I touched on this in another thread, but I'll break it out so as not to promote a tangent.

Since we didn't see the back side of the Deepwood Archers card in the Guardians of the Deepwood preview , let's speculate on what formations, points, and upgrades will be available to the unit.

We know it's four trays in the army expansion box, and unless it's both pictured illegally, omitted a command dial in the box contents picture, AND breaks ranks with the format of the other armies, it'll be one 2x2 squad. So at the very least, it can field a 2x2 formation.

The closest analogue is the Reanimate Archers, the only other ranged infantry unit we have as a baseline. Reanimate Archers are fieldable at 2x1, 2x2, and 3x2 offering three options at 18, 32, and 45 points. That works out to 9 points per tray at the small/expensive end, 8 points a tray in the middle, and 7.5 at the large block.

I get the feeling that offering only three formations for the core troop doesn't make much sense. However, what we know about the Deepwood Archers does still suggest smaller units (they have precise 1!) that maneuver and skirmish rather than tarpit. As such, I don't think they could possibly be 3 ranks deep and precise 1. Nor do I think it reasonable for them to have a 4-threat option (but this is probably my weakest assertion -- 4-wide comes with a built-in tradeoff that it's harder to avoid a planned charge by using the skirmish-y sidestep options built into the unit, and it seems to be focused on being killy and mobile instead of more of a support unit the way Reanimate Archers are, so 4 threat might not be out of the question). So 3x2 is probably the maximum size, but it wouldn't surprise me if there's another formation crammed in there -- maybe a 3x1?

So if we've got 2x1, 2x2, 3x1, and 3x2... What kind of point values would we assign? They have a 1-blue melee attack, so right there they seem stronger and more forgiving than Reanimate Archers, so they ought to be more expensive, probably throughout the cost curve. Next up, would 2x2 or 3x1 be less expensive? 3x1 is more offensively powerful, but fragile compared to 2x2. Glass cannon-y does seem to fit their M.O., so I'm going to go with 3x1 being more valuable on a per-tray basis despite being fewer bodies. I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest 20 for 2x1, 32 for 3x1, 36 for 2x2, and 48 for 3x2.

As for upgrades? Honestly, I haven't internalized the upgrades very well, yet, so I'll leave that one open. I'm most curious to see whether Scions can be embedded, though.

Thoughts? Disagreements? Other theories? Fire away!

There's a lot to digest here, but I think that even though they only have blue dice, a threat of 4 is probably too much. I think your four predictions of formations seem reasonable. I can't even begin to think about points, though. It's just not something I can wrap my head around since I have so little list-building experience.

Looking at the Leonx Riders, they've got a formation that wasn't present in the Core Set. It makes me wonder if the Archers might end up 2x1, 3x1, 3x2 and 4x2. Staying shallow would make sense with the Precise 1.

Dang. They probably do need at least one formation that uses 4 trays.

I suspect the 2x2 formation will be somewhere around 30-35 points.

The rest of the figures in this box ad up to 65points and the human and undead core armies are 99 and 96 points respectively.

Looking at the price points of their other figures, the elves have the cheapest siege option, and their cav is 2,4 and 6 points cheaper than the oathsworn for the same formations. With this info in mind, I expect the the archers will be on the cheaper side as well, with these point costs.

2x1 16points

2x2 30points

3x2 40points

3 hours ago, Orcdruid said:

I suspect the 2x2 formation will be somewhere around 30-35 points.

The rest of the figures in this box ad up to 65points and the human and undead core armies are 99 and 96 points respectively.

Ooh. Very good point. The 65 point thing does add a soft floor and a hard ceiling, since the box is going to be able to use all its models in a skirmish with minimal upgrades able to fit without removing a tray. I'm backing off my 36 for 2x2 to 35, then.

I think the Deepwoods will actually be the expensive ones, pushing the typical elf list into a few small units of archers and more skirmishing cavalry. I think elves and up being the MSU (multiple small units) faction, but if their archers are 30 for 4 trays, that puts a ranged unit at cost with spearmen.

11 minutes ago, kaffis said:

I think the Deepwoods will actually be the expensive ones, pushing the typical elf list into a few small units of archers and more skirmishing cavalry. I think elves and up being the MSU (multiple small units) faction, but if their archers are 30 for 4 trays, that puts a ranged unit at cost with spearmen.

That makes sense. The spearmen are more expensive than reanimates even though they trade a red for a blue die. This is essentially what is happening between the deepwoods and reanimate archers.

Its likely that Elves will deviate from what we have seen the core set, an assumption I based on what has already been revealed as well as the simple fact that it would make sense when creating a 3rd faction to make them distinctly different from anything we have right now.

That said what we do know about the Elf Archers is that they use 2 blue dice, hence there damage potential even with Precise will trimmed. They are looking more likely skirmishing harassment unit more then anything else. Also because of their special ability, it suggests to me that they are intended to be mobile, able to shift clear of charging units. It wouldn't make sense for them to be particularly wide as this would make the ability less useful.

Speculation of course, its a bummer that they didn't reveal this in the preview, it may in fact be because they haven't decided on it yet.

I hope they can take equipment upgrades wind rune looke like it will be good to keep them out of melee.

I would suspect 3x2 will be their largest formation. The way their command dial is set up indicated that they are a skirmishing, ranged force and large blocks would go against that notion.

They also have no option to charge and thus make even less sense in large blocks.

Just my 2 cents.

1 minute ago, Englishpete said:

I would suspect 3x2 will be their largest formation. The way their command dial is set up indicated that they are a skirmishing, ranged force and large blocks would go against that notion.

They also have no option to charge and thus make even less sense in large blocks.

Just my 2 cents.

I would expect similar 3x2 or MAYBE 4x2 max size, I think these guys are going to really sine once we see some effective range upgrades to add surge effects.

And no more list building info on the unit in the expansion announcement. The only two possibilities I can think of is they haven't settled on points, yet, or they don't want us proxying before release. Argh.

2 hours ago, kaffis said:

And no more list building info on the unit in the expansion announcement. The only two possibilities I can think of is they haven't settled on points, yet, or they don't want us proxying before release. Argh.

Why would they let us proxy the leonx riders but not the archers? They are likely still fiddling with the cost. We will likely see the cost side in the expansion preview.

5 hours ago, kaffis said:

And no more list building info on the unit in the expansion announcement. The only two possibilities I can think of is they haven't settled on points, yet, or they don't want us proxying before release. Argh.

Or the third possiblility:

FFG knows that holding out on pieces of information like that keeps people interested.

They do it with something in just about every X-Wing preview. Each preview article reveals a little more than was known but there's always something doesn't get spoiled.

I love the thought of a 4 X 2 , but not sure that would be a forest elves style. I'd like an option of starting a large single force that can be broken into smaller units during the game. But that would be OP

Ok so a few things. The scion has a unit upgrade card, so it MUST go with the archers, no question. Second, the elves tend to have smaller units than Daqan, (looking at a comparison with the leonx riders to the cavalry) so I be the same will be true for the archers, but since they're the mainstay infantry I bet it's not much smaller. I feel they will be 4x2 for max size

13 hours ago, Taki said:

Ok so a few things. The scion has a unit upgrade card, so it MUST go with the archers, no question. Second, the elves tend to have smaller units than Daqan, (looking at a comparison with the leonx riders to the cavalry) so I be the same will be true for the archers, but since they're the mainstay infantry I bet it's not much smaller. I feel they will be 4x2 for max size

Daqan Spearmen need to get to 3x3 to take Frontline Rune Golem. Waiqar's Reanimates can be 3x3 or 4x3, but if Ardus is in the army, they can even take the Frontline Carrion Lancer at 3x2. Given that, it's not a stretch to think that the maximum Deepwood Archer size may indeed be 3x2. And with Precise 1, I think it makes sense for them to only have two ranks, so they'll be able to reroll each die twice.

On 4/22/2017 at 11:29 PM, Budgernaut said:

Daqan Spearmen need to get to 3x3 to take Frontline Rune Golem. Waiqar's Reanimates can be 3x3 or 4x3, but if Ardus is in the army, they can even take the Frontline Carrion Lancer at 3x2. Given that, it's not a stretch to think that the maximum Deepwood Archer size may indeed be 3x2. And with Precise 1, I think it makes sense for them to only have two ranks, so they'll be able to reroll each die twice.

Woah. Wait.

You can re roll the same die multiple times?

Huh. Today I learned.

It's almost like this isn't just X-Wing.

2 minutes ago, Ailowynn said:

Woah. Wait.

You can re roll the same die multiple times?

Huh. Today I learned.

It's almost like this isn't just X-Wing.

You sure can. I had to reread that block of rules a few times to cleanse the X-Wing from my brain.