I'd prefer them to get the Shadowlands/Fu Leng threat out of the way and move on to new threats. Ideally, threats that don't involve some kind of ancient evil monstrosity with a grudge against Rokugan for because reasons. More mundane threats would be nice, like a foreign invasion or something. Or a newly crowned Emperor who wishes to reach out of Rokugan instead of keep the borders closed.

2 hours ago, Swordbreaker said:

I'd prefer them to get the Shadowlands/Fu Leng threat out of the way and move on to new threats. Ideally, threats that don't involve some kind of ancient evil monstrosity with a grudge against Rokugan for because reasons. More mundane threats would be nice, like a foreign invasion or something. Or a newly crowned Emperor who wishes to reach out of Rokugan instead of keep the borders closed.

I think the Empire needs both. I doubt the Shadowlands will ever truly be defeated (just as none of the Great Clans will ever be permanently destroyed), but having them wax and wane as a threat so that other threats can be addressed would be nice.

Being new to this version and a long time Scorpion player in the original version I have 2 questions to ask.

1st

Are the Scorpions sworn to the Emperor like all the other clans? or are they still sworn to the Empire. They are the underhand of the Emperor, but their allegiance in the original game was to the throne itself, not the Emperor.

2nd

When I first read that FFG was taking control of L5R, they said the were going to honor the history of the game. They do this by just dumping 25 years of history & starting the game over? or am I missing something?

On 5/26/2018 at 11:16 AM, Mrtwisty said:

Being new to this version and a long time Scorpion player in the original version I have 2 questions to ask.

2nd

When I first read that FFG was taking control of L5R, they said the were going to honor the history of the game. They do this by just dumping 25 years of history & starting the game over? or am I missing something?

Yes they dumped the excess baggage that 25 years of odd story choices had saddled them with and have a clean slate to work from. They also went back to the more popular pre-Clan War setting allowing them to use the iconic and game defining characters and tell an alternate version of the original story. Some will be upset that favorite characters from later timelines may not be back but from a story and business standpoint this was probably the better way to go than the corner following the AEG timeline would have written them into.

On 5/26/2018 at 11:16 AM, Mrtwisty said:

1st

Are the Scorpions sworn to the Emperor like all the other clans? or are they still sworn to the Empire. They are the underhand of the Emperor, but their allegiance in the original game was to the throne itself, not the Emperor.

The allegiance of the Scorpion Clan daimyo (better known as the Clan Champion) is owed, just as it is for any samurai, to his (or her, but I'll just use the male pronouns to avoid extra verbage) lord. The lord of a Clan Champion is the Emperor. So, in a technical sense, the Scorpion Clan Champion owes his allegiance to the Emperor; by extension, all other Scorpion, being vassals of the Champion, likewise owe their allegiance "up the chain", to the Champion and, from there, to the Emperor. This is only fitting, after all, since the Emperor is the scion of Tengoku, the avatar of the Celestial Heavens on earth.

HOWEVER...at the level of Imperial politics represented by a Clan Champion, the situation is, of course, somewhat more complex and nuanced. For example, in the original story, Bayushi Shoju came to believe that he had to kill the Emperor in order to forestall a dire prophecy affecting the Empire. Shoju therefore effectively forswore his allegiance to the Emperor in order to preserve a "greater good" on behalf of the Empire as a whole. This would be a clear case of putting the good of the Throne before loyalty to the Emperor--still treason, but treason for the best of reasons. Now, we know how that turned out--Shoju actually set into motion the events he was trying to prevent, by killing his Emperor and friend, making him a "tragic, villainous hero" (or words to that effect, anyway). And he wasn't the only one who found himself caught between loyalties--when Hantei XXXIX took the Throne, the Lion Clan underwent a schism, with some turning against the Emperor, while others saw their duty to stand by their Emperor, no matter how horrible he might be. This echoes the situation faced by the Empire and the Clans under Hantei XVI, the Steel Chrysanthemum, who was paranoid and delusional i.e. bats**t crazy. The Empire and its samurai did their best to put up with the Steel Chrysanthemum's "antics" (there's that loyalty to the Emperor) but, after he had his own mother killed, they'd had enough and deposed him (by killing him).

So, the best answer here is that the Scorpion are loyal to the Emperor first and foremost...until they're not, and for reasons that are, at their heart, good (i.e. Shoju) or bad (i.e. the Gozoku conspiracy) decide that loyalty to the Empire, or someone/something other than the Emperor, anyway, is the way to go.

The Allegiance of the Scorpion Clan Champion, or any Scorpion for that matter, is not to "his or her lord". They are sworn to protect the Empire at all cost and above all others. Hantei made Bayushi swear to this on the day Hantei became the 1st Emperor. As long as their lords interest is whats best for the Empire a Scorpion will carry out their wishes, once it's not in the best interest of the Empire, that lord is s**t out of luck. That is why Shoju killed Hantei XXXVIII, his best friend no less, because of the prophecy that the Hantei was going to be responsible for bringing Fu Leng back. Go back and read any fiction with the Scorpions, they are always doing things for "the Empire".

Now in this version of the game that does not seem to be the case. **** I am still trying to wrap my mind around having to worry about my honor score as a Scorpion player. I don't thinks it's fair that I have to worry about honor when I am the one who is doing all the underhanded dirty stuff that no one else wants to do. I can only imagine what it will be like for the Spiders if the bring them into the game, those guys made the Scorpions look like saints when it came to honor.

Based on current design trends, I propose Spider has 6 starting honor and gets abilities that unlock at 15+ honor. In their quest to gain recognition they must at least appear honorable. And then they accidentally become an honor rocket clan. ?

16 hours ago, Mrtwisty said:

The Allegiance of the Scorpion Clan Champion, or any Scorpion for that matter, is not to "his or her lord". They are sworn to protect the Empire at all cost and above all others. Hantei made Bayushi swear to this on the day Hantei became the 1st Emperor. As long as their lords interest is whats best for the Empire a Scorpion will carry out their wishes, once it's not in the best interest of the Empire, that lord is s**t out of luck. That is why Shoju killed Hantei XXXVIII, his best friend no less, because of the prophecy that the Hantei was going to be responsible for bringing Fu Leng back. Go back and read any fiction with the Scorpions, they are always doing things for "the Empire".

No, the allegiance of the Scorpion Champion is to his lord. He doesn't get some sort of special pass just by being Scorpion. When Hantei asked Bayushi to do those things that are necessary, but not necessarily honorable, for the good of the Empire, Bayushi replied, "I will be YOUR villain, Hantei." Emphasis is mine--"YOUR villain", not "the Empire's villain" or "the Throne's villain" or something like that. This is supported by the AEG fiction; for example, this is from "Dawn of the Empire" Part 1:

The birth of Rokugan was not an easy time, but in the end there was peace. Each of the Kami came to serve a clan, and each of these clans swore its fealty to Hantei. Lady Doji became the founder of the Crane Clan, and her followers created art and culture. Lord Akodo became the founder of the Lion Clan; his followers were warriors and it became their first duty to purge all those who would not obey the Hantei’s rule. The twins, Shiba and Bayushi, became the lords of the Phoenix and Scorpion clans respectively, one the master of knowledge and the other the master of secrets. Lady Shinjo, now leader of the Ki-Rin Clan, guarded the Empire’s northwest border, while Lord Hida and his newly founded Crab Clan guarded the south. Lord Togashi accepted no duty from his brother and was given none, nor did he seek followers. He merely retreated into the mountains, where inevitably those who sought his unmatched wisdom came to him.

Again, emphasis mine. Each clan (through its Kami) "swore its fealty to Hantei". Again, fealty is owed to one's lord. That's the fundamental basis of how the political system of Rokugan work (and because of that, the Empire's culture, economics, social policies and activities, and so on).

Like I said, this is the "pure" reality. In fact, samurai are people and do all the things that people do, good, bad and indifferent. Sometimes they hold absolute allegiance to the Emperor (e.g. the Lion who chose to follow the Tainted Hantei XXXIX because he was the Emperor; the Empire who put up with the Steel Chrysanthemum for so long). Sometimes they don't (the Lion who DIDN'T support or follow Hantei XXXIX; the Empire when they finally got sick of the Steel Chrysanthemum's s**t; Shoju when he thought he was heading off a dire prophecy). This was true for ALL the Clans, at various times and in the person of various individuals, not just the Scorpion. You'll find "for the Empire!" thinking and actions all over the old fiction. This doesn't even particularly mean a choice was being made to put the Empire above the Emperor (although sometimes it was). In many cases, Emperor and Empire were taken to be one in the same. In any case, this is where the story ultimately comes from--the fact that, regardless of their ideals, samurai are people and people are imperfect.

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Now in this version of the game that does not seem to be the case. **** I am still trying to wrap my mind around having to worry about my honor score as a Scorpion player. I don't thinks it's fair that I have to worry about honor when I am the one who is doing all the underhanded dirty stuff that no one else wants to do. I can only imagine what it will be like for the Spiders if the bring them into the game, those guys made the Scorpions look like saints when it came to honor.

I used to play Scorpion--it and the Shadowlands were my go-to clans once the Ninja/Dark Path of Shadow faction was retired from the game. I worried about my honor score all the time. Even if I was playing the original Scorpion SH, or the similar "Hidden Catacombs", I watched my honor closely (for those not familiar, these SH's didn't have you lose when you hit 0 honor; instead, you stayed in the game but your province strength dropped to 0). A 0 PS could be crippling, and end your game REALLY fast, if you weren't playing to accommodate it.

The fact is that you can't have a faction in the new game mechanically that somehow "ignores honor", simply because honor is built so fundamentally into things like the Draw mechanic with the honor dials (it's a far worse problem with the Shadowlands; not sure how they'd handle that, if they ever decide to make the Horde a playable faction.) But even putting mechanics aside, the Empire as a whole has only so much tolerance for the dishonorable shenanigans they'll accept before turning on the miscreant. They eventually took down Hantei XXXIX, even though he was the legitimate Emperor. They killed the Steel Chrysanthemum after he had his own family and mom executed. And they didn't line up after the Scorpion Clan coup to hear Shoju's explanation about why he killed the Emperor and seized power, and then say, "OH, okay! Well, you had the best of intentions and, in any case, you're Scorpion, so that gives you a pass...carry on then!" Instead, they crushed and then eliminated the Scorpion as a clan. THAT'S what happens when you hit 0 honor in the game.