I have a player who likes to find as many loopholes and vague rules as he can to try to get his way. He finally went too far. He was making a new character and was telling me about all the gear he had. When i asked him about how his character had all this OP gear he said his character made it. Meaning he did mechanics checks outside of a session and with out me there to check all the rules.

How do i handle this?

****Pirate waves goodbye*****

Seriously not much differently I'd just tell him no. Nothing dramatic, just no.

This is a good illustration of why I want to find the person who first thought it was a good idea to introduce item crafting into tabletop RPG's so that I can punch him in the face. But I digress.

Say no. If he wants an explanation, talk to him about it.

And if that doesn't work and it continues to be a problem, you can always boot him from the game. But talk to him first.

Use the rules too: "The GM's word is final" - EotE Core, page 9.

If you want to allow the player to craft his starting gear that's totally fine, but he's gotta roll everything in front of you and the group for fairness and transparency.

It's no different than if you ended a session mid-combat on a player's turn, and he came back next session and said "I went ahead and made my attack roll at home. I got 5 success and 4 Triumphs."

If the GM didn't see it, it didn't happen. That kind of behaviour is unacceptable. It will only get worse if you ignore it. It can have long lasting ramifications for you game; he will piss off other players and they might drop out, he will influence other players and they will become as bad as him or, he will get worse and worse and come up with more and more convoluted ways to "win" at the game that will make the game boring for you to run.

Best to talk to the guy. Let him know that that kind of behaviour is not welcome in your game and if he doesn't like it he can find a different game. I know that sounds harsh, but if you want the game to keep running, it is better to deal with the Rules Lawyer quickly. If he is willing to curb his behaviour make sure he knows the "GM rulings supersede all rules" as that way he can't sit up coming up with dumb ways to jank your game.

If you do want to run crafting and have rolls be made away from the table, use this site . Players and GMs can make transparent rolls away from the table here. Make sure they don't go do anything dickish like make several accounts for rolling though Sounds like your Rules Lawyer might think of that kind of thing.

Ill jump in to agree with everyone, if its not in front of the GM then it didn't happen. But as inyourpants said Orokos is your friend. Orokos is awesome for dice rolls between sessions. Be sure to enforce a strict policy on requiring the Campaign and character names to be filled in, it will allow you to see every single roll that Player/PC made and catch them out when they try rerolling. If he is keen enough to be making a character at home then don't snuff out that fun, just give them the tools to do it without the temptation of cheating.

Using https://dice.owenmead.com/ my group's tech was able to roll and preserve the results for our GM to look over, which solved this problem - with the GM's blessing of course.

Even when you're playing with buddies you trust, it's customary to have the GM present when rolls of this nature are in play.

Not just no, but heck no. Inform the player that manipulating the rules set will simply get them booted. If they argue, just say 'Can I see your character?' then inform them they can come back next game. If they do it again tell them there isnt a next game for them.

That sort of behavor isnt acceptable

In the words of Will Smith...

"Aw, HELL no!"

This isn't so much the player being a rules lawyer as the thread title might suggest, but instead him being a power-gaming little snot.

As the others have said, unless the dice rolls occurred in front of the GM, especially for something like this, then they never happened.

Simply tell the player that no, he can't have his OP'd gear unless he makes the actual dice rolls in front of you, and accepts the consequences there in. If he's not willing to do that, then it's probably best to nip a problem player in the bud and simply inform him that he has no place at your gaming table.

Let him keep it... between first and second session say 'I did a quick encounter for you all at home on my own, your ship with ALL YOUR GEAR ON IT has been stolen by a shipjacker.. sh** happens...

Seriously, this why our first session of any game is the PC creation night.

2 hours ago, ExpandingUniverse said:

Let him keep it... between first and second session say 'I did a quick encounter for you all at home on my own, your ship with ALL YOUR GEAR ON IT has been stolen by a shipjacker.. sh** happens...

Seriously, this why our first session of any game is the PC creation night.

It might be easier to teach the lesson with a frank discussion rather than passive aggressive GMing.

Yeah, my two cents is NO...roll it all out in front of you....then figure out how he PAID for all that crafting...its still not free...

...or if you want to continue the passive-aggression...first fight is against a pile of Nemeses...use every Despair to break a new piece of equipment, run it out of ammo etc...add lots of setback for "All of that custom gear"

But shortest fastest route is "NO"...any reasonable person will understand and be willing to make the rolls...if he refuses, boot him form the game...that's some unbalancing ****...

Back during the Saga days, had a player roll an attack and damage during a game. I asked what weapon. Him: "Lanvarok". Me: "What?" Him: "I bought it with my credits." Me: "You just went out and bought a 2,000 year old SITH weapon? Just like that?" Him: "It's in the book..." ME: "Yeah, no."

4 hours ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

This isn't so much the player being a rules lawyer as the thread title might suggest, but instead him being a power-gaming little snot.

The rolling with out me there is only his latest shenanigan. The bigger issue i have is the the fact he likes to find loopholes to create gear that is op.

The other problem i have is the fact that we play at his place. If i boot him from the game then we really don't have a place to play anymore.

Find another place to play then...Friendly Local Game stores often have table space, otherwise that is fast becoming a toxic/abusive relationship...

26 minutes ago, HistoryGuy said:

The other problem i have is the fact that we play at his place. If i boot him from the game then we really don't have a place to play anymore.

Everyone brings something to the game. Be it a pizza, beer/soda, snacks, the place, the story, or just your character. Those things should not be excuses for bad behavior or traded for benefits at the cost of any one else.

Have an adult conversation. Let him know what is unacceptable to you as the GM, why it is unacceptable, and try to reach a middle ground. Like crafting equipment, if you are ok with him crafting gear pre-game, just have him make the rolls while you are there or use a online dice roller so you can see the results. Make sure you understand the crafting rules if you think he is trying to pull one over on ya or alter them maliciously.

The important thing is to work with him and reach a place you both can accept. If that isn't possible for some reason, then full stop, do not pass go, do not collect $200. That means the game will not work as is. If you still want him as part of the group maybe offer to let someone else GM, if you are set on GMing (or none of the others are willing to), then politely and kindly remind him that while the GM is not always right, they always get the final say. Make your call as GM, but try to be fair, honest, and reasonable with the players.

Yeah, pretty much what everyone else said, but as a counter point this is not behavior of a Rules Lawyer (I'm an avid Rules Lawyer myself btw) but this behavior is indicative of a cheater.

As a GM you are the final arbiter and if you didn't see the dice fall, it didn't happen.

Hopefully you all are adults and can work through this. If he's not an adult, then you don't need that aggravation at your table. Even it your table is his table. (On pains of repetition, Find a new table).

I gave my PC's a budget. I gave them more than the starting amount. After that... the checks must be made at the table and parts money spent on and found. That is in the rules.

55 minutes ago, HistoryGuy said:

The rolling with out me there is only his latest shenanigan. The bigger issue i have is the the fact he likes to find loopholes to create gear that is op.

The other problem i have is the fact that we play at his place. If i boot him from the game then we really don't have a place to play anymore.

This is another reason for a frank, friendly chat over any sort of in-game consequences. No sense ending a friendship over someone who likes to exploit the system. If only you could leverage his power to help the games, eh?

Ya I'd sit down make a list of the things he does that are causing problems, focus on the big ones, the things that are threatening your gaming group, like making rolls without you. take the top 5 or so sit down with him and be formal. tell him your talking to him as his GM; tell him that this isn't addressed it could break the group. go over those 5 or so points with him, make sure he understands that these things need to change, then try to find a solution for each one together. for instance that dice roller page themensch talked about.

Try and find out why he's doing this, what is the root desire? does he want to be the knight in shining armor, pulling out the surprise op gear to save the party? ok, work with him to engineer that scene. does he want to impress you and the party with how much he knows about the game system? fine let him slowly craft the mother of all weapons but let him know its getting "deus ex machina'd" out after the scene. the point is to find out what hes trying to get out of the game and find a way to give it to him, that works for everybody.

I would also talk to him about the nature of the game, its not about playing and winning, its about telling a awesome story that's also interactive. (at least for me, and my group)

2 hours ago, HistoryGuy said:

The rolling with out me there is only his latest shenanigan. The bigger issue i have is the the fact he likes to find loopholes to create gear that is op.

First off: What loopholes? Examples please.

Second: You can always start treating gear like gear. Not just for him but everyone. Start using threat and despair to lose it, break it, drop it while hanging above lava. One of the issues you see is so many RPGs, tabletop and electronic, treat gear as an extension of the player character to the point that it's just assumed that once a character has something they won't lose it till the player voluntary disposed of it.

Sometimes out of game rolls are ok, if my group has a few weeks of in game time and the techie wants to spend all of that time rolling 20 different checks to make the perfect new gizmo or widget i'll generally let them do it with in reason. I've crafted with my outlaw tech and the last thing i want to do is sit there and watch someone play out 20 days of down time rolling and rolling and rolling and rolling and rolling to build up removed set back, or easier construction, or schematics just to be able to get the one final result they want. You can generally look at what the end product is and tell how many times it took to get there. And as long as they are honest people and tracked the money/time correctly its fine for the odd bit and bob they might want

If they come back with 20 different awesome new things that magically cost pennies i'll just say no. If the player is just abusing the system its generally obvious, but most players i deal with are generally honest so i dont put to much thought into it. But if he's crafting just to game the system then a simple "no you can make something in front of me, or buy it like normal" should be enough to stop any issues there

I made sure to do my Crafting rolls with my GM before game day...then again we have the benefit of being in several groups together with downtime between games to get stuff done.

1 hour ago, Kamin_Majere said:

Sometimes out of game rolls are ok, if my group has a few weeks of in game time and the techie wants to spend all of that time rolling 20 different checks to make the perfect new gizmo or widget i'll generally let them do it with in reason. I've crafted with my outlaw tech and the last thing i want to do is sit there and watch someone play out 20 days of down time rolling and rolling and rolling and rolling and rolling to build up removed set back, or easier construction, or schematics just to be able to get the one final result they want. You can generally look at what the end product is and tell how many times it took to get there. And as long as they are honest people and tracked the money/time correctly its fine for the odd bit and bob they might want

If they come back with 20 different awesome new things that magically cost pennies i'll just say no. If the player is just abusing the system its generally obvious, but most players i deal with are generally honest so i dont put to much thought into it. But if he's crafting just to game the system then a simple "no you can make something in front of me, or buy it like normal" should be enough to stop any issues there

That is a rather naive way of looking at it. It is like having a "fair usage" policy on adding janky equipment to your inventory for free You are much better off making away from table rolls with an online roller that everyone can view. It will keep your game more transparent and it will make sure your GM doesn't get fed up with people turning up after crafting "I WIN!" guns.

2 hours ago, Ghostofman said:

First off: What loopholes? Examples please.

He built a vibrosword with a concealed lightsaber. He has the Sentinel source book and assured me it was feasible. However he was explaining it to me and i was thinking about how lightsabers work and the whole time I'm thinking, "This feels wrong somehow."