My friend and I have been plying RTL and he may have found an exploit to win the game as heroes. Can you guys comment on how to counter this tactic?

The basic premise is that he can stay in a dungeon and die over and over until the campaign level reaches gold. With the FAQ rule of only being kicked out if the OL cycles the deck twice in a LEVEL, then its easy to sit in a dungeon for 3 levels, remove armors, put your heroes in harms way and die multiple times racking up enough CT to get the level to silver and gold in very few weeks!

This exploit makes it so that the OL can only buy a couple upgrades as the number of weeks in the campaign is limited to something like 3-4. Since all I hear about is how easy it is to win the final battle, would this not almost garauntee a win?

Here is the current situation as it came up:

Heroes: Runemaster thorn with earth pact, Laughin Boldar with "something I cant remember", Mordoc with Taunt and 5 armor with the ring of protection, Grey Ker with Marksman

OL: Spider Queen with Eternal Night Plot and the trap storage upgrade.

WEEK 1 - Heroes explore starfall forest. They get to level 3 and run away. CT is Heroes 8, OL 46. OL buys silver eldritch. Heroes got some nice copper weapons and armor. A crossbow for Grey Ker, the reach weapon for a melee, the crystal shield, plate mail armor, etc...

WEEK 2 - Heroes explore Thelvans Highway. We are currently stopped in the middle of level 2, The Throne Room. They have opened the door but are staying to get the treasure. The Giant is still alive and unhurt. OL has been killing the heroes alot! Current CT is Heroes have somewhere between 19 and 25, OL has somewhere around 120 or so. The OL deck is about 6-8 cards from cycling the first time.

I hope this is enough to explain the situation. The hero player says he might as well stay in this dungeon and allow the OL to Kill his heroes as much as possible and then get to level 3 to do it again to avoid the kickout. This will mean the we will be maybe a quarter of the way into silver at the end of week 2. He can start getting silver weapons next dungeon.

If he forgoes getting training and heads to another dungeon on week 3, he now is in silver. OL only can buy 1 upgrade for the beginning of week 3 making 2 for the game so far. Even if he decided to train once that only adds one more week allowing the OL 1 more upgrade.

Heroes can now pull the same stunt, hopefully getting at least 3 chests worth of silver items and exiting in week 4 in gold level.

Now they pull the same again, getting 3 chests of gold and sparking the final battle. 4 WEEKS - only 4 OL upgrades (with one already purchased).

What can the OL do to counter this? What upgrades could he buy with only 4 weeks. This isnt even long enough to talamir rush or do the plot.

Will the heroes be able to win the final battle? Would OL buying Avatar upgrades make a difference? What about focusing on treachery upgrades?

With so few upgrades allowed to the OL, it seems a viable tactic, but if the OL is doomed to lose even in this extreme strategy, in a final fight, then how is it worth playing?

Thanks for your input on this.

WHy would the OL attack them if they are being so retarded? Just don't kill them, no CT, no advancing the campaign, deck cycles, out they go.

Aye, nobody forces the OL to kill anything. He can just lock the heroes in with monsters all around them and wait for the decks to cycle. With so many conquest ahead, he'll get plenty of upgrades in the following game weeks while the heroes will not gain many conquest because they keep trying to lure the OL into killing them without success. This will lead to the heroes, in addition to giving the OL tons of upgrades, not having enough XP to buy skill upgrades.

In fact, the OL should have enough conquest now already that he can easily get all his Lieutenants out in the next few game weeks, and start ruining stuff all over the map, or quickly advance the plot.

because the heroes can just kill themselfes? but i dont know how they manage to get the proper equipment and skills in the few weeks?

Im sorry, maybe i am missing something here. So you are saying as the OL I should NOT kill the heroes then? That just sounds crazy, but I can see the point a bit. Makes the game kind of unfun then does it not? Dont get me wrong here. I thank you for the suggestion, its just a bit unothodoxed and I dont really get it yet.

So, If I dont kill the heroes, then they kill my guys, get all the treasure and glyphs as I can not fight back or risk getting the CT up. In essence the Heroes will get the CT level up in thier own favor then by getting all the dungeon goodies with the OL getting none and letting them win the dungeon?

I dont see how this works.

Basically If I dont kill them then he kills my guys and the CT advances either way. I guess it would limit how many CT they could gather after giving them the glyphs, chests and leaders, plus the couple of cycles, but I dont see how that is a valid strategy.

For example: If i stop killing them now and run away from them, they will eventually get all the goodies and leaders then get kicked out. We then go to week 3 and I go through the entire dungeon NOT killing them, they gain in a 3 level dungeon somewhere around 17-20+ CT per week + 12CT for OL for cycling the deck 4 times before the kickout (one cycle in 1st and 2nd level, 2 cycles in 3rd). Thats about 30+CT/week. This is definately slower and will add more weeks.

I think that this strat is not transparent and the heroes will instantly see my shift. In this case then they can feel confident at this point that they can gather more CT than the OL and thus win normally. As the heroes, they can then decide to rush and not cycle the deck in level 1-2, thus making the OL gain much less CT per week and to keep the OL in the strat he has chosen (NOT killing them) they can hangout in level 3 until they get kicked out. Are you suggesting that my 100+ CT lead I have right now will be enough to win via plot/overland map, etc...?

Sorry for the confusion.

@Turric4n: I guess that is my question. In just a few weeks that the tactic gives the heroes, will the Final Battle still be an insta-win? Granting that the heroes will have equpped enough copper, silver, and gold items to outfit most eveyone fairly well, but they will lack extra skills, fatigue, health, etc...

I never thought to consider that they could kill themselves also to keep the CT level rising at the highest rate. So basically there is nothing the OL can do to stop a 4 week final battle result.

True, the heroes can kill themselves as well.

Meh, I'd just stop playing with people who try to metagame like this. I play games for fun, and things that obviously were never intended do not belong to that category.

Alternatively, you can introduce the Divine Favour rule from SoB: Heroes are worth one less conquest for every 25 conquest the OL has more than the heroes (and one more conquest for every 25 conquest the heroes have more than the OL). This, while intended to fix imbalances and runaway leader syndromes, will fix your problem as well, because the OL simply does not gain conquest from dead (even 4-conquest) heroes anymore after he is 100 conquest ahead.

Bravo McWilley said:

Wow. Try to use your brain a bit more.

If the heros are standing around waiting to die, don't kill them. If they are legitamately playing, then of course kill them, why wouldn't you?

The OL isn't the one making the game pointless in this scenario, its the heroes. If this were to happen in a game I was playing simple solution - stop playing. What the hell is the point in playing if people do retarded things like this? If you aren't going to play at least somewhat by the spitit of the game - don't play.

Hmm,

I do have to preface that my friend is not really trying to metagame this. It was something that came up as an idea and the thought seems to be true that it does break the game. It was originally thought off because I was devastating him so badly in the middle of week 2 that he figured that since silver was right around the corner, he would be better suited to getting silver weapons next dungeon and only allowing me one upgrade, by forcing the campaign to silver.

I can not blame him for that, but from there the conversation extended this to how the game could be exploited by doing this for all levels. It has not been determined that this WILL happen, but just that it COULD and I, as the OL, wanted some input on what could be done.

BTW, My understanding of the divine favor rule is that CT reward can not go below 1. Minor point though.

Bravo McWilley said:

This is something everyone seems to have thought of at one point or another, but that nobody ever tried - for good reasons, as there would be no fun in doing it. Thus, we don't know what would happen in a final battle with heroes who only have their starting skills and dice (but gold weapons) against an Avatar with only 2 or 3 upgrades.

All I want to tell to whoever is afraid such a situation might happen is: I dare you to try.

You'll spend a few unfun hours, but you'll participate in the advancement of knowledge of humanity (ahem ) by discovering if heroes can really win this way or not. If they can, a simple house rule like " if the heroes have not reached 100 CP at the end of the campaign, Tamalir is immediately razed and the heroes have lost " or " If the OL earns more than 100 CP in a single dungeon, Tamalir is immediately razed and the heroes have lost " should be implemented.

A simpler way to discover if this is a problem would of course be to stage final battles set up this way. But if you don't want to try and just want to avoid this possibility, implement one (or both) of the house rules above.

i dont think they will stand a chance vs a spiderqueen which has only two major upgrades without additional skills and dice. maybe they get lucky with items but thats a game of chance.

@Dashakan: Seriously, there is no need to be an ass*&^%. I asked a legitimate question, hoping for someone to chime in with experience in this or offer real advice, not to belittle the poster. "Try using your brain a bit more" is not only uncalled for but also untrue as, "using our brains" is what got us in this situation in the first place.

This is a tactical strategy game, not an rpg, as has been stated a million time here before. If someone finds an exploit, and it is not covered by the rules, seems legal, etc.. then it certainly is something I should post about and not be belittled for it.

Especially given the example and explanation above, a person who is "using his brain" would certainly see why a hero player would want to advance the campaign quickly AND limit the OL from getting upgrades at the same time. While it might break the game, it certainly is "Smart" on his part to suggest it and maybe even try it a bit.

Granted the extended scenario I layed out above is a bit extreme (pushing all the way to final battle), and I dont know if that would happen (but it certainly could without the addition of the Divine favor rule as suggested by Haslo, who is truly trying to understand and suggest a fix as a helpful person), but the question I posed is still valid....Is the final battle still an insta-win in this example? If so then it is certainly a GAME flaw, not a player flaw as the player is simply doing what he can to win, I really can not blame him for suggesting it, although it would ruin the game. This was hypothetical so far in any case. If not, then there is the answer, as a push would only make them lose the campaign.

By instantly deciding "not to play anymore", that person is being a quitter and a baby. I on the other hand decided to "ask around" and see if there was something that could be done to counter this and discourage it with another tactic or the like, without throwing a "hissy-fit" cause the other player came up with a legal strategie/exploit.

If the answer to my question is, the heroes will lose the final battle if they play this tactic, then the whole situation is moot as they will lose by doing so. But if it is not the answer and the heroes can still win like this and there is no counter strategie that can be employed by the OL, then the game is simply broken.

Thank you Ispher and Turric4n. That makes sense and I had wondered if it was just us, but to hear that other have thought of this also bode well. I guess your answer is the best. We will have to wait and see at this point. I had hoped someone would know the answer outright but I can see why it would not get implemented very much. I guess it comes down to a gamble on the heroes part to get good gold treasures.

I might also try staging a few final battles to see the result.

Also thank you for the houserule. That might come in handy but at this point I dont know if we will use it or not. I will wait to see results first.

oh btw you could try ... slaggaroth.. that wont be much conquestokens on one encounter. however it depends on how fast they can reach the next dungeon.. and if they are even able to clear it.

[ Moderator - Edited for language. Please keep the conversation civil. Thank you! ]

Bravo McWilley said:

He's not saying don't kill the heroes, he's saying if they start to just linger and do nothing but wait to die in hopes of advancing the Conquest total, THEN you don't kill the heroes. So rather than the OL earning 100CTs for the dungeon, he earns 6 when the heroes get booted out.

But honestly, it sounds like the game is not for your group, if that's how they're going to act. Maybe they're frustrated at how the OL is more powerful in Copper? Why not restart the campaign at Silver level? Or better yet, teach them how to blitz, that tends to get the heroes on even par with the OL in Copper.

-shnar

Edit: removed a weird second quote (silly forum)

Turric4n said:

There is that as well, one of the reasons the Heroes tend to do so well at the final battle is that with *many* Gold Treasures and all their upgraded dice, they are very tough to deal with. Why not let your heroes run the clock down? What upgrades you get spend for the final battle (as opposed to plot upgrades). They'll find out real soon their tactic was not a good one...

-shnar

Thanks Shnar.

I guess I should not worry about it as I think you and Turric4n are right. There should be a significant advantage to the Avatar in this case.

As for killing vs not killing the heroes, I find this hard to judge. In our current game, he has decided NOT to run away thus enabling me to rack up huge CT points but also getting everything in a dungeon for doing so. In the second level of the current dungeon, total CT is about 150+, where it makes sense for him to try to push it to silver, thus advancing for him and limiting me. A sound strategy in this case. I doubt he will actually follow through the rest and push to gold or final, but it was brought up as a question as to whats to stop him from doing so. Obviously the fun factor is part of the answer, but I was looking for the other part, which you guys did give me here. In our current case though I can see how at this point letting him "win" the rest of level 2 and level 3 would actually benefit me, by stopping CT gain just shy of silver, allowing me an extra week or 2 to upgrade something else. It make sense in this context and I guess it just comes down to knowing what the total is, how much is left for the next level, and how much I need to stay upgrading each week. My initial inclenation has been to slaughter and keep slaughtering relentlessly, but now I see that that has an unwanted side effect also of advancing the weeks too fast, so it comes down to balancing how often I kill them . Maybe killing all 4 heroes in a single turn is not a good startegy after all....hahaha!

It is not like he is "trying to die", but I have blocked paths, spawned hard creatures and generally just made his life very difficult to the tune of me having a 100+ advantage over him in copper. I have killed 3-4 of his heroes almost every other turn and when they try to retreat I follow and press the attack.

We are aware of the blitz but I play as OL to stop this in most cases. Plus some hard dungeon pulls have made it worse.

Bravo McWilley said:

You sir, are what is wrong with society. You aren't able to grasp a couple basic things:

1. Read the situation. OBVIOUSLY if the heroes are playing, play accordingly. If they aren't playing then likewise, you can "not play" by not killing them and letting the deck cycle.

2. In the scenario you give, and I'll say it again since you were unable to grasp it the first time, it's the HEROES that are being quitters and babies, NOT the OL. Sitting in a dungeon and trying to get yourself killed IS being a quitter and a baby.

3. You play games to have fun, not to win. We all know the OL isn't winning the final battle. Wea lso all know the OL rushing Tamalir isn't fun for the heroes. So play in a way that is FUN. Play the scenario out to it's fullest, and then fight the last fight with the heroes beating the Avatar in an epic battle. You view the game as Me vs Them. It isn't. It's a GAME, it's for FUN.

you, sir, didnt understand the full meaning of a game. fun or playing to win? is only one the right answer.. are they contradicting themselves? obviously you are playing for fun and despise any unorthodox ways of playing the game (which makes it an inferiour version in your oppinion).

btw heroes can still kill themselves in order to advance the campaign. read the full thread before answering.

I'll say it again. I do not understand why you insist on being a jerk when its obvious I am only having a bit of a problem understanding the concept. Everyone else has been helpful and polite, but while you ARE trying to offer something constructive, you are also doing so in a very rude manner. Thankfully this has been explained by better people than you and now I understand.

I'm not sure your heroes understand the proper blitz strategy then. If a bad dungeon is pulled in level 1, FLEE! You don't have do complete even one level of a dungeon. Only do it if it seems that you will pull in more CTs than the Overlord. Typically level one will be the easiest level in a dungeon (the OL has no Power Cards yet, starts with 0 Threat, has only 3 cards in hand, a full deck, etc. The heroes are at full health (well, should be) and at full fatigue, and usually full potions) so usually when blitzing you complete the first dungeon level. But at any time during that level if it seems that the OL will pull ahead in CTs, FLEE!

Anyways, Blitzing is really for Copper. If your group finds that it's hard to manage the unbalance of Copper then just start the campaign at Silver and I think you'll have a lot more fun

-shnar

Ahh I see what you mean. Yes I understand the blitz, but my hero player probably does not as he simply refuses to run away until way too late. Although he probably does understand it, he just like to be stubborn i guess. In fact, it doesnt help when I continuosly suggest that he run away... . he most likely thinks I am trying to sway him to do something he should not.

Dashakan said:

No, that would be rude people. I do not like rude people

Bravo McWilley said:

Yeah, you're right, I was overreacting a bit with the "stop playing" thing. Still, when I play games, I try and play to win by the spirit of the rules, not by the letter of them, and I expect the same from my fellow players - and while some interpretations of the spirit of the rules are arguable, the heroes dying over and over for some longer-term goal is certainly not part of high fantasy. Tweaking things a bit and heroically dying once or twice more than needed can pass as creative reinterpretation of the background

I play games for fun, and people playing to win at all costs even against the very core intentions of a game do not fit my definition of "fun to play games with", so playing games with people who do that appears to be pointless: I play games for fun, and I do not have fun playing those games with these hypothetical people, so playing games with them would be stupid on my part. Whether that makes me a baby or not, I try not not to do stupid things all too often.

However, since you are talking about a thought experiment and not people actually doing what you're writing about, of course pondering the implications makes sense. This might very well be a loophole in the rules. I'd be interested in reading about the outcome of those staged battles, to find out whether it really is, or whether it's just a shortcut for the heroes towards inevitable defeat.

Either way, I will definitely play with Divine Favour in my next campaign, whether it's RtL or SoB. I quite like that rule. Sorry about forgetting about the lower conquest cap.

So one tactic you can use is this: Play as normal, gaining CT. As soon as you have gained enough to buy the next upgrade you want, stop killing the heroes and if they want to sit in the dungeon let them. Cycle twice on a level, kick them out. Let them have the treasure and the gold but they will be severely limited in their ability to upgrade this way while you will be getting your best upgrades each week instead of having to bank CT.

Turric4n said:

I have no problem with unorthodox ways of playing. The scenario provided isn't playing. It's NOT playing. f course the heroes can kill themselves, but again at that point they aren't playing anymore.