4 minutes ago, Ryoshun Higoka said:

That's a good point. I wonder if there's going to be a counter-balance for players who want to play weenie rush. Like, what's going to be this game's Gohei?

I believe we already have that! Matsu Berserker + Way of the Lion : 6 Military Skill. (then the Phoenix change the Conflict to a Political one )

The other option is the Doomed Shugenja, but he's Limited.

Just now, Sithborg said:

Not sure how I missed that. But, I am guessing that there will be a keyword for the unique characters that let them start with Fate on them. That seems like a logical position.

That's my thought, too. I don't know if it'll be a specific keyword ("Heroic X means the character starts with X Fate already on him when you purchase him!" or something like that), or if it'll just be a rule regarding Unique characters, or if there could even be a holding/strategy/whatever that allows you to place a Fate or two on a character you're bringing into play; but I'm sure there will be ways to get your big investments to stick around a couple turns without undermining the whole Fate system.

6 minutes ago, Tonbo Karasu said:

But if you put too much fate on a character (especially against Crab), you're asking for a Jade Tetsubo to the face.

Now, there's an interesting question. Do attachments still provide their Skill bonuses when bowed?

Crabs are going to be so much fun...

Well, there's a quote to take out of context!

I imagine putting a whole bunch of fate on a big character makes them a target. If we still have duels that discard characters, Hida Kisada with 6 tokens on him seems like it might be a tempting target, and in fact might be worth risking the -4 honor to save by focusing a 5. But then again, what if your basic duel only removes a fate token from the loser, killing them if they have none? Then a huge fate surplus is now a shield against dueling. There's just a lot we don't know yet.

Just now, Ryric said:

I imagine putting a whole bunch of fate on a big character makes them a target. If we still have duels that discard characters, Hida Kisada with 6 tokens on him seems like it might be a tempting target, and in fact might be worth risking the -4 honor to save by focusing a 5. But then again, what if your basic duel only removes a fate token from the loser, killing them if they have none? Then a huge fate surplus is now a shield against dueling. There's just a lot we don't know yet.

"There's a lot we don't know yet" - the rallying cry of this board.

"Will this be good?" "Will this mechanic work?" "Why are we all speculating like crazy about something we've seen, like, 2% of?"

And the whole board chimes in-

Hida Kisada with 6 fate tokens seems like a lot of lacking extra characters/holdings, less bodies to attack/defend and less playable conflict cards

21 minutes ago, Ryoshun Higoka said:

So, let's broach a topic that has absolutely no disagreement whatsoever... what's everybody think about the new Fate system?

From what little we've seen, I'm thinking it's an interesting mechanic - and really good catch by Ryric yesterday regarding some of the nuance of it - and I think it'll lead to some great in-game decision-making! Thoughts?

I think that it's the mechanic that is going to make newL5R the most different from anything that's ever come before. It opens up a lot of design space, makes for some really interesting give and take decision making, and changes the ebb and flow of the game.

I'll need to play with it to see how well I *like* it, but it's hard to argue that it is a pretty mold breaking mechanic for a CCG to adopt when every other game out there, and pretty much every other game that has come before, is about developing a permanent and overwhelming board.

7 minutes ago, Tonbo Karasu said:

But if you put too much fate on a character (especially against Crab), you're asking for a Jade Tetsubo to the face.

Now, there's an interesting question. Do attachments still provide their Skill bonuses when bowed?

I will say I like how many of the decisions seem to be more tactical during the game, rather than strategic in deck-building. In the old L5R, you'd occasionally have deck match-ups where your opponent's deck just crushes cheap personalities, or personalities with high personal honor, or other things that you didn't really have any control over after the game has started. Things like the Fate system and the Honor-bidding will hopefully allow for more changing tactics mid-stream, if necessary, and prevent a game from being more-or-less decided from the moment provinces are flipped.

(Again, not saying it happened very often, but when it did happen it was incredibly frustrating, so anything to reduce that is fine by me!)

6 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

That's my thought, too. I don't know if it'll be a specific keyword ("Heroic X means the character starts with X Fate already on him when you purchase him!" or something like that), or if it'll just be a rule regarding Unique characters, or if there could even be a holding/strategy/whatever that allows you to place a Fate or two on a character you're bringing into play; but I'm sure there will be ways to get your big investments to stick around a couple turns without undermining the whole Fate system.

I wouldn't be too surprised if unique characters get a fate put on them when coming into play.

Just now, Kiseki said:

pretty much every other game that has come before, is about developing a permanent and overwhelming board.

Good point - the transient nature of the board state will make L5R2 play very differently from most other games I've played. It's a little like the old Camelot game (the name of which escapes me) where you sent your knights out on quests, and whether they succeeded or not, they were gone for good. It led to people being a little reckless with their assignments of characters, but it was a fast, fun game.

Just now, JJ48 said:

I will say I like how many of the decisions seem to be more tactical during the game, rather than strategic in deck-building. In the old L5R, you'd occasionally have deck match-ups where your opponent's deck just crushes cheap personalities, or personalities with high personal honor, or other things that you didn't really have any control over after the game has started. Things like the Fate system and the Honor-bidding will hopefully allow for more changing tactics mid-stream, if necessary, and prevent a game from being more-or-less decided from the moment provinces are flipped.

(Again, not saying it happened very often, but when it did happen it was incredibly frustrating, so anything to reduce that is fine by me!)

Ah, memories of Gold edition dishonor decks playing against Shadowlands decks. Those matches were where I really learned how to be a control player instead of just playing solitaire and hitting the -20 bell.

29 minutes ago, Ryoshun Higoka said:

So, let's broach a topic that has absolutely no disagreement whatsoever... what's everybody think about the new Fate system?

From what little we've seen, I'm thinking it's an interesting mechanic - and really good catch by Ryric yesterday regarding some of the nuance of it - and I think it'll lead to some great in-game decision-making! Thoughts?

Honestly, the only thing I'm not liking about the fate system is the fact that it relies on tokens. I hate tokens with the passion of a thousand burning Yakamos.

2 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

I will say I like how many of the decisions seem to be more tactical during the game, rather than strategic in deck-building. In the old L5R, you'd occasionally have deck match-ups where your opponent's deck just crushes cheap personalities, or personalities with high personal honor, or other things that you didn't really have any control over after the game has started. Things like the Fate system and the Honor-bidding will hopefully allow for more changing tactics mid-stream, if necessary, and prevent a game from being more-or-less decided from the moment provinces are flipped.

(Again, not saying it happened very often, but when it did happen it was incredibly frustrating, so anything to reduce that is fine by me!)

Ugh. I played in a few of those. Not much fun - for either player, really. Even if you're crushing your opponent, knowing that you're only doing so because their deck isn't built to deal with your deck kind of cheapened the victory.

Just now, rzlittle said:

Honestly, the only thing I'm not liking about the fate system is the fact that it relies on tokens. I hate tokens with the passion of a thousand burning Yakamos.

Can we all agree to adopt the "Yakamo" as a standard unit of measurement? As in, "whew, it's like 2 1/2 Yakamos out there today!"

And sorry about the dislike for tokens. Fantasy Flight seems to want to depopulate entire rainforests for their cardboard, so I always expect a mess of tokens with every FFG game.

Just now, Ryoshun Higoka said:

Good point - the transient nature of the board state will make L5R2 play very differently from most other games I've played. It's a little like the old Camelot game (the name of which escapes me) where you sent your knights out on quests, and whether they succeeded or not, they were gone for good. It led to people being a little reckless with their assignments of characters, but it was a fast, fun game.

Sending out samurai on reckless quests seems ridiculously thematic.

Akodo General: Go take that castle.

Matsu Captain: Hai!

Akodo General: <snickers> I never liked that guy. I'm glad he's gone.

Matsu Captain: <pants> General-sama, the castle is ours. Everyone but me died in the attack.

6 minutes ago, Sithborg said:

Not sure how I missed that. But, I am guessing that there will be a keyword for the unique characters that let them start with Fate on them. That seems like a logical position.

I doubt that. I fully expect uniques and non-uniques to be priced in such a way that they are worth their base price for a single turn.

There is no need for a 6 Fate character that automatically come with 2 Fate tokens when they can just print the same character as costing 4 Fate and then giving the player the option of paying 2 more fate so they can last 2 turns.

Just now, Kiseki said:

Sending out samurai on reckless quests seems ridiculously thematic.

Akodo General: Go take that castle.

Matsu Captain: Hai!

Akodo General: <snickers> I never liked that guy. I'm glad he's gone.

Matsu Captain: <pants> General-sama, the castle is ours. Everyone but me died in the attack.

SO MANY TIMES

2 minutes ago, rzlittle said:

Honestly, the only thing I'm not liking about the fate system is the fact that it relies on tokens. I hate tokens with the passion of a thousand burning Yakamos.

Can I enquire, what do you prefer?

Also, how did you cope with Naga?!?

6 minutes ago, Ryric said:

I imagine putting a whole bunch of fate on a big character makes them a target. If we still have duels that discard characters, Hida Kisada with 6 tokens on him seems like it might be a tempting target, and in fact might be worth risking the -4 honor to save by focusing a 5. But then again, what if your basic duel only removes a fate token from the loser, killing them if they have none? Then a huge fate surplus is now a shield against dueling. There's just a lot we don't know yet.

Well, we already know there are some cards which target personalities with no tokens. I imagine there will also be some that target personalities with too many tokens. There should always be strategy involved, but there should also be ways to counter, if you have enough preparation.

...of course, as you point out, having to pay more to get all those tokens may itself be a pretty big penalty. Also, wasn't something said about all participants in a conflict bowing? So if I invest everything into one super-unit, I only get to make one attack, and my opponent could potentially make two attacks with no way for me to defend.

Just now, Ultimatecalibur said:

I doubt that. I fully expect uniques and non-uniques to be priced in such a way that they are worth their base price for a single turn.

There is no need for a 6 Fate character that automatically come with 2 Fate tokens when they can just print the same character as costing 4 Fate and then giving the player the option of paying 2 more fate so they can last 2 turns.

It's an interesting design space, definitely.

1 minute ago, rzlittle said:

Honestly, the only thing I'm not liking about the fate system is the fact that it relies on tokens. I hate tokens with the passion of a thousand burning Yakamos.

Eh, tokens have been around in L5R for a long time. There were starter decks somewhere around jade/Gold that came with glass bead tokens colored for your clan, which is why I have a bunch of white/black beads in a box. They came in handy when I played the short lived Wheel of Time ccg.

In an interview video the designers revealed that the rings are indeed each only usable once per turn - so you can't spam the one effect you like best, and you could choose a ring just to deny its use to your opponent.

4 minutes ago, Ryoshun Higoka said:

Ugh. I played in a few of those. Not much fun - for either player, really. Even if you're crushing your opponent, knowing that you're only doing so because their deck isn't built to deal with your deck kind of cheapened the victory.

I've known some people who go into a game (any game) with the mindset that they need to absolutely obliterate their opponent and leave them, from turn 1, not having a shred of hope.

Personally, I think that win, lose, or draw; games are best when they're close.

1 minute ago, Ultimatecalibur said:

I doubt that. I fully expect uniques and non-uniques to be priced in such a way that they are worth their base price for a single turn.

There is no need for a 6 Fate character that automatically come with 2 Fate tokens when they can just print the same character as costing 4 Fate and then giving the player the option of paying 2 more fate so they can last 2 turns.

Actually, there is a difference.

The 6-Fate that lasts 2 extra turns has less flexibility than a 4-Fate character and can be slightly more powerful.

1 minute ago, Ryric said:

Eh, tokens have been around in L5R for a long time. There were starter decks somewhere around jade/Gold that came with glass bead tokens colored for your clan, which is why I have a bunch of white/black beads in a box. They came in handy when I played the short lived Wheel of Time ccg.

In an interview video the designers revealed that the rings are indeed each only usable once per turn - so you can't spam the one effect you like best, and you could choose a ring just to deny its use to your opponent.

Obsidian Edition clan decks came with glass tokens for tracking Honor. And, yes, I can see why they would have been helpful for the WoT CCG. If ever there was a game to make you hate tokens...

1 minute ago, Tonbo Karasu said:

Can I enquire, what do you prefer?

Also, how did you cope with Naga?!?

When I'm playing a card game, I want my deck and maybe a dial or counter. I don't want to have to worry about a bunch of other niggly-bits to futz with. I never played naga, although I did play ratlings which did use tokens quite a bit.