematic and mechanical aspect to it and provides a sense of accomplishment.

SWFFG: Magical advancement is pure mechanical and is just another stat to raise.

School/Career

In L5R your school advancement is directly connected to you skill/trait level so for you to get better you must become more skilled.

In SWFFG your Career can get better without raising you skills, which makes little or no sense to me.

Results:

L5R: your character feels like he is growing gradually in to a great samurai and that all his xp has led him there.

SWFFG: you career feels like just another stat pool to choose from and that his career has little to no connection to the rest of his growth.

Multiclassing

In L5R most Multiclassing is handled cinematically, where you tell a story of how you where excepted into the school, and has few restriction on what you can be excpet that you can't be a bushi and a shugenja.

In SWFFG you pay a penalty to multiclass outside you career. this is for the most part just a mechanical tool to prevent power-gaming.

Results:

L5R: gives a more natural cinematic feel to Multiclassing and allows for greater flexibility in character design.

SWFFG: is just a waste of hard gained xp to push a liner dynamic.

Mechanics

In L5R the gm sets a TN bases on: Base TN, bonuses, and players abilities which give the GM/PC a good solid idea of how hard the task will be. the dice just give results and the PC/GM is free to tell the story as they see fit.

In SWFFG the the GM gives the player dice to set the difficulty, which due to the randomness can lead to the results being harder or easier then the GM planed. dice determine all results including the story in this game.

Results:

L5R: this "classic" (for lack of a better word) mechanic give the GM a solid idea of how hard the task is and allows for IMHO better challenge design in the adventure. The result design leaves the storytelling in in the hands of the GM/PC and IMHO is better for exp PC and GM.

SWFFG: The mechanic in SWFFG seems more random and can lead to a task being harder or easier that intended. This can cause issues when a result that was intended to be challenging but doable becomes impossible due to uneven dice rolling (OK/average positive results/ very high negative results). Where the L5R system leaves the stroytelling to the GM/PC the SWFFG system creates the narrative for them in a sense which can be both good and bad. Where it does help new players invision what is happening, it can also derail the vision of what the GM/PC want to happen.

Dice

In L5R you use up to 10 D10. easy to come by for most gamers and cheap to get if you don't have then if you don't get to fancy(about $5 for ten). In the game it is easy for everyone to figure out the results. example: 4+6+12=22

In SWFFG you are required to use specialty dice (you can use the chart but it slows the game). to have a good play set for one player you are looking at around $28. In the game the results can be hard for inexperienced players to figure out. example: T+S+S+F+C= S ?

Results:

L5R: Say what you will math is math and 1+1= 2 is an easy concept to grasp. On the cost side the game use dice that most if not all gamers already have or can get cheap. For storytelling the system allow the GM/PC the freedom to tell the story they want and not be limited by the dice.

SWFFG: New and old player alike will find the symbol system hard to grasp at first. On cost the buy-in is high for new and old players. While the aspect of the dice helping to tell the story is nice for new players it can seriously get in the way of experienced players.

Final Results

L5R: While L5R 4th ED is not perfect I find it to be the better of the two systems(IMHO)

SWFFG: The game seem disjointed in areas and seems to cater to new players. Some of the rules seem to be there just to fix problem that at least to me are not problem. The dice system also seems to have been created just to sell dice that you can only get from them. Overall I am not a fan.

P.S. These are my opinions and not hard facts. I am not in anyway trying to say that if you like SWFFG you are wrong.

I'm surprised you have seen skills as important. In general, unless you are gunning for a specific skill mastery, points beyond 1 or 2 in a skill are very inefficient buys. They tend to be overshadowed by much stronger and efficient Trait buys, which also have certain side effects like making Courtiers masters of warfare by making them awesome at the optimal way to fight, which is with a bow and not being hit. This actually includes Shugenja being "Anything you can do Shugenja can do better", as they get their spells for free alongside bumping their Traits and Rings, which leads them to excel both at mundane pursuits *and* magical things.

By the way, people constantly talk about making L5R themed dice and how awesome they would be. The thing is, they already exist! We own a full set. But they sold so badly (at least here), that we were literally asked by shops if we know anyone who want to buy them because they want to get rid of them and no one is buying.

Now that, that is finished on to more important things.

What I would like to see in a 5th ED.

I will say it again 4th is not perfect. To me it fix a lot of issues with 3rd but caused some of its own, and also dropped some good ideas from 3rd that should have been kept. Here is my good bad list for both.

3rd ED

Pros

1. Skill Mastery.-Finally gave PC's a reason to invest in skills without killing Traits

2. Weapon Special rule -gave flavor to weapons and a reason to use weapons other then a katana when called for. Weapons had flavor both mechanically and in the text.

3. fluid initiative system. if you don't get hit your score goes up so you can defend and wait for and opening to attack

4. flowing school system. alternative paths had links back to your school or to another school

Cons

1. school blot

2. to many skills need to function in some careers

3. to many advantages/disadvantages.

4. spell casting was to weak

5. some really over powered schools/paths (Mirumoto Swordsman I'm looking at you)

4th ED

Pros

1. fewer schools. got rid of the blot and some of the over powered paths

2. cleaner over all system

3. better life expectancy in combat. the x5 for the first rank helped a lot

4. stronger spell casting (Maho still needs some help though)

5. less skills and more synergy with the schools

6. less advantages/disadvantages. and a disadvantages is truly a disadvantages.

Cons

1. stagnant initiative system. if you don't get to go first you spend void or your out of luck.

2. flat school system. alternative paths now replace parts of your school

3. weapons flavor gone. all weapons except Katanas are just damage numbers now. and with no reach pole-arms are just useless

As you can see most of the Pros for 4th are Cons for 3rd and most of the Cons are Pros for 3rd. so a mix of the two would fix a lot of the issues. Not all of them of course. There are more issues that both edition had in common (see below)

Other Issues

The Ring/Trait issues: As it currently stands to raise a ring you have to raise both traits. this can lead to Shujenga having Traits that make no sense to get the ring for there spells where they need it.

Fix ideas: 1) take the average of the two traits to get the ring, 2) divorce spell casting from the rings and have a Spell rank, Example: take the average of all rings + Affinity or - Deficiency.

Raises issues: Currently Raises are an all or nothing gamble and , only rewards a good roll if you bet on it to happen. This lead to them not being use a lot and maneuvers almost never being used.

Fix ideas: Keep the current rules but, add that if you beat the roll by a large number you get the effect of a raise. Example: TN +10= 1 raise and every 5 after that adds another raise. This takes into account that you where not expecting the result but where able to capitalize on the good roll.

Defense Issues: Where I understand Full Defense not allowing and action Defense seems to have to much of a cost for its effect. This has lead to it only being used by Shujenga since they can cast while in the stance.

Fix ideas: My fix on this would be simple, you can attack while in Defense stance but suffer a TN penalty to the attack. Example: while in Defensive Stance attacks suffer a +5TN penalty.

Skill Issues: Skill mastery is still under-powered and lacking on some skills

Fix ideas: Skills without need and some skills with need more powerful masteries

With the mixing of 4th and 3rd, and the edition of these other fixes I feel we could have a great game in the end.

9 minutes ago, WHW said:

I'm surprised you have seen skills as important. In general, unless you are gunning for a specific skill mastery, points beyond 1 or 2 in a skill are very inefficient buys. They tend to be overshadowed by much stronger and efficient Trait buys, which also have certain side effects like making Courtiers masters of warfare by making them awesome at the optimal way to fight, which is with a bow and not being hit. This actually includes Shugenja being "Anything you can do Shugenja can do better", as they get their spells for free alongside bumping their Traits and Rings, which leads them to excel both at mundane pursuits *and* magical things.

see my 5th edition run-down. Addressed this issues

Quote

By the way, people constantly talk about making L5R themed dice and how awesome they would be. The thing is, they already exist! We own a full set. But they sold so badly (at least here), that we were literally asked by shops if we know anyone who want to buy them because they want to get rid of them and no one is buying.

? are you talking about the dice with the clan symbol for the 10?

Actually, Shugenja having to raise both stats in a Ring makes a lot of sense, because in Eastern philosophy, you need to balance physical with spiritual. That's why Rings are split into two stats, and why you gain a power up after upping both of them.

As for math, eh, it sounds easy for people who find it easy, but it isn't easy for everyone. I hate manually rolling my L5R dice and prefer using an app (or asking someone to roll for me when we are away from a computer), because I find having to mentally add up to 6 or 7 dice slow and taxing. Grabbing symbols and not having to do math would speed it up for me like 10 times. And I'm a person who spends hours per day crunching and system-brewing, so it's not just a lack of practice.

Yeah, the D10s that come with their clan's color and symbol as a 10.

10 minutes ago, WHW said:

Actually, Shugenja having to raise both stats in a Ring makes a lot of sense, because in Eastern philosophy, you need to balance physical with spiritual. That's why Rings are split into two stats, and why you gain a power up after upping both of them.

As for math, eh, it sounds easy for people who find it easy, but it isn't easy for everyone. I hate manually rolling my L5R dice and prefer using an app (or asking someone to roll for me when we are away from a computer), because I find having to mentally add up to 6 or 7 dice slow and taxing. Grabbing symbols and not having to do math would speed it up for me like 10 times. And I'm a person who spends hours per day crunching and system-brewing, so it's not just a lack of practice.

I was more talking about the learning curve for new player. on this point.

9 minutes ago, WHW said:

Yeah, the D10s that come with their clan's color and symbol as a 10.

I have the one for the Imperial (out of the second city box set) and for my clan (phoenix).

The problem here is they are not needed for the game and most people are only going to buy the ones for their clan.

8 hours ago, AsakoDaihmon said:

Honestly, I think they can take something else CGL has done with Shadowrun and have the reporting system for their living world.

Currently they have new modules & story progression released for SR supplements with PDF story session report logs. They take the feedback of how story progressed at both big conventions and home game play, take the best ideas and progress the story in that manner.

RPG affecting story was only really done well - I feel - through the PbP Winter Court boards (still have some of my writing on canonized on those stories) and could have done so much more with it.

While this can be a good idea, it only allows a small group of people input in to the game.

This was the big problem with how AEG handled the story. RPG gamers had little to no input into the game except as stated above. CCG players made most of the choices for the game, and the way the groups where chosen was based on a card game that gave advantages to Clans that could play the current meta in the CCG. This lead to Clans (Phoenix) having to construct deck to handle the current meta and shoehorning them into themes. Example: during the Clan wars the only choices that worked for the Phoenix was to go Shadowlands or Honor. Try out honoring a Crane honor deck or to out run a Lion weenie deck lol.

Overall I am not a fan of the FFG RPGs. None of them. However I can applaud the idea of selling sell custom dice.

However the L5R system was also a bit strange regardless of edition. My main problem was always the physical and mental attribute attached to the rings which created odd characters which did not really fit the game world.

Example: It always eluded my why air shugenja were these monster courtiers with superior archery capabilities. Just why?

51 minutes ago, tenchi2a said:

Not sure I follow what you are trying to say here?

I thought it was pretty simple really. In L5R you are constrained in how you approach increasing your stats by the need to also increase your Insight. It's inefficient to buy to deeply into non-combat/Courtier skill, since it becomes prohibitively more expensive for the same increase to Insight. Considering most skills don't have very many Mastery abilities past 3, there's really no incentive to increase them outside of RP, and you are seemingly punished for wanting to increase a skill for RP purposes. Likewise, such an emphasis is put onto increasing your Rings that it is difficult to play a character that would, for example, be incredibly Perceptive but not also incredibly Strong. Additionally, you again run into the problem of needing to spread out your Rings for cost efficiency, leading to stat homogenization.

In Star Wars, you are not making purchases in service to the almighty Insight, so you have more freedom to invest in skills, talents, force powers, and other specs as you choose. Ultimately, the 10 xp tax for out of career is a drop in the bucket for the skills you add to your list of career skills and the new talents you have access to.

1 hour ago, tenchi2a said:

Traits/Characteristics

In L5R you can raise this stat with xp

In SWFFG it can only be raised by reaching the bottom level of your tree.

True. The system for Star Wars places more emphasis on skills and talents (techniques and mastery abilities) than on characteristics (traits and rings), but ultimately makes raising those characteristics a Big Deal.

1 hour ago, tenchi2a said:

Results:

L5R: Characters balanced for what they are (bushi,shujenga,etc)

SWFFG: Front loaded characters with little in the way of skills

LFR: From a certain point of view that's true.

SWFFG: At character creation, probably, but not necessarily. Afterward, characters will want to start spending xp on skills, or they're going to be failing more and more rolls, and won't have much chance at getting that sweet sweet Triumph.

1 hour ago, tenchi2a said:

Skills/Skills

In L5R you can raise this stat with xp and provide special bonuses at advancing levels.

In SWFFG you can raise this stat with xp which effects nothing but the skill and provide nothing beyond dice number.

In L5R few skills have much in the way of bonuses after rank 3, and Insight makes it prohibitive to raise many past that point. Better to have breadth than depth.

In SW skills do not provide special bonuses in themselves, but do provide better chances of bonuses and lower chances of negatives by virtue of having more positive dice to roll vs the difficulty pool.

1 hour ago, tenchi2a said:

Results:

L5R: skills become very importent due to there conection to your school and the bonuses they add

SWFFG: skills are skills and add nothing to your career.

L5R: Skills have very little import outside of your main combat, political, and magical skills.

SW: Skills should not be neglected. Unless you want to. More power is given to the player.

1 hour ago, tenchi2a said:

Magic/Force Powers

In L5R You can gain spells from research/copying scrolls or gaining school level

In SWFFG you can only gain or improve you Powers by xp.

This is largely a difference of setting, not system, but I'll bite. How much you are allowed to research/copy spells is entirely dependent on your GM. Your main source for increasing spells known is... Insight. The uber stat.

In SW, you choose what powers you want to have access to buy purchasing them with (yes) xp. You can also choose to improve them, meaning that, like skills, your ability with a power can increase from a beginner level to that of a master, and, like talents since that's what these improvements are, they give you more options and abilities.

1 hour ago, tenchi2a said:

L5R: Magical advancement gains both a cinematic and mechanical aspect to it and provides a sense of accomplishment.

SWFFG: Magical advancement is pure mechanical and is just another stat to raise.

L5R: Magical advancement has a primarily mechanical aspect, with a difficult to balance narrative aspect should your GM allow it.

SW: "Magical" advancement uses mechanics to reinforce the cinematic aspect of growing in power.

As a note, I feel the RPGs have largely failed the Shugenja to this point, making them primarily nuclear bombs rather than spiritual priests. Whatever form the next edition of the RPG takes, I would really like to see that change.

1 hour ago, tenchi2a said:

In L5R most Multiclassing is handled cinematically, where you tell a story of how you where excepted into the school, and has few restriction on what you can be excpet that you can't be a bushi and a shugenja.

In SWFFG you pay a penalty to multiclass outside you career. this is for the most part just a mechanical tool to prevent power-gaming.

In L5R you are charged an xp tax for out of clan schools.

In SW you are charged an xp tax for out of career specializations.

1 hour ago, tenchi2a said:

Results:

L5R: gives a more natural cinematic feel to Multiclassing and allows for greater flexibility in character design.

SWFFG: is just a waste of hard gained xp to push a liner dynamic.

This is again a difference of setting. It boils down to the same mechanical concept, and a new L5R game could keep whatever roleplay aspects of this tax the designers feel like keeping.

1 hour ago, tenchi2a said:

Mechanics

In L5R the gm sets a TN bases on: Base TN, bonuses, and players abilities which give the GM/PC a good solid idea of how hard the task will be. the dice just give results and the PC/GM is free to tell the story as they see fit.

In SWFFG the the GM gives the player dice to set the difficulty, which due to the randomness can lead to the results being harder or easier then the GM planed. dice determine all results including the story in this game.

In L5R, you need to figure out where you want the target number to be. This can actually be a pretty large range of numbers, and figuring out how much of a challenge it should be requires knowing your PCs' stats and figuring out what they should be rolling on average. Also, 10s explode (usually), so watch out for those.

In SW, is it supposed to be a difficult roll? Really difficult? You can give them up to five difficulty dice. What are the consequences if they fail? Really bad? Change one or two of those out for Challenge dice, and maybe do it by flipping a Destiny point, so the players get something for the risk. Environmental factors outside of the inherent difficulty? Give them a Setback die or two. Don't stress it too much, you get the hang of it with practice, without having to do math homework. As an added benefit, the dice are geared to usually give you some benefit if you fail (and some detriment if you pass) to help facilitate interesting things happening every round instead bogging rolls down into just "I pass" or (most unhelpfully) "I fail."

1 hour ago, tenchi2a said:

Results:

L5R: this "classic" (for lack of a better word) mechanic give the GM a solid idea of how hard the task is and allows for IMHO better challenge design in the adventure. The result design leaves the storytelling in in the hands of the GM/PC and IMHO is better for exp PC and GM.

SWFFG: The mechanic in SWFFG seems more random and can lead to a task being harder or easier that intended. This can cause issues when a result that was intended to be challenging but doable becomes impossible due to uneven dice rolling (OK/average positive results/ very high negative results). Where the L5R system leaves the stroytelling to the GM/PC the SWFFG system creates the narrative for them in a sense which can be both good and bad. Where it does help new players invision what is happening, it can also derail the vision of what the GM/PC want to happen.

L5R: An outdated system that nevertheless does the simple task you want it to, but it does do it in a more complicated fashion than tenchi2a wants you to believe.

SW: I'm not sure how a task becomes "impossible" in this system. Unlikely? Yes, but that's true of L5R as well, and your example of uneven dice rolling compared to "challenging but doable" is especially troubling. What do you define as "challenging but doable"? Because it should be just as (or more) "impossible" in L5R. Both games have the chance for failure, afterall, and both allow for some outside success in even dire situations (SW actually allows it in all situations, unlike unskilled rolls in L5R).

1 hour ago, tenchi2a said:

Dice

In L5R you use up to 10 D10. easy to come by for most gamers and cheap to get if you don't have then if you don't get to fancy(about $5 for ten). In the game it is easy for everyone to figure out the results. example: 4+6+12=22

In SWFFG you are required to use specialty dice (you can use the chart but it slows the game). to have a good play set for one player you are looking at around $28. In the game the results can be hard for inexperienced players to figure out. example: T+S+S+F+C= S ?

L5R is more like: "1, 2, 3, 4, 6, (10 + 2 [from the reroll]). I get to keep 3, so 4+6+10+2 = 22" Not saying that particular example is terribly difficult to sort out, but there is more to it than you're letting on. If we add an emphasis, it's more like "1, wait let me reroll that. Ok, 2, 3, 3, 4, 6, (10 + 2). 4+6+10+2 = 22. This is a roll you would make at relatively low Insight. Higher Insight means more numbers and complexity.

SW you can buy a beginner set for MSRP $30 (more like $25 or lower outside of FFG's website), which includes one of the best introductory adventures I have ever seen for teaching players new to a system, the same set of dice you would buy for MSRP $15 (more like $12-13), more destiny point tokens than you would get in the same dice pack, tokens to represent NPCs/PCs/creatures/vehicles, and at least one map for the adventure that may have use outside of the adventure as well (like the deckplan for the Krayt Fang from the Edge of the Empire Beginner Game, or the galaxy map from the Force Awakens Beginner Game). More dice are definitely nice, I would recommend at least two sets, which can be shared by a group (no need for everyone to have their own set). There's also an app for it.

Also, both systems have fanmade electronic dicerollers that simplify the process.

1 hour ago, tenchi2a said:

Results:

L5R: Say what you will math is math and 1+1= 2 is an easy concept to grasp. On the cost side the game use dice that most if not all gamers already have or can get cheap. For storytelling the system allow the GM/PC the freedom to tell the story they want and not be limited by the dice.

SWFFG: New and old player alike will find the symbol system hard to grasp at first. On cost the buy-in is high for new and old players. While the aspect of the dice helping to tell the story is nice for new players it can seriously get in the way of experienced players.

L5R: It's not 1+1=2. It's closer to 1+1+1+1-1-1=2, and that doesn't even work when you have emphasis. 1+1=2 is a pretty easy concept to grasp, yes. The more numbers you add the more complex the equation becomes and the more it slows down the game. I'm pretty good at math, and I can do the addition and exclude the dice I don't want to keep pretty easily and quickly. Not everyone I know can say the same.

SW: There's a learning curve. It's not as steep as tenchi2a makes it out to be. I find it helps to group dice with opposing symbols and set them aside.

1 hour ago, tenchi2a said:

Final Results

L5R: While L5R 4th ED is not perfect I find it to be the better of the two systems(IMHO)

SWFFG: The game seem disjointed in areas and seems to cater to new players. Some of the rules seem to be there just to fix problem that at least to me are not problem. The dice system also seems to have been created just to sell dice that you can only get from them. Overall I am not a fan.

P.S. These are my opinions and not hard facts. I am not in anyway trying to say that if you like SWFFG you are wrong.

Overall, I disagree entirely, and I respect your right to your opinion. You don't like the system used for Star Wars, and that's fine, but you did come off as being fairly disingenuous to someone familiar with both systems.

@deraforia, i fully agree with your analysis. I've played the Star Wars RPG from FFG and while the first session was a bit odd at first (we were doing a homebrew campaign originally) we got the hang of the system relatively quickly. My boss at the time, who normally only likes to GM and not actually play, was quickly enthralled by the game and absolutely loved being a player. The way our dice worked as a kind of story aid was amazing, and it is always good to have a creative GM running the table to balance things out.

I've also played the L5R game and I have to say it is a bit over complicated in many ways. When I tried to teach the game to new players they quickly fell out of interest, but when I showed them the Star Wars RPG they were immediately enthralled by the gameplay and the freedom to build their character without having to worry about Insight or balancing stats and rings, etc.

Before I moved to Texas I was working on adapting the Star Wars RPG rules for L5R, just a quick idea more so than anything really indepth, and I found it very fitting. As such I find that L5R utilizing a system similar to the SWRPG has merit. It could easily lend itself to the amazing world of Rokugan, utilize the five rings as the stats perhaps, and really make a show of the risk of combat and the intrigue of the court. Even the use of "fate" tokens lends itself well to the L5R setting.

10 hours ago, AtoMaki said:

I dunno, but things like individual weapon maintenance (the worst that remained for me from my Gadgeeter career) and all those D100 tables (WHY?) are surely off-putting when it comes to storytelling-over-crunch. In fact, I'm hard pressed right now to remember a single truly narrative mechanic from the game (maybe Careful Planning and Utility Belt?) other than the special dice results (that can be translated to simple crunch anyway).

Destiny points is the big one that stands out...

The dice and destiny points are the engine that run the game. There are definitely crunchy bits in there, too, no one should really try to dispute that, but saying that there's not really anything narrative about the game other than the entire action resolution mechanic is kind of odd.

The D100 tables, being the critical system, make damage more than just numbers on a sheet of paper. You're not just at 10 wounds, you took a blow to the head, stunning you and making it difficult to do much. For the most part, when the game uses its crunch it's to support its narrative, cinematic style.

6 hours ago, tenchi2a said:

Not sure I follow what you are trying to say here?

I have played both game from start to high level L5R(rank 4-5) and SWFFG(1250+ xp). From this xp as a GM/PC and from feedback from my PC I have found.

Traits/Characteristics

In L5R you can raise this stat with xp

In SWFFG it can only be raised by reaching the bottom level of your tree.

Results:

L5R: Characters balanced for what they are (bushi,shujenga,etc)

SWFFG: Front loaded characters with little in the way of skills

Let's just take a look at one of your "examples" you offered, above.

That's your choice when you made your characters in Star Wars. You can totally make a character with a lot of skills in Star Wars, or a lot of stats. And unlike the roll and keep system, it doesn't particularly matter overmuch, as the game takes either the highest of your stat or skill as the dominant number in any test. So if you have a lot of skills, you don't need a lot of stats. And if you want a lot of stats, you'll be reasonable but not amazing at everything, but lacking the specialist punch someone with a lot of skills will have.

In general, all of your complaints about the Star Wars game were showing that it doesn't do what the roll and keep system does. Not surprising, they're different systems. But then you go ahead and ding the Star Wars system for not being the L5R system. Not surprisingly, a system that is not the L5R system sucks at not being the L5R system. Every other RPG in the world, in fact, is worse at being the L5R system than L5R is. But we could reverse your examples and show that the L5R system is worse at being the Star Wars system than Star Wars is.

You did a disservice to both systems with your makeshift examples here.

5 hours ago, deraforia said:

I thought it was pretty simple really. In L5R you are constrained in how you approach increasing your stats by the need to also increase your Insight. It's inefficient to buy to deeply into non-combat/Courtier skill, since it becomes prohibitively more expensive for the same increase to Insight. Considering most skills don't have very many Mastery abilities past 3, there's really no incentive to increase them outside of RP, and you are seemingly punished for wanting to increase a skill for RP purposes. Likewise, such an emphasis is put onto increasing your Rings that it is difficult to play a character that would, for example, be incredibly Perceptive but not also incredibly Strong. Additionally, you again run into the problem of needing to spread out your Rings for cost efficiency, leading to stat homogenization.

I in no way feel that 4th ed is perfect. There are things that need to be fixed see my 5th ed write-up further down the page.

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In Star Wars, you are not making purchases in service to the almighty Insight, so you have more freedom to invest in skills, talents, force powers, and other specs as you choose. Ultimately, the 10 xp tax for out of career is a drop in the bucket for the skills you add to your list of career skills and the new talents you have access to.

True. The system for Star Wars places more emphasis on skills and talents (techniques and mastery abilities) than on characteristics (traits and rings), but ultimately makes raising those characteristics a Big Deal.

LFR: From a certain point of view that's true.

SWFFG: At character creation, probably, but not necessarily. Afterward, characters will want to start spending xp on skills, or they're going to be failing more and more rolls, and won't have much chance at getting that sweet sweet Triumph.

I just found that L5R PC where more balances out the gate then SWFFG PC is all I meant by this.

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In L5R few skills have much in the way of bonuses after rank 3, and Insight makes it prohibitive to raise many past that point. Better to have breadth than depth.

In SW skills do not provide special bonuses in themselves, but do provide better chances of bonuses and lower chances of negatives by virtue of having more positive dice to roll vs the difficulty pool.

L5R: Skills have very little import outside of your main combat, political, and magical skills.

SW: Skills should not be neglected. Unless you want to. More power is given to the player.

I brought that up in the next post as one of the things that need to change in L5R 5th ed. But it still don't give SWFFG a pass do to its system needing some work.

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This is largely a difference of setting, not system, but I'll bite. How much you are allowed to research/copy spells is entirely dependent on your GM. Your main source for increasing spells known is... Insight. The uber stat.

In every game of L5R I have play both as the GM and as a PC our main source of Spells have always been story. Whether it was a story award or just stopping at the local clan library. you only get 3 skills per insight rank in this game.

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In SW, you choose what powers you want to have access to buy purchasing them with (yes) xp. You can also choose to improve them, meaning that, like skills, your ability with a power can increase from a beginner level to that of a master, and, like talents since that's what these improvements are, they give you more options and abilities.

the problem is you get a power at first level no matter how advanced you are and have to spend xp to increase it. that's not a plus to me. but each to there own

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L5R: Magical advancement has a primarily mechanical aspect, with a difficult to balance narrative aspect should your GM allow it.

I have never had any issues balancing Spell casters but I'm sure that is situational depending on the players.

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SW: "Magical" advancement uses mechanics to reinforce the cinematic aspect of growing in power.

As a note, I feel the RPGs have largely failed the Shugenja to this point, making them primarily nuclear bombs rather than spiritual priests. Whatever form the next edition of the RPG takes, I would really like to see that change.

This is not a failure of the game but of the player and the GM. Shugenja are not combat monsters but, and I have had this in one or to game Player with a different RPG background will sometimes try to play them as wizards. I handle this but making sure a player knows before they pick a shujenga that they are mystic clerics not wizards. I also do not let them snub there duties as such(blessing field, presiding over wedding and births, etc.) On a more mechanical note fire shujenga tend to be the only one that I have found to be blasters. Other elements tend to have there own niche.

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In L5R you are charged an xp tax for out of clan schools.

This is only if you go out of clan for your schooling. And while you do get hit if you switch schools early its free to enter an Advanced school and if you reach Rank five the game gives you multiple schools for free (read the GM section on high level advancement.)

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In SW, is it supposed to be a difficult roll? Really difficult? You can give them up to five difficulty dice. What are the consequences if they fail? Really bad? Change one or two of those out for Challenge dice, and maybe do it by flipping a Destiny point, so the players get something for the risk. Environmental factors outside of the inherent difficulty? Give them a Setback die or two. Don't stress it too much, you get the hang of it with practice, without having to do math homework. As an added benefit, the dice are geared to usually give you some benefit if you fail (and some detriment if you pass) to help facilitate interesting things happening every round instead bogging rolls down into just "I pass" or (most unhelpfully) "I fail."

I understand what you are saying but not sure what point you where trying to make about this comment. What I was stating is that the probabilities are easier to set in L5R . With 5k3 and exploding dice the odds of hitting a TNs are 30(24%), 25(42%), 20(72%), 15(93%) so this makes it fairly easy for a GM to setup an adventure. where a floating TN like the SWFFG dice can throw-off your plans as the GM. Its bad enough when the player derail the adventure with their choices(I'm Fine with this the game is about them) but I don't need the dice doing it to. Now just to clarify this is MHO, some people like the game to do this.

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L5R: An outdated system that nevertheless does the simple task you want it to, but it does do it in a more complicated fashion than tenchi2a wants you to believe.

I was not

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SW: I'm not sure how a task becomes "impossible" in this system. Unlikely? Yes, but that's true of L5R as well, and your example of uneven dice rolling compared to "challenging but doable" is especially troubling. What do you define as "challenging but doable"? Because it should be just as (or more) "impossible" in L5R. Both games have the chance for failure, afterall, and both allow for some outside success in even dire situations (SW actually allows it in all situations, unlike unskilled rolls in L5R).

The point was its hard to balance a challenge when the TN is variable and you have only limited control over it. yes you can give less or more dice but thats not the same as adding +/- 5 to the TN with the TN I have a pretty good idea of the difficulty where as with the dice I could be adding nothing or more then I intended to the roll.

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L5R is more like: "1, 2, 3, 4, 6, (10 + 2 [from the reroll]). I get to keep 3, so 4+6+10+2 = 22" Not saying that particular example is terribly difficult to sort out, but there is more to it than you're letting on. If we add an emphasis, it's more like "1, wait let me reroll that. Ok, 2, 3, 3, 4, 6, (10 + 2). 4+6+10+2 = 22. This is a roll you would make at relatively low Insight. Higher Insight means more numbers and complexity.

I think you are blowing this way out of proportion. 4+6+10+2 = 22 is in no way higher math. even at higher levels 8k5 (18,4,3,8,1(reroll :5),13,3,7) 18+8+5+13+7= 51 is still not higher math.

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SW you can buy a beginner set for MSRP $30 (more like $25 or lower outside of FFG's website), which includes one of the best introductory adventures I have ever seen for teaching players new to a system, the same set of dice you would buy for MSRP $15 (more like $12-13), more destiny point tokens than you would get in the same dice pack, tokens to represent NPCs/PCs/creatures/vehicles, and at least one map for the adventure that may have use outside of the adventure as well (like the deckplan for the Krayt Fang from the Edge of the Empire Beginner Game, or the galaxy map from the Force Awakens Beginner Game). More dice are definitely nice, I would recommend at least two sets, which can be shared by a group (no need for everyone to have their own set). There's also an app for it.

$12 a pack is still $24 dollars. And from experience you need at least 2 packs to play without a lot of re-rolling dice.

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Also, both systems have fanmade electronic dicerollers that simplify the process.

This again depends on the player. there are Dicerollers for most games but I myself like the feel of the dice in my hands.

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L5R: It's not 1+1=2. It's closer to 1+1+1+1-1-1=2, and that doesn't even work when you have emphasis. 1+1=2 is a pretty easy concept to grasp, yes. The more numbers you add the more complex the equation becomes and the more it slows down the game. I'm pretty good at math, and I can do the addition and exclude the dice I don't want to keep pretty easily and quickly. Not everyone I know can say the same.

again I was in no way saying that 1+1=2 is all you will ever add together to get your result, what I was saying was that L5R is simple math exploding dice and all. 2+8+5+12= 27 is no harder and this is not higher math in any sense and never gets to be.

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SW: There's a learning curve. It's not as steep as tenchi2a makes it out to be. I find it helps to group dice with opposing symbols and set them aside.

This statement really depends on your player, If you have players that have been gaming D&D, Shadowrun, it can be hard sometime, The first words that I get out of most players mouths is why learn an new system when there is nothing wrong with the old one. The second is this is just a cash grab.

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Overall, I disagree entirely, and I respect your right to your opinion. You don't like the system used for Star Wars, and that's fine, but you did come off as being fairly disingenuous to someone familiar with both systems.

You are free to disagree with me all you want as stated. but please don't take what I say out of context to prove I'm wrong. I have been playing L5R since 1998 I still have the first book in storage, I also have a copies of all 6 of the L5R corebook that has been released (1st,2nd,Oriental adventures/Rokugan, 3rd,3rd rev, and 4th). As for star wars I had an ongoing campaign from the Edge of the Empire beta till just after the release of Force and Destiny when My players and I decided we where not happy with it and quit. I do have to say it was the 2nd best of the star wars game (saga was #1).

1 hour ago, Gaffa said:

Let's just take a look at one of your "examples" you offered, above.

That's your choice when you made your characters in Star Wars. You can totally make a character with a lot of skills in Star Wars, or a lot of stats. And unlike the roll and keep system, it doesn't particularly matter overmuch, as the game takes either the highest of your stat or skill as the dominant number in any test. So if you have a lot of skills, you don't need a lot of stats. And if you want a lot of stats, you'll be reasonable but not amazing at everything, but lacking the specialist punch someone with a lot of skills will have.

The point was in the Star war game you are handicapping yourself if you don't get the highest stats you can at character creating due to the inability to raise them out side of talents after. where with the L5R system you can have a more balanced approach since you can raise them directly with xp.

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In general, all of your complaints about the Star Wars game were showing that it doesn't do what the roll and keep system does. Not surprising, they're different systems. But then you go ahead and ding the Star Wars system for not being the L5R system. Not surprisingly, a system that is not the L5R system sucks at not being the L5R system. Every other RPG in the world, in fact, is worse at being the L5R system than L5R is. But we could reverse your examples and show that the L5R system is worse at being the Star Wars system than Star Wars is.

This is a L5R forum post of course I'm say SWFFG is not L5R that is the point.

The post is intended as precursor to my second post about what I want to see in L5R 5th ED.

This was to head off the we need a new system based on the SWFFG for L5R.

so you made my point SWFFG is not L5R, nor should it be in the next edition.

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You did a disservice to both systems with your makeshift examples here.

I don't see that I'm doing a disservice to any system. This was a statement of my point of view.

5 hours ago, deraforia said:

In SW, is it supposed to be a difficult roll? Really difficult? You can give them up to five difficulty dice. What are the consequences if they fail? Really bad? Change one or two of those out for Challenge dice, and maybe do it by flipping a Destiny point, so the players get something for the risk. Environmental factors outside of the inherent difficulty? Give them a Setback die or two. Don't stress it too much, you get the hang of it with practice, without having to do math homework. As an added benefit, the dice are geared to usually give you some benefit if you fail (and some detriment if you pass) to help facilitate interesting things happening every round instead bogging rolls down into just "I pass" or (most unhelpfully) "I fail."

Urgh.... I swear I've got PTSD from this despite playing only, like, three or four sessions (and pouring all those hours into a C&C RPG conversion). If there is one thing I absolutely loathe in the FFG special dice mechanic then it is the endless dice hunting and the similarly time-consuming result reading - the latter which can turn out to be extremely unrewarding after all the effort put into it because of the LULRANDUM dice.

Otherwise, I fully agree with tenchi2a. His analysis feels largely spot-on as far as I'm concerned.

3 hours ago, deraforia said:

Destiny points is the big one that stands out...

Yeah, that's why I mentioned Utility Belt and Careful Planning. Their more readily available cousin (Destiny) is included. Tho I'm not a big fan of Destiny because of multiple reasons (Force Dice favoring Dark Side, GM antagonism, and crunch bonuses being much better than the poor lonely narrative bonus).

6 hours ago, tenchi2a said:

The point was in the Star war game you are handicapping yourself if you don't get the highest stats you can at character creating due to the inability to raise them out side of talents after. where with the L5R system you can have a more balanced approach since you can raise them directly with xp.

You really don't have to do this, though. If you want really high stats, yes, go ahead and spend all of your starting xp on characteristics. I even recommend new players go this route generally. But not every concept requires this, and you might be happy with just one or two characteristics at 3, which leaves you with more to spend on skills and talents. Since the Dedication talent that raises your characteristic never costs more than 25 xp on its own, and raising at creation is new score x10, there's an argument to be made that this is the more efficient path. Ultimately, it depends on what you want out of a character. Characteristics are not as important in SW as traits are in L5R, so this option is certainly just as viable.

6 hours ago, tenchi2a said:

This was to head off the we need a new system based on the SWFFG for L5R.

And some of us are heading off the attempts to shut down this line of conversation because we think there is merit in such a system change.