Just now, Danwarr said:

From the AMA and Preview info it looks like Honored and Dishonored states last until that character leaves play or is targeted by another Honored/Dishonored effect.

That's what I thought, I just find myself second guessing certain things if it's something that might be a false memory from the old game.

1 minute ago, Kiseki said:

That's what I thought, I just find myself second guessing certain things if it's something that might be a false memory from the old game.

Given the general implication I've seen of honor gain/loss from honored/dishonored status, I think it seems more likely. I don't know where I really picked that up from, but I could see it being "If a dishonored character leaves play, lose their glory in honor. If an Honored character leaves play, gain their glory in honor."

So you'd like to keep them honored until their fate runs out.

2 minutes ago, Mirith said:

Given the general implication I've seen of honor gain/loss from honored/dishonored status, I think it seems more likely. I don't know where I really picked that up from, but I could see it being "If a dishonored character leaves play, lose their glory in honor. If an Honored character leaves play, gain their glory in honor."

So you'd like to keep them honored until their fate runs out.

From the Product Info page

Quote

Fire — Choose a character in play and honor or dishonor that character. (Honoring or dishonoring a character has a potent effect on that character’s skill, and causes you to gain or lose honor when that character leaves play .)

Just now, Danwarr said:

From the Product Info page

That would be why, then!

1 hour ago, McDermott said:

Ivory edition came with a massive rule set change and a massive design philosophy change.

First and foremost gold pooling altered the way you purchased things. You really didn't have to think about how you'd assign your holdings as much, and raw gold amount became more important. This came with the design philosophy change that every clan should pay the same gold for each point of force on a personality. This point IMO is where design really crapped the bed. They didn't change who went first, so suddenly clans that always went first were producing force at the same rate as clans that always went second. They also removed the blood money rule (where you could pay extra to ignore honor requirements on personalities and proceeded to print otherwise playable personalities that required 2-3 turns of proclaiming your 1 to 2 ph personalities before you could buy a 3/3 with an ability. Fate wise it was basically an array of bow or straighten and +2 or -2 force pumps. Ivory edition was basically gold edition without any of the powerful or fun cards included. It was the Hida Kuroda nonexp of arcs.

Kuroda of arcs, hah! Savage, but true. Back when Ivory was coming out, I recall talking up L5R a lot to a friend. It's my favorite game, you have to try it, that sort of thing. One slow Sunday afternoon, we wandered up to a game store and dug into the learn to play set for Ivory, as I didn't have any of my old cards around. Imagine my disappointment. Gold float completely ruined the flow of the game, and the "+2f, -2f, +3f, pass" battles were very bland and uninteresting. I don't think we touched it again.

50 minutes ago, Dreilide said:

Kuroda of arcs, hah! Savage, but true. Back when Ivory was coming out, I recall talking up L5R a lot to a friend. It's my favorite game, you have to try it, that sort of thing. One slow Sunday afternoon, we wandered up to a game store and dug into the learn to play set for Ivory, as I didn't have any of my old cards around. Imagine my disappointment. Gold float completely ruined the flow of the game, and the "+2f, -2f, +3f, pass" battles were very bland and uninteresting. I don't think we touched it again.

Wasn't that the Learn to Play set that quickly got half it's cards banned? (All the Ashigaru IRC)

Yea, that fumble killed my faith in AEG, even after I also talked up the game for Ivory

2 hours ago, Ryoshun Higoka said:

They likely leave with the character, though. Or maybe not! They may stick around to be attached to someone else - that would be a neat, flavorful trick, a la someone picking up their father's sword...!

I could easily see that being a keyword, or if FFG is trying to reduce the number of keywords, an ability on specific items.

53 minutes ago, Dreilide said:

Kuroda of arcs, hah! Savage, but true. Back when Ivory was coming out, I recall talking up L5R a lot to a friend. It's my favorite game, you have to try it, that sort of thing. One slow Sunday afternoon, we wandered up to a game store and dug into the learn to play set for Ivory, as I didn't have any of my old cards around. Imagine my disappointment. Gold float completely ruined the flow of the game, and the "+2f, -2f, +3f, pass" battles were very bland and uninteresting. I don't think we touched it again.

Shoulda gone with Mantis...

1 hour ago, McDermott said:

Ivory edition came with a massive rule set change and a massive design philosophy change.

First and foremost gold pooling altered the way you purchased things. You really didn't have to think about how you'd assign your holdings as much, and raw gold amount became more important. This came with the design philosophy change that every clan should pay the same gold for each point of force on a personality. This point IMO is where design really crapped the bed. They didn't change who went first, so suddenly clans that always went first were producing force at the same rate as clans that always went second. They also removed the blood money rule (where you could pay extra to ignore honor requirements on personalities and proceeded to print otherwise playable personalities that required 2-3 turns of proclaiming your 1 to 2 ph personalities before you could buy a 3/3 with an ability. Fate wise it was basically an array of bow or straighten and +2 or -2 force pumps. Ivory edition was basically gold edition without any of the powerful or fun cards included. It was the Hida Kuroda nonexp of arcs.

But honestly, second part of Ivory (Twenty Festivals) was much, much better. Personalities got better actions, new themes appeared for every clan, Fate cards became most interesting. But except gold scheme much more interesting change of IvE+ was making Equiping as Open action. In midgame (or if you was goldflooded) you was able to armour your guys during oponents turn, and ready them to defend. That was huge change of game tempo becasue it forced attackers to gather forces instead spreading them against naked guys.

And all of this was just introduction for incoming Onyx who fixed much more, including additional 2 for 2 Legacy Holding, increasing average Province Strength of Stronghold's B sides, making all actions as Open (really surprising Ambush anyone?), totally removing "free gold" stuff, adding additional single gold boost for one Holding for players going second but for price of fliping their Stronghold back to Side A, making Unicorn SH 4G only, Naga with amazing comboistic Stronghold, much more interesting, deadly actions etc. Game was just meant to be like old good funny L5R but with new post Ivory ruleset. That difference between boring and bland Ivory and Onyx. was just abyssal.

As someone who had opportunity to play tens if not hundreds of Onyx games have to say that knowledge of where this game ended was overwhelming.

3 minutes ago, kempy said:

But honestly, second part of Ivory (Twenty Festivals) was much, much better. Personalities got better actions, new themes appeared for every clan, Fate cards became most interesting. But except gold scheme much more interesting change of IvE+ was making Equiping as Open action. In midgame (or if you was goldflooded) you was able to armour your guys during oponents turn, and ready them to defend. That was huge change of game tempo becasue it forced attackers to gather forces instead spreading them against naked guys.

And all of this was just introduction for incoming Onyx who fixed much more, including additional 2 for 2 Legacy Holding, increasing average Province Strength of Stronghold's B sides, making all actions as Open (really surprising Ambush anyone?), totally removing "free gold" stuff, adding additional single gold boost for one Holding for players going second but for price of fliping their Stronghold back to Side A, making Unicorn SH 4G only, Naga with amazing comboistic Stronghold, much more interesting, deadly actions etc. Game was just meant to be like old good funny L5R but with new post Ivory ruleset. That difference between boring and bland Ivory and Onyx. was just abyssal.

As someone who had opportunity to play tens if not hundreds of Onyx games have to say that knowledge of where this game ended was overwhelming.

Unicorn as a 4G Stronghold?! Now I almost wish we had gotten to see Onyx...

1 minute ago, JJ48 said:

Unicorn as a 4G holding?! Now I almost wish we had gotten to see Onyx...

Making Unicorn's Stronghold producing 4G on both sides only. It's just abbreviation.

Twenty Festivals was looking good, I agree. It's too bad we never really got to see how the Onyx environment would have played out.

3 minutes ago, Ryoshun Higoka said:

Twenty Festivals was looking good, I agree. It's too bad we never really got to see how the Onyx environment would have played out.

The mechanics sounded great, but honestly the story stuff I was hearing just killed any interest in Onyx for me, personally.

1 minute ago, JJ48 said:

The mechanics sounded great, but honestly the story stuff I was hearing just killed any interest in Onyx for me, personally.

Yeah, the story stuff (at least from the Onyx stuff that was released as a pdf after the sale) looked like a world-wide board-wipe. Everybody dies, everything gets grimdark. I don't have an objection to the story's direction (it seemed like a real-continuity KYD), but I completely understand if somebody else wouldn't be interested.

30 minutes ago, El_Ganso said:

Wasn't that the Learn to Play set that quickly got half it's cards banned? (All the Ashigaru IRC)

Which LTP set was that? Currency of War?

7 minutes ago, Ryoshun Higoka said:

Which LTP set was that? Currency of War?

A Matter of Honor, Crab vs. Lion.

1 hour ago, El_Ganso said:

Wasn't that the Learn to Play set that quickly got half it's cards banned? (All the Ashigaru IRC)

Yea, that fumble killed my faith in AEG, even after I also talked up the game for Ivory

47 minutes ago, Ryoshun Higoka said:

Which LTP set was that? Currency of War?

A Matter of Honor. The offending card was primarily Well Defended Farm. It was slightly more complicated, but in early Ivory, one could just pick a SH and fill it with ashigaru and have a competitive deck. Exotic Farmlands could turn 15 gold sitting around into +20F.

2 minutes ago, Iuchi Toshimo said:

A Matter of Honor. The offending card was primarily Well Defended Farm. It was slightly more complicated, but in early Ivory, one could just pick a SH and fill it with ashigaru and have a competitive deck.

Hm. I can see that. I never picked up that set and it never really entered the meta in my area, so I never ran into that particular buzzsaw.

2 hours ago, kempy said:

But honestly, second part of Ivory (Twenty Festivals) was much, much better. Personalities got better actions, new themes appeared for every clan, Fate cards became most interesting. But except gold scheme much more interesting change of IvE+ was making Equiping as Open action. In midgame (or if you was goldflooded) you was able to armour your guys during oponents turn, and ready them to defend. That was huge change of game tempo becasue it forced attackers to gather forces instead spreading them against naked guys.

And all of this was just introduction for incoming Onyx who fixed much more, including additional 2 for 2 Legacy Holding, increasing average Province Strength of Stronghold's B sides, making all actions as Open (really surprising Ambush anyone?), totally removing "free gold" stuff, adding additional single gold boost for one Holding for players going second but for price of fliping their Stronghold back to Side A, making Unicorn SH 4G only, Naga with amazing comboistic Stronghold, much more interesting, deadly actions etc. Game was just meant to be like old good funny L5R but with new post Ivory ruleset. That difference between boring and bland Ivory and Onyx. was just abyssal.

As someone who had opportunity to play tens if not hundreds of Onyx games have to say that knowledge of where this game ended was overwhelming.

Due respect but fixing it after long time playtest and design players point the problems out, you ignore them and go half an arc with ivory base is too little too late. There was a vast vast gulf that encompassed "better than ivory" and "As good as diamond or samurai edition". You don't really get kudos for making choices you were warned were bad choices then backtracking after the consequences of those choices manifest.

And due respect, adding factions after removing one with a current and passionate fanbase doesn't get kudos either. Bringing Naga back and killing mantis wasn't going to do the company favors. Naga as a faction were basically ratling+ lion military and had been gone for a decade+, their players had moved on to other games or factions. Maybe it was different in onyx but i kind of doubt they were designed without some sort of sliveresque strategy to the faction.

Pretty much everything I've seen on this LCG paints it as better mechanically than ivory.

31 minutes ago, McDermott said:

And due respect, adding factions after removing one with a current and passionate fanbase doesn't get kudos either. Bringing Naga back and killing mantis wasn't going to do the company favors. Naga as a faction were basically ratling+ lion military and had been gone for a decade+, their players had moved on to other games or factions. Maybe it was different in onyx but i kind of doubt they were designed without some sort of sliveresque strategy to the faction.

Pretty much everything I've seen on this LCG paints it as better mechanically than ivory.

Because they did it previously and it worked? I was also a "victim" of faction cut, they just did it a year after i entered a game. And? Heaven wasnt falling. I'm playing that game since then. Take a look around, ther're plenty of people who played Spider/Mantis and now they're gone as Clans but people still want to play L5R. How many really bitter words you hear about it? You can just live (and play) with hope they will be reincarnated in any way, but there's only hope atm. Same like, in theoretical Onyx metagame, players could think that they will try to reunite as Mantis again.

From technical point of view, in Onyx you had opportunity to play 100% Mantis deck filled only with 20F+ Mantis Personalities and Onyx+ reprints as Unaligned thanks to Moshi/Tsuruchi/etc. Senseis that gave clan alignment to various, selected clans. I had really effective Moshi Thunder deck out of Phoenix for example.

Naga in Onyx were meant mainly as midgame follower commander military, pearl shugenja military, both based on ranged/fear with many options to copy abilities from discards. That was refreshing in comparision with older Naga mechanics from the past. Personally i've found these decktypes much enjoyable than anything Mantis since... forever. No more stupid gold tricks.

5 hours ago, williamobrien said:

"Lion's Something Something" a 3/2 for 3 with Glory 1 and an Action

Well, the last timeline had the Lion's Pride

I'm inclined to say that Ivory was better than Twenty Festivals since a lot of good Emperor edition cards that were legal for Ivory stopped being legal in Twenty Festivals.

Though I think one of the big problems was having the editions only last one year. I feel it gave an impression of 'why bother picking up this game now, the rules are just going to change in a few months'.

45 minutes ago, shineyorkboy said:

I'm inclined to say that Ivory was better than Twenty Festivals since a lot of good Emperor edition cards that were legal for Ivory stopped being legal in Twenty Festivals.

Though I think one of the big problems was having the editions only last one year. I feel it gave an impression of 'why bother picking up this game now, the rules are just going to change in a few months'.

1) 20f was WAY better in terms of game play. A lot more actions that were relevant and were way more fun than 'I give that peep -2f' and 'I give that peep +2f' that was Ivory. It was so stupidly bland, I couldn't play it. So I didn't. I traveled to koteis to judge for TOs. I didn't wanna play in that boring ass environment. Especially when I go to one of the very first koteis in Ivory with a slightly modified starter deck and not only top cut with it, go undefeated all the way to top 4! That's just too fckn silly.

2) No arc lasted one year in the history of the game, iirc. Especially at the end. 20f was not an arc. Ivory was the arc. After Ivory arc was gonna be Onyx arc. 20f was only an expansion with (some) new strongholds in it. That's all. If you think of it in LCG terms, it was only a deluxe expansion. I think you are getting confused by the Extended, Standard, and Strict formats that got introduced in to the game.

8 minutes ago, Sparks Duh said:

1) 20f was WAY better in terms of game play. A lot more actions that were relevant and were way more fun than 'I give that peep -2f' and 'I give that peep +2f' that was Ivory. It was so stupidly bland, I couldn't play it. So I didn't. I traveled to koteis to judge for TOs. I didn't wanna play in that boring ass environment. Especially when I go to one of the very first koteis in Ivory with a slightly modified starter deck and not only top cut with it, go undefeated all the way to top 4! That's just too fckn silly.

2) No arc lasted one year in the history of the game, iirc. Especially at the end. 20f was not an arc. Ivory was the arc. After Ivory arc was gonna be Onyx arc. 20f was only an expansion with (some) new strongholds in it. That's all. If you think of it in LCG terms, it was only a deluxe expansion. I think you are getting confused by the Extended, Standard, and Strict formats that got introduced in to the game.

1) I don't recall Ivory being about force +/-'s as much as it was about bowing, straightening, and movement shenanigans to avoid contact with the enemy. And then 'The Coming Storm' made Crab dishonor viable and that saw me through the rest of the year.

Props to your skill, but I don't see how someone could stay competitive without using Emperor Edition cards. Guys like Nitoshi xp and Dark Naga xp were soooo good.

2) Ivory and 20f were definitely one year each. I was an effort to get op Emperor cards out of the environment as fast as possible. The last few sets of Emperor were dual bugged for Ivory, Ivory was dual bugged for 20f, and 20f was dual bugged for Onyx. They even came out with new Strongholds at the start of 20f.

34 minutes ago, shineyorkboy said:

2) Ivory and 20f were definitely one year each. I was an effort to get op Emperor cards out of the environment as fast as possible. The last few sets of Emperor were dual bugged for Ivory, Ivory was dual bugged for 20f, and 20f was dual bugged for Onyx. They even came out with new Strongholds at the start of 20f.

It's like you didn't even read my note 2. I'm telling you what it was. There's no debate on the subject, man.

6 minutes ago, Sparks Duh said:

It's like you didn't even read my note 2. I'm telling you what it was. There's no debate on the subject, man.

And I'm telling you you're wrong.