I just read the first post, but I have a very simple rule for this: If it didn't happen on the table, it didn't happen at all. I want to see those crafting checks. Because even with a ahigh pool, players still tend to have the odd threat or something in it.

This player is holding your game and your fun hostage by controlling the location of play. Tell him that you don't approve of his methods and rationale. If he disagrees, leave. You have nothing to lose but your misery.

On 4/21/2017 at 3:13 PM, awayputurwpn said:

But I also think that this player went way out of bounds when he rolled his crafting checks at home.

A counterpoint - with the right group and a player that wont game the system, rolling away from the table isn't that big of a deal (and helps streamline the process). My engineer loves to build all sorts of crazy crap during her down time - but I don't want to monopolize the session by trying to figure out how to spend all those advantages and stuff when we should be killing stormtroopers. The flip side of that is that I don't want to short-change myself by not strategically spending those advantages. So I keep an eye on the downtime, crunch the numbers at home at my leisure, and it's not really been a problem.

Even the one time I had the Luck of the Gods on rolling to build a Gaffi Stick and more advantages and triumphs to make it a weapon worthy of Hatori Hanzo, I went to the group the next session, said "You are never going to believe this result" and showed them the numbers. But everyone was cool with it, so the roll stood (and the Gaffi has been her signature weapon ever since, fearing no man nor Jedi with it). Otherwise, it's just a little bit of extra income as she flips those guns and whatnots on the side.

Is this guy capable of doing that? Sounds like not and the GM should closely monitor what he does. But as a sweeping generalization, I just wanna point out that not all crafting away from table is bad.

Best of both worlds roll on orokos.com and have them post roll to your email io to your forum account, or just look up their roll history to prevent shenanigans.

20 hours ago, TheShard said:

Best of both worlds roll on orokos.com and have them post roll to your email io to your forum account, or just look up their roll history to prevent shenanigans.

It's not quite as handy as https://dice.owenmead.com/ for displaying rolls but it does have a timestamp. I'm not seeing a way to show a list of rolls to someone else, seems like you have to share them individually.

7 minutes ago, themensch said:

It's not quite as handy as https://dice.owenmead.com/ for displaying rolls but it does have a timestamp. I'm not seeing a way to show a list of rolls to someone else, seems like you have to share them individually.

Your roll history is public. Just click on the username: http://orokos.com/roll/m-awaypturwpn

It's just too easy to have 'mister roll in secret' show up ten minutes early and make their roll. I bring sessions to and end intentionally a little early-ish when an opportunity or natural break in the action permits and we do admin stuff. They spend their xp awarded if they like, if they can they heal/recover Strain, if they're in a position tweak gear, or repair stuff, or modify/whip something up.

I don't do rolling away from the table, even if it's all in jest it immediately gets into trust issue and I just don't let it occur, that's what GMs are for. Using some remote system to do rolls when we are going to meet in person isn't needed imo. Patience and accepting you're going to roll in front of the GM is what is needed.

People can do all their page flipping at home in between sessions, and I encourage that because I don't want people doing that during play. There is nothing that says a PC has to spend their roll results immediately on a crafting check. If you do all that at the end of the session like I do, the PC can record their results, and at home between sessions at their leisure decide how to spend the results.

That works too but since orokos.com is the go to dice roller on these boards for pbp, shouldn't be a problem to use to save face to face time for the actual role paying... Not roll playing.

Just make sure they include a good descriptive title to the roll so it's clear what it's for.

57 minutes ago, TheShard said:

That works too but since orokos.com is the go to dice roller on these boards for pbp, shouldn't be a problem to use to save face to face time for the actual role paying... Not roll playing.

I find that cliché tired and overused, as well as, completely not applicable. There is zero role playing going on when someone rolls dice at home by themselves.

Sorry, but taking ten seconds to roll a dice pool during post session and spending results or saving them to think about till the next session takes no more effort than dealing with awarded xp.

This is a behavior trying to invent excuses and seek solutions to a problem that is easily dealt with by simply saying, in person game, dice rolled in person, done.

I don't know I don't think it's a problem to deal with crafting out of session, and there is a perfectly usable mechanism to keep things honest.

Don't use it if you don't perfer it, but I think this is a great way to pack more into a session and leave the less interesting stuff outside of it.

I'm sorry were we talking about integrity or role playing versus roll playing? Jumping back and forth between points is another technique of people trying to cloud the issue.

There is no inordinate table time being wasted on a dice roll, that's a false argument. It takes likes 10 seconds to roll some dice and figure results, maybe.

There is no role play issue because there is no role play alone unless you're a schizophrenic.

There is no integrity issue to overcome if you just roll at the table, so there is no need for a solution to that problem if you simply don't allow the problem to exist.

So we all want to role play, there is no actual time issue, we can't role play alone in a closet, therefore ultimately there is no reason for not rolling at the table.

13 minutes ago, 2P51 said:

I'm sorry were we talking about integrity or role playing versus roll playing? Jumping back and forth between points is another technique of people trying to cloud the issue.

There is no inordinate table time being wasted on a dice roll, that's a false argument. It takes likes 10 seconds to roll some dice and figure results, maybe.

There is no integrity issue to overcome if you just roll at the table, so there is no need for a solution to that problem if you simply don't allow the problem to exist.

I've known players that could take an hour crafting off of one or two rolls. If that works for you and your group then that's great. Many don't find that enjoyable. So a player can be in email/chat/messenger conversations with their GM for all of their crafting and mundane shopping rolls and be ready to jump right into the game when they get to the table. And there's no concern about integrity of the dice since every roll is right there for the GM to see.

The option is there for the gamers that want to use it. Dismissing it outright because it's not your play style is hardly constructive.

2 hours ago, 2P51 said:

It's just too easy to have 'mister roll in secret' show up ten minutes early and make their roll. I bring sessions to and end intentionally a little early-ish when an opportunity or natural break in the action permits and we do admin stuff. They spend their xp awarded if they like, if they can they heal/recover Strain, if they're in a position tweak gear, or repair stuff, or modify/whip something up.

All things being equal, I would do what the Pirate suggests, including XP expenditures, except normally I would do all that at the front of the session. I'm a proponent of having the denouement at the end of a session be the actual end of the session, rather than doing admin stuff like spending XP or declaring downtime activities. I'll usually do those things at the front of the session, prior to the recap narrative. I try to do everything I can do build excitement for the impending session, and oftentimes I don't want players leaving a session thinking that their characters have this big open slot of free time—unless we've obviously just finished a big adventure and they all know we are going to be "fast-forwarding" for the next session. I might do some fast-forwarding during an adventure, of course, but I won't tell them I'm doing that a week in advance. Tends to rob the narrative of its potency.

If a player asked me at the end of a session if he could roll dice to build something, or do anything else during "downtime," I would default to the response, "Yeah man, just make a note of it on your sheet and we'll roll it up next week at the front of the session, as soon as we narrate some downtime." That way, there is some built-in anticipation for the next session.

That having been said, I know there will be plenty of times when it serves the story to narrate a break in the action as denouement; e.g., the heroes spend the next several weeks getting some well-deserved relaxation, playing sabacc, doing some light scouting activities, training, spending all their credits, and so on. So if a player really wanted to roll dice away from the table, and if it made sense for the ongoing narrative; I'd point him towards orokos.com, just because I think it's a fantastic tool.

However, with Orokos there are two big roadblocks: one needs to be tech-savvy ( just a tiny smidge, really ), and one needs to be comfortable with not rolling physical dice. For most of my players, that combination does not exist. They either prefer rolling physical dice to digital, or are completely non-tech-savvy, or both But, for the right player, it could work. And since Orokos keeps records, it's plenty easy to put the halt on any shenanigans of cheating, mis-remembering, or mis-applying the dice results

What @Ahrimon said!

1 minute ago, Ahrimon said:

I've known players that could take an hour crafting off of one or two rolls.

Wow!! I've never seen that happen. Is it just pervasive indecision, or did they not understand how to apply the dice results before rolling?

Or they are doing a ton of crafting rolls.

5 minutes ago, awayputurwpn said:

However, with Orokos there are two big roadblocks: one needs to be tech-savvy ( just a tiny smidge, really ), and one needs to be comfortable with not rolling physical dice. For most of my players, that combination does not exist. They either prefer rolling physical dice to digital, or are completely non-tech-savvy, or both But, for the right player, it could work. And since Orokos keeps records, it's plenty easy to put the halt on any shenanigans of cheating, mis-remembering, or mis-applying the dice results

I'm definitely the dice in hand type of player but Orokos is growing on me for experimenting with what sort of rolls I can expect. And since I'm trying my first play by post it's something that I've had to adjust to.

2 minutes ago, awayputurwpn said:

Wow!! I've never seen that happen. Is it just pervasive indecision, or did they not understand how to apply the dice results before rolling?

Decision paralysis is part of it. Part is not having enough advantage for the hoped for result so you have to sit down and figure out what you want with your successful, but not final attempt. And part is I've known people that just like to think it out and go over all of the options. So to have them roll at the table would either force them to pick quickly and ultimately be unsatisfied with the experience. This could turn them off of playing a crafter and their character all together. I haven't seen it happen yet since I haven't been able to play in almost 3 years, but I've known players that would fit this example. Ultimately it comes down to individual and group preferences and I'm just glad there is an option for those that want it.

36 minutes ago, Ahrimon said:

Ultimately it comes down to individual and group preferences and I'm just glad there is an option for those that want it.

Agreed.

As GMs, we have our ideas and ideals—but when they come into contact with the players, we often find the need to make amendments and I am definitely all about keeping the fun, action, and excitement at a high during table time. So if crafting detracts from that, then some modifications have to be made...to the way you make modifications

4 hours ago, 2P51 said:

Using some remote system to do rolls when we are going to meet in person isn't needed imo. Patience and accepting you're going to roll in front of the GM is what is needed.

That's all fine and dandy when you're lucky enough to have free time for all involved. My group generally doesn't - heck, just getting everyone to the session is problematic. Having a trustworthy means to do crafting rolls and not take up table time is a huge boon.

Thank you!!

3 hours ago, Ahrimon said:

I've known players that could take an hour crafting off of one or two rolls. If that works for you and your group then that's great. Many don't find that enjoyable. So a player can be in email/chat/messenger conversations with their GM for all of their crafting and mundane shopping rolls and be ready to jump right into the game when they get to the table. And there's no concern about integrity of the dice since every roll is right there for the GM to see.

The option is there for the gamers that want to use it. Dismissing it outright because it's not your play style is hardly constructive.

Ummmmm, did you actually read what wrote? Did anyone? I said roll the dice at the table, record the results, and then if they want to decide between sessions how to spend it that's fine. There is no need to roll the dice outside the session. If someone is going to take time deciding how to spend the results in between that's fine. We aren't talking about how long it takes some one to make that decision. We aren't talking about what people who play remotely do. We aren't talking about roll playing versus role playing, we are talking about a PC making skill checks when no one is watching. There is no need because of time crunch to simply generate a dice pool result. There is no role play issue when people are rolling it by themselves anyway. It is a PC engaging in something the OP said they weren't comfortable with and the OP was right.

31 minutes ago, 2P51 said:

Ummmmm, did you actually read what wrote? Did anyone? I said roll the dice at the table, record the results, and then if they want to decide between sessions how to spend it that's fine. There is no need to roll the dice outside the session.

I er ah...hey, your boat floats, that's great. Yes, I read what you said, like I always do! But you're dealing in absolutes here and frankly that's just not how this works. I'm very happy other solutions have cropped up for those of us with less than ideal gaming circumstances. Surely it's a big enough world for more than one opinion on the matter.

18 hours ago, 2P51 said:

Ummmmm, did you actually read what wrote? Did anyone? I said roll the dice at the table, record the results, and then if they want to decide between sessions how to spend it that's fine. There is no need to roll the dice outside the session. If someone is going to take time deciding how to spend the results in between that's fine. We aren't talking about how long it takes some one to make that decision. We aren't talking about what people who play remotely do. We aren't talking about roll playing versus role playing, we are talking about a PC making skill checks when no one is watching. There is no need because of time crunch to simply generate a dice pool result. There is no role play issue when people are rolling it by themselves anyway. It is a PC engaging in something the OP said they weren't comfortable with and the OP was right.

The OP had an issue with their player that they worked out after the forum dialog had started. Had that player used an online roller with integrity built in there may well have never been a problem, but we don't know that. The OPs problem was solved, and most of us have moved the conversation into a more general options and solutions for making rolls away from the table.

I read what you wrote, but I think that you're taking an absolute view that comes across, to me at least, as OneTrueWayims and everything else is BadWrongFun. But for arguments sake, what dice should the player roll before they go? How many times? What skill? The difficulty depends on rarity and restriction but he might not know what he wants. I'll concede that the player can build a list of gear that he wants and do all of the rolls before the game starts. But that eats into game time and not everyone has that time to spare. But that doesn't work for crafting. Crafting isn't a one and done check. Especially if you are looking to craft something in particular. You can have successful checks that don't pan out to what you want, so there's numerous options to decide on at the spur of the moment. Crafting an item can easily eat up time for a more thoughtful player and again, not every group has that time to kill at the table.

You say time isn't an issue in the argument for using a dice roller but it most certainly is. Using a dice roller can save a ton of time that can better be used at the table by shifting mundane rolls away from the table.

But for you it seems that it comes down to a player making a check when no one is watching, which while technically true is disingenuous at best. Most online rollers include measures to ensure integrity so the argument against cheating players doesn't stand. What if the player messaged the GM what they wanted to do, the GM built the pool and then messaged the player the results? Would you also be opposed to that?

It's not your cup of tea that's cool. You don't have to use it or allow it. But don't try to say that it should never be allowed and/or should never be used by anyone anywhere when there are plenty of valid reasons to use it and groups that find it a perfectly acceptable method of running their game.

26 minutes ago, Ahrimon said:

It's not your cup of tea that's cool. You don't have to use it or allow it. But don't try to say that it should never be allowed and/or should never be used by anyone anywhere when there are plenty of valid reasons to use it and groups that find it a perfectly acceptable method of running their game.

I'll say whatever I want to say. You don't like it, tough.