I have heard a number of people complain about the Fate Deck mechanics and the unpredictibility of combat/duel/diplomacy resolution (along with the increased downtime as people count cards of the deck). Some have talked about preferring dice and trying to translate the cards onto dice. I thought of an alternate idea.

Simply reshuffle the Fate Deck every time a card (or more) is drawn. I would presonally only reshullfe at the end of a combat/diplomacy/duel (to keep things moving).

1) This way there is no discard deck to look though.

2) The odds at tha START of a combat/duel/etc are always the same and can be easily determined (I would provide a one page or smaller snapshot of the odds of every result for everyfigure with a full deck).

3) Players would feel like they had a grasp of the probable outcomes.

4)You would not have to approximate the percentage outcomes and move them to d8, d10, d12, etc.

5) Also the fate cards are more complicated than just using dice. Drawing one card simultaneously changes the odds (up or down) of every result of every figure. You can't uncouple them without perturbing the math of the game.

Reshuffeling after every event still preturbs the statistics of the game, but not as drastically, and seems like a good balance between keeping the game close to the intended game mechanics while giving players more of a handle on the chances of success without tedious (and difficult for combat) math.

What do you all think?

It sounds like a perfectly valid house rule if you want to use it. Personally I don't play with anybody who seriously counts cards (at least not anyone who stops the game in order to do so), but I might still give this one a whirl because I rather suspect the changing odds of missing cards in the draw pile might become an annoyance to me.

In short, I don't think the game is broken enough to NEED this house rule, but I also don't think it hurts anything for those inclined to use it.

I'm skeptical about the Fate deck. From the look of it, it seems all the card counting and once-a-year reshuffling is an active part of the design.
However, I can't imagine that as being... well, fun. Besides, what's supposed to happen when you're planning on attacking or attempting diplomacy somewhere and all the 'good' fate cards are gone? You postpone until next year? Is the discard pile supposed to be an integral part of a strategy?

I thought the Fate deck was merely a randomizer but if it was, the official ruling would have been to reshuffle the deck after each draw, which is not the case. So before any house ruling, I'd like to understand what are the real implications of the official rule. I hope I'll be able to find out by myself pretty soon

I think you bring up some good points. The one issue I see with shuffling the cards after every time you draw is that it seems like doing that would slow the game down. I think that the reason you reshuffle the deck once a year, as opposed to merely when the fate deck runs out, is to ensure that the fate deck keeps some freshness to it. I think a good solution to card counting would be to a) not allow players to look through the discard pile and b) the player drawing the cards only has to share the relevant information. For instance, if you draw 5 cards on a diplomacy, you would only need to show the one card that you chose to use, the other cards would go into the discard pile unseen. Or, in a battle, only damage, routs and special abilities would be discussed and the cards would be placed in the discard pile without further examination. I agree with Steve-O, the fate card system is not broken enough to need retooling and its originality makes it fun to play with, plus it really does stream-line combat.

The Fate Card Deck works just like a die - totally random. Even if you know there are many, say, Orb icons left in the drawing pile, you won't draw all of

these cards on your own (attacker draws for initiative 1, then defender for ini 1...) which would make it pretty hard to make use of that knowledge.

Additionally, the Fate Cards feature FIVE different values (triangle, rectangle, hexagon, circle, diplomacy) and most likely nobody, even given the

knowledge of the Cards already drawn, will be able to figure all the values on all remaining Fate Cards.

Just imagine: (Number of Card + 5 values)*30 + all cards already drawn. This will be 180-209 values you MUST have in your mind just to be able

to tell what Fate Cards remain (provided you are not using some kind of chart/table). From the so found remaining Cards and their icons, you would

still have to calculate the chances of your desired outcomes, thereby taking into account how many of these Cards will be drawn by you, and how many

by another player. That is, in short, impossible. If anyone can in fact keep track of that, he deserves it anyway.

I am actually more concerned about the cards themselves. Dice are solid. But with only 30 cards available, the Cards may see some fast

deterioration (even with sleeves). I would hate to see my cards suffer ^^

Chancellor of Sol said:

You're assuming that the player wants to predict what cards *will* be in the deck when his turn eventually comes whereas I'm concerned about the cards that actually *won't* be in the deck for sure.
If you want to make a diplomatic move and you're pondering if playing this mobilize order card is the right thing to do while they are only a handful cards remaining in the fate deck, you'd better check the discard. If all gold and silver symbols are in the discard for everyone to see, you just can't succeed.
With a public discard and a fate deck reshuffled only once a year, you can't really afford to overlook the discard pile. On the other hand, some player might burn a lot of fate card on his turn and the deck gets reshuffled before you turn comes...

Long story short, the whole fate deck mechanic seems kinda messy to me. It's supposed to be random, but the more cards are drawn the less random it is etc... I think I'd rather make as random as possible and reshuffle it after each draw, but I'm a bit reluctant to do that since it's definitely not what the designer had in mind.

I'm going to agree with Sol. If you have someone looking at the cards before every battle, they are probably not really doing anything at all, and are doing it inefficiently. Most people who play this game aren't going to be good enough at math (well above average) to actually benefit from looking at the discard pile before deciding to start a battle. The only time it is really reasonable for most people to look at the discard pile is when attempting a quest or diplomacy, and those odds are very easy to determine, especially if you sort the discarded cards into three piles based on red/silver/gold icons. The fate deck mechanic also limits the number of successful quests/diplomacy attempts per year, and shuffling the deck each time you do something that makes you draw cards would screw that up.

broken said:

I agree that people can't realstically do the math to calculate the odds for combats by looking through the discards. That is mot the point. The point is that some players want to have a more concrete feeling for the battle statitsics, and that is near impossible with the given Fate Deck mechanic. Some like that, and that's cool (I am in fact one), but others do not. They feel that playing a strategy game, the battles should have more strategy than, I throw some units in, I don't really have a clue how it will go, let's cross my fingers. This is an idea for those players/groups. Personally, I hope to keep the current Fate mechanic.

One thing the Fate deck can do that dice can't...be predictable, especially as the deck gets low. As mentioned, when wondering about your success rate at diplomacy, if you know how many ally results there are, you can guage your success rate better. it might be more difficult for battle results, but again, a little experience and some record keeping with the deck will tell you your chances of having a certain unit's ability activate or not.

I think the term Fate was chosen rather deliberately. It's meant to be a little predictable. The Fantasy genre is full of prophecies and fate and such...incorporating the Fate deck builds this kind of mechanic into the game. Figure there's only a few diplomatic successes left in the deck? It's the oracles telling you now's not the time to try and get those giants to ally with you. Figure there's a lot of Triangle special ability/damage cards left? Signs and portents say now is the time to attack with your amry of bowmen.

It's something that few games have been able to pull off. Sure, it rewards the experienced player, and it runs the risk of bogging combat down. But instead of making combat about percentages, it makes combat more real, invoking a timing issue that dice alone can never really provide.

wow alot of complainers,card reshufflers an card counters, SERIOUS people thats the point of the cards too keep it simple not go crazy cuz you didnt like the rules,or didnt like the odds of your battles,diplomacy etc..... and the reshuffe after every round youve got to be kidding me people are that crybaby about that haha, we burn through that deck at summer sometimes, and all it takes is a simple reshuffle and bam start again, as the counting the odds of diplomacy, or other things just LOOK at the discard pile if its high you have less of a chance if its low then more of a chance how hard is that? plus once youve played it enough assign people to do the card handouts reshuffle draw season etc.... its a great game an should be left alone with itself... no changes.... maybe an extra fate card deck for each side of play would be a bonus but besides that ... LEAVE IT!!!! SHEESH

Another problem with the fate deck is the size. If the size were like the larger playing card size rather than the tiny ones it would be nicer to shuffle and easier to deal to players. It needs to be shuffled, tinkered with and dealt too often to be that small. I still maintain dice would be better, but if you re going to do cards they should at least be well done.

If people are really concerned about the ability to look at the discard pile as a means of determining if any good cards are left, but also feel that reshuffling after every draw is a pain in the neck, then another easy house rule would be to say that the discard pile is no longer public. You can see the card on top, but you're not allowed to sift through it, so your calculations will have to be based on memory (or better yet, just forget about it and play the **** game.)

I also don't think it's necessarily fair to say that looking through the discard pile is an "intended part of the mechanic" just because it's allowed. The idea that you're somehow playing wrong if you DON'T look through the discards strikes me as a bit anal retentive. Like WoW players who say you're playing wrong if your DPS/Healing/whatever isn't the absolute maximum it could possibly be - these people are missing the point. We play games to have fun with our friends (at least I do.) Just because you aren't the absolute best at everything doesn't mean you're the worst in the world. Just because you're able to look at the discard pile whenever you want doesn't mean you HAVE to. It's not like Corey is going to send a military strike force to your house and reclaim the game if you aren't using the absolute best strategy the rules allow.

If the fate deck mechanic really bothers you that much, there have been a few perfectly good house rule ideas suggested here already. Do what you need to to make the game fun and then go have fun!

Steve-O said:

Maybe they could add this in a future expansion?

Taki said:

I don't think you could do with dice what the Fate cards allow, by changing the probability as the seasons go on. While I don't see myself looking through the discards to see what the various attack symbols are, I *CAN* imagine it being simple to look through the discards to see how many Destiny icons of specific types are used before doing a quest or Diplomacy. Sometimes it will be easier and sometimes it will be harder to do those. With a plain old d30, you take a lot of that away.

Plus, you don't have to reference charts and tables all the time.

As for the shuffling, I got some sleeves for the cards. With sleeves, they are MUCH MUCH easier to shuffle. Don't want to pay FFG's prices for 'em? Then get the Maydaygames version. Sleeving them will help them last longer anyway, which seeing how much they are used, may be a lot.

sigmazero13 said:

I kind of enjoy the fate deck. However, after I put the fate cards in the little mini sleeves, I thought they were hader to manage. The just slip around more and don't seem to stay still!

Steve-O said:

Wrong, maybe not, but certainly suboptimal. I certainly won't check on the discard pile every five seconds, but I know some people will (and drive me mad). It's just a little strange that a game of this caliber relies on a device that stirs up so many questions.

Seboss said:

I would argue that it isn't so much the game that relies on this as it is these friends of yours who insist on exploiting every conceivable advantage well beyond the limits of "good fun." The same flaw can be said of any game that uses a discard pile for its cards, after all.

Some issues are due to game mechanics that stir up too many questions, and some issues are due to people who go looking for questions to stir up. I personally feel this example is the latter. You can fault the game if you like, but I think on the whole you'd have a lot more fun if you went looking for a different gaming crew instead of a different game.

simpatikool said:

Did you use FFG's or Maydaygames? I haven't tried FFG's, but I know they are thicker, which means the stack is higher, and thus more likely to fall over.

The Mayday sleeves I use work great. The stack doesn't stay perfectly "straight", but it hasn't fallen over, and the more I use them (for other games), the less slippery they become (though they still are really easy to shuffle).

Yup, after a while some dust settles between the cards and they dont slip away so easily anymore.

Btw I bought mine from Arcane Tinmen, they are also great.

Steve-O said:

I haven't played the game yet, and I'm just trying to form my opinion on the game before committing a hundred bucks on it. From the numerous reviews and session reports I read on the geek, it's seems that for some people the Fate deck is not as random as it should be. I'm merely curious about whereas it was intentional or not.

Regarding my gaming crew, sometimes there're people you just can't avoid...

What do you mean "not as random as it should be"?

I can definitely say that based on the rules and other posts by Corey, the Fate Deck works exactly as intended - especially with quests, etc. IE, the odds change with each card pull as the discards grow, and you can look at the discards to weigh whether or not doing a quest is worthwhile.

You could probably do the same with combat, but memorizing the combat stats is probably much more difficult, and probably not worth the effort overall. But being able to gauge the chances of success based on what has been pulled already is explicitely intentional as the rulebook mentions this as a valid tactic directly.

sigmazero13 said:

As in "less than a die". But alright, if I got it right, the Fate deck is made as such that quests and diplomacy are moderately predictable whereas combat is not, unless you're ready to do quite a bit of math. I'm perfectly fine with that, although it's quite a strange (but interesting) beast.