3 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

Sorry, but you missed my point, mostly. It's not about the fun that can be had--it is true that the players bring that to the table.. It's about the idea that dining room play should be DIY if the game is not living up to your expectations.

Let's frame it differently. What if all the DRPs (dining room players) just decided "Eh, screw it. If I have to make up scenarios, new rules, and point adjustments, why don't we all just go over to Shapeways and get all the ships we wish we had and make the cardboard up on Strange Eons." Screw FFG, they are not supporting us anyways, so who needs them."

So, now that the DRPs are making their own ships and cards, they happy as clams, right? Oh wait. Every gaming group has That Guy. "I want Hera's B-Wing superblaster, and since it took out an Arquitens, I think it should do 15 dice. Oh, and it's 3 points." Or "Well, now that we're not playing official X-Wing, I want to use some of the ships from Star Trek cuz I luv the Bird of Prey." Or, no one has any time to make up next week's scenario, so it's back to 100/6. Or, That Guy playing Imperials makes up the next scenario and says it's 400 points vs. 200 points because it only makes sense that the Rebels are badly outnumbered and your objective is to destroy the Omen cuz he saw that online and it's keeeeeeeewwwwlllll but, well he won't pop for a cool model cuz he was able to make a wedge the exact same size out of 2x4s and duct tape.

Then, you go home after another night of DIY XWM and you wife says "did you have fun?" and you say "#&(&^%$ That Guy *&%$*^(%$%!!!!!!!!

And you wife says, "Well, if he's such a jerk, why do you play with him?"

And you say "Cuz we need 4 guys. And That Guy is a complete ##^#&^%$^%^**,

but he is my friend."

So, FFG first loses you as a customer because you start using 3rd party's products to make a better SW game, and then they permanently lose you as a customer because you get tired of all the extra DIY work to make the game "good" and quit the game.

OTOH, FFG could start making official stuff for casual play. DRPs buy it, and the game grows. That Guy is now wearing Official RAW Binders because FFG created the material. The other DRPs can just sit down an play. DRPs can even take the material to the FLGS, and since it is official, DRPs can play with new DRPs in a FLGS. No prep, no third party product, no redos on unbalanced ideas; just good ole XWM. Casual, like.

I think there will always be those people who aren't happy with the game as conceived. They want to "make it better", correct what fhey perceive as problems or give a needed boost to a favorite ship or build. There's really nothing that FFG can do to make them happy. Just look at recent threads about giving the X-wing four attack or a "slip" maneuver. And while an official campaign would be nice it's not necessary for a game.

There are those of us that take what has been given and use it to work to our advantage. Tired of the 100/6? Try a one on ond mirror match to see who flies better. Build a squad of all three factions and use it. Too much time wasted on early positioning moves? Shorten the board. Use orphaned pilots and off the wall builds. Try a "Top Gun" scenario where one ace flies against three or four adversaries in lesser ships. Start with two and add more until you get beat. Swap sides and replay.

I think some of the younger players (referenced to my age) don't use their imagination. Too many video games don't require imagination on the part of the player. An imaginary world was laid out for them. All that was really required was headphones and a joystick and BANG! You're immersed in an alternate reality.

There probably aren't too many that remember ZORK. A text based adventure game. No graphics just a computer program that "understood" about 300 words. It kept me entertained far longer than most first person shooters that I played. It required you to think and fill out "the reality" of the game in your head.

No matter how well a game is constructed there will be those that aren't satisfied. They tweak, push and fiddle to suit themselves. The complaints of the Wookie ship getting the Reinforce Action and why it isn't on the X-wing are examples. Two camps. One complaining about Epic actions comming to regular play the other bemoaning the fact that the X-wing doesn't have it. FFG can't please all the players all the time. The DRPs that choose to leave are a very small subset of casual players.

1 hour ago, Turbo Toker said:

You can enjoy the game even when you're losing and still enjoy it more when you're winning. This is because winning is fun.

This is just a defense mechanism, to guard against players that are better than you, or that take the game seriously when you just have a casual attitude towards it.

If someone beats you, or wins an event while you lose, it's comforting to say, "I just came here to play for fun, not to win."

That's fine that you have this defense mechanism, but don't project this false dichotomy on others. Competitive players generally enjoy the game regardless of whether or not they're winning, but they enjoy the game even more when they're winning.

You can have fun and win, and still have the capacity to enjoy losses. Stop trying to demonize people that try to win as WAAC-off try hards.

You must have a dim view of people. Claiming that "I just came here to have fun" is a defense mechanism may be a bit of a stretch. There are people who genuinely play to have fun. While they may savor the wins they don't enjoy losses they enjoy the game. There's a difference. I've entered competitions where I had two chances of winning: slim and none. I went to have fun. Period.

There are guys who will enter an event just to see how they stack up vs the competition. Even if they win they may never compete again.

Every game I play I try to win. Good sportsmanship and fair play are paramount but there are players that are WAAC jobs. They will use every trick, rule and even unfair play to win. One poster who is no longer here bragged about his use or abuse of the rules.

If you're not having fun, regardless if you're winning or losing, why play the game?

11 hours ago, Killerardvark said:

If you want to be competitive, let's stick with that caveat...

There are three things that make good players.

1. Be inherently good at flying

2. Fly a good squad

3. Practice like crazy

You have to do at least two of them if you want to be really competitive.

You should add a fourth and a fifth to that list.

4) Situational awareness.

5) Good sense of anticipating the opponent's moves.

This would have to be one of the worst threads added for a while. It doesnt add anything to the community or the game. The OP assumes that they are a good player, so naturally they are free to give advice to the peons below them.

There hasnt been this much discord since PGS Or Voldemort as we will say now, as he is He who shall not be named was banned. I had little issue with him, but they were just bad for the community. Much like this thread.

If you want to be better at a tournament, practice and get to know other ships abilities.

The End.

4 hours ago, Stoneface said:

You must have a dim view of people. Claiming that "I just came here to have fun" is a defense mechanism may be a bit of a stretch. There are people who genuinely play to have fun. While they may savor the wins they don't enjoy losses they enjoy the game. There's a difference. I've entered competitions where I had two chances of winning: slim and none. I went to have fun. Period.

There are guys who will enter an event just to see how they stack up vs the competition. Even if they win they may never compete again.

Every game I play I try to win. Good sportsmanship and fair play are paramount but there are players that are WAAC jobs. They will use every trick, rule and even unfair play to win. One poster who is no longer here bragged about his use or abuse of the rules.

If you're not having fun, regardless if you're winning or losing, why play the game?

PGS was one person and not at all representative of competitive players as a whole.

Someone who is both enjoying losing and enjoying winning (even more) is generally enjoying the game. There is no difference.

Stop perpetuating this false dichotomy between trying to win and having fun.

^^ Schrodinger's Toy space battles

In a sweaty nerd environment, one is both not having fun winning and having fun losing at the same time.

13 hours ago, Luke C said:

at what point does choosing to not do any of those things allow you to whine and complain about it on the forums?

Oh another person who doesn't even bother to read why people complain. Good job!

In many/most cases it has nothing to do with winning or losing but with poor design or poor play experience.

The great analogy was 'if a game reviewer can beat a game easily it doesn't mean he should give it 10/10' and yet anybody who complains about how something is designed gets 'git gud scrub' thrown back in their face as though it's even a valid answer to the point raised.

How can people be so amazing at x-wing but so terrible at reading?

Because I am a filthy casual and X-Wing is a game where win or lose I am having fun pushing around TIE Fighters blasting Rebel scum (and Scum haha) out of their ships into the cold vacuum of space. I have just as much fun making explosion noises for my disposable TIE pilots as I do eliminating the enemy, because both scenarios are thematic in Star Wars.

I enjoy running my favorite ships to their (and my) best and seeing how "gud" I can do.

5 hours ago, stuffedskullcat said:

This thread and the OP are exactly why I still won't play tourneys, and also contributes to the illusory rift between casual and tourney tiers.

Also why there needs to be better moderation of these forums; it's like a bar overrun by campus frat-holes whose collars are popped up so tall they can't hear the old-timers commiserating about the last few bodies they had to hide.

I agree, this kind of BS attitude is exactly why I stay as far away from Tournament play as possible, well that and the fact that I don't find seeing the same 3-4 builds going round and round in a circle jerk to be at all interesting. Plus there is next to no support for the Epic format.

So I play on my (massive) dinning room table, with my friends and we have a great time, we've never got to a position where anyone feels bad and we all trade wins/loses pretty evenly and we get to play the formats that we like, we play more 150pt matches and Epic matches.

I'm glad that there are people who enjoy tournment play, but I would rather play and interesting squad than an optimised one.

Just out of gentle curiosity, what does Get better mean? Is it all about flying or is stuff like squad building or meta analysis in there as well?

2 hours ago, Stoneface said:

You should add a fourth and a fifth to that list.

4) Situational awareness.

5) Good sense of anticipating the opponent's moves.

Those should come from #3

So..... what is this thread about?

I've been following this thread for a while now and feel somewhat obliged to give my perspective.

when I play, I go into the match telling myself that I've practised enough and know what I'm doing and have at least a fifty fifty chance to win. Even when I come across meta lists I tell myself that I know I can outfly their list any day of the week because that player is less experienced (not all people using meta lists are less experienced just in my group that seems to be the trend). I try to fly my squad for at least an hour a day (incredibly tough when I work long hours some days) and have to believe that I am getting better because I've always thought that with enough practise I can make up for any firepower my list lacks. Coming from a war gaming background (40K specifically) I view meta lists as cheap tricks and gimmicks, they are strong and smart but can only get you so far without legitimate skill. As an example over this recent weekend I played some casual matches against a friend of mine playing a regen Poe and Rey+Finn. In return I brought ships that I had been practising and found fun, the list consisted of countdown (striker), backdraft (sf) and krassis trelix (fire spray 31). Not mentally prepared for the trickiness of the list and Reys jousting prowess I was thrashed however in the next two consecutive matches (both of which came down to countdown vs Rey) I knew how he would fly and my superior practise allowed me to eliminate Poe in the third round in the first match and then in the second round in the second match. This reinforced my stance that the meta will only get you so far and that skill is required to carry you the rest of the way. Did I have fun? Yes, losing was of course less fun but it taught me valuable lessons that can only be taught by an actual opponent, on your own you can think of only so many possibilities but not all because they will always think something different because you can't know what they'll think. So though I didn't really enjoy losing but I appreciated it More than the wins in hindsight because of the lesson it taught me, that's the stance I've had for some time and one I feel I have to believe for my own mental sanity. The idea that one should "Git Gud" holds some truth but I fly what I enjoy and though I don't expect to win everything I do expect to at least learn from my mistakes and if not GIT GUD at least GIT BETTER.

15 hours ago, Luke C said:

at what point does choosing to not do any of those things allow you to whine and complain about it on the forums?

I'd say pretty much any whimsical urge allows any of us to complain on this forum. We are not always entitled to a reasonable response, though.

Some people are inherently creative. They like creating original lists. This does not mean they aren't competitive players. I had great placings at Regionals and Store Championships last season, I practiced hard, I didn't once fly a meta list. I complained a lot about the lack of list diversity.

I also complained a ton about Jumpmasters and Palp aces, they removed a lot of diversity from the game, and had overwhelming dice mechanics that helped compensate for player error. Complaining helped me to vent my frustrations, and ultimately improve and stick around when the odds seemed too great.

5 hours ago, Archangelspiv said:

This would have to be one of the worst threads added for a while. It doesnt add anything to the community or the game. The OP assumes that they are a good player, so naturally they are free to give advice to the peons below them.

There hasnt been this much discord since PGS Or Voldemort as we will say now, as he is He who shall not be named was banned. I had little issue with him, but they were just bad for the community. Much like this thread.

If you want to be better at a tournament, practice and get to know other ships abilities.

The End.

Hey now, I am pretty sure I explicitly stated that I do not necessarily consider myself a good player, just a non complainer about the competetive scene. Why? Because last year at this time Brobots were crazy good and imperial aces were just starting their rampant run across the meta.

Also, how dare you compare me to PGS. I'm not actively cheating, or causing a negative play experience. I am telling you that all this time you waste on whining about how [insert ship name here] doesn't work could be spent making that ship work.

When I started playing tie s/fs earlier this season, they were trash by all standards. Locally, making multiple cuts at regionals pretty much changed everyone's view of that. In short, be the change you want to see, you know by not being so awful at this game that you have to complain on a forum that the designers designed it poorly.

I NEED A TON OF POPCORN THIS IS GREAT!!!1!1!1!

*Picture Micheal Jackson eating popcorn

* Picture some angry chef guy squeaking about needing more popcorn

*Picture yo dog popcorn,popcorn in my popcorn for popcorn

*Picture unicorn raining popcorn from it's rainbow butt into my yearning mouf

@Luke C awesome! I can't wait to read about your TIE Interceptor or T-65 list that makes it to the top tables in Regional play... since all ships are created equal and it's only skill and experience at the table.

Also, seriously?! What Imperial player didn't think the /SF was good at reveal?! Every serious podcast thought they were solid, every competitive player even pre x7 nerf was talking about them being great Defender alternatives, heck, I pre ordered three. That was simple math. Don't pat yourself on the back for that easy call.

7 minutes ago, Lobokai said:

@Luke C awesome! I can't wait to read about your TIE Interceptor or T-65 list that makes it to the top tables in Regional play... since all ships are created equal and it's only skill and experience at the table.

Also, seriously?! What Imperial player didn't think the /SF was good at reveal?! Every serious podcast thought they were solid, every competitive player even pre x7 nerf was talking about them being great Defender alternatives, heck, I pre ordered three. That was simple math. Don't pat yourself on the back for that easy call.

Seriously though, what podcast are you talking about? I seriously remember every podcast I listened to calling them trash and or not good. I also remember being at regionals and people coming up to me going, "wow, you're running s/f, brave" So cut that **** out right there. Put up or shut up.

Also, in competetive play how did YOU do with tie s/fs? GTFO.

10 hours ago, stuffedskullcat said:

This thread and the OP are exactly why I still won't play tourneys, and also contributes to the illusory rift between casual and tourney tiers.

Also why there needs to be better moderation of these forums; it's like a bar overrun by campus frat-holes whose collars are popped up so tall they can't hear the old-timers commiserating about the last few bodies they had to hide.

My thought by page 1. On the last gaming boards I haunted, this thread probably would have been shut down 1-2 posts in for trolling, and would definitely been shut down for flaming about 8 posts in.

8 hours ago, Stoneface said:

I think there will always be those people who aren't happy with the game as conceived. They want to "make it better", correct what fhey perceive as problems or give a needed boost to a favorite ship or build. There's really nothing that FFG can do to make them happy. Just look at recent threads about giving the X-wing four attack or a "slip" maneuver. And while an official campaign would be nice it's not necessary for a game.

No matter how well a game is constructed there will be those that aren't satisfied. They tweak, push and fiddle to suit themselves. The complaints of the Wookie ship getting the Reinforce Action and why it isn't on the X-wing are examples. Two camps. One complaining about Epic actions comming to regular play the other bemoaning the fact that the X-wing doesn't have it. FFG can't please all the players all the time. The DRPs that choose to leave are a very small subset of casual players.

Sure, and I'm not trying to imply that DIY XWM is a bad thing. But beyond those that tweak because they are unhappy, there are those that tweak because they have found a fun sandbox to play in. I think far more people fall into the latter category, and they are the people who are making this game great in a way that FFG has not bothered to explore .

So, many thanks to those who have added the Star Wars back into X-Wing, by spending many long hours creating and playtesting the Trench Run Scenario, The Battle of Scarif Scenario, and the Grayskull campaign, anomg many others, so that the rest of us can just sit down and play SW:XWM.

5 hours ago, UberMunchkin said:

I'm glad that there are people who enjoy tournment play, but I would rather play and interesting squad than an optimised one .

The irony, of course, is that you handle is UberMunchkin.

4 hours ago, Ram said:

Just out of gentle curiosity, what does Get better mean? Is it all about flying or is stuff like squad building or meta analysis in there as well?

It has to be both. XWM is not a game that lets you fly what you want based on pure skill and win. Table the wrong ships and fly your heart out, it will still be like the Red Baron fighting an F-15.

11 minutes ago, Lobokai said:

@Luke C awesome! I can't wait to read about your TIE Interceptor or T-65 list that makes it to the top tables in Regional play... since all ships are created equal and it's only skill and experience at the table.

Also, seriously?! What Imperial player didn't think the /SF was good at reveal?! Every serious podcast thought they were solid, every competitive player even pre x7 nerf was talking about them being great Defender alternatives, heck, I pre ordered three. That was simple math. Don't pat yourself on the back for that easy call.

Well, that passed me by I've got to say. I think many people assumed they were DOA or niche use at best.

6 hours ago, Turbo Toker said:

PGS was one person and not at all representative of competitive players as a whole.

Someone who is both enjoying losing and enjoying winning (even more) is generally enjoying the game. There is no difference.

Stop perpetuating this false dichotomy between trying to win and having fun.

Unless you are some type of masochistic player, people normally don't enjoy losing! Have you ever started a game of chess thinking, "if I can lose this game in 7 moves I'll just be so happy". On second thought You might. Other players accept losses as part of the game they like playing. If every game you played was an easy win, would You be happy? It would get old quick.

You keep bringing up this "false dichotomy between trying to win and having fun" that I'm perpetuating. What are you trying to say? Yes, I know what a dichotomy is but I don't get what myth I'm perpetuating.

20 minutes ago, Luke C said:

Seriously though, what podcast are you talking about? I seriously remember every podcast I listened to calling them trash and or not good. I also remember being at regionals and people coming up to me going, "wow, you're running s/f, brave" So cut that **** out right there. Put up or shut up.

Also, in competetive play how did YOU do with tie s/fs? GTFO.

I do great, thank you. Won 3 club tournies and with an Inquisitor and QuickDraw plus another ace (Fel, Vader, Backdraft). Did 3 Zetas and a Zeta leader at another smaller tourney and got second, took Imperial aces including QuickDraw to the top 10 tables at Hoth, but couldn't make it to the Chicago regional due to a grad project on the East African Campaign, so I can't apples to apples at regional play for you. Not even saying I'd have the same record as you... because that's irrelevant to being able to evaluate a ship and say it needs help in the meta

What regionial were you at? I agree you're brave in this meta to play Imperials, but once in that pen, you've got an odd or very bizarre local meta if TIE/SFs where puzzling people. Its a 3 across the board ship with a rear arc, tech options, and strong aces. That's not rocket science.

Now if your talking about what podcasts were saying about SFs pre LWF, ok. But wave 10 turned the SF up to 11.

Edit: i see. I didn't mean podcasts at reveal, I meant Imperial players at reveal and podcasts heading into regionals after the Striker boosted the SF. Poorly worded on my part

9 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

My thought by page 1. On the last gaming boards I haunted, this thread probably would have been shut down 1-2 posts in for trolling, and would definitely been shut down for flaming about 8 posts in.

Sure, and I'm not trying to imply that DIY XWM is a bad thing. But beyond those that tweak because they are unhappy, there are those that tweak because they have found a fun sandbox to play in. I think far more people fall into the latter category, and they are the people who are making this game great in a way that FFG has not bothered to explore .

So, many thanks to those who have added the Star Wars back into X-Wing, by spending many long hours creating and playtesting the Trench Run Scenario, The Battle of Scarif Scenario, and the Grayskull campaign, anomg many others, so that the rest of us can just sit down and play SW:XWM.

The irony, of course, is that you handle is UberMunchkin.

It has to be both. XWM is not a game that lets you fly what you want based on pure skill and win. Table the wrong ships and fly your heart out, it will still be like the Red Baron fighting an F-15.

I see what you're saying now and agree with the examples you mention. There are aspects of this game that FFG has yet to explore or capitalise on. The mini campaigns they include with some ships are very good start but a more comprehensive one would be a great addition to the game. Most players would jump on it for sure.

6 minutes ago, Stoneface said:

Have you ever started a game of chess thinking, "if I can lose this game in 7 moves I'll just be so happy".

In spirit certainly. I was taught to play chess by my grandfather, who was very, very good at the game and did not believe in sugar coating his lessons. Every time I lasted longer, or even kept a key piece on the board longer it felt like a victory.