2 minutes ago, Turbo Toker said:

Good players with sub-par squads can do good. Good players with good squads can do even better.

Take player skill out of the equation. Certain squads just get trounced by others, and that's what people are complaining about. "gitting gud" can only take you so far.

Player skill is literally this game. Don't be daft.

I won in my division of the Vassal League once, but this time I have only two wins (and one would have been a loss if not for the round limit). It's discouraging. But I know that the core reason is that I just don't play as much as I used to. So I get what I put into it. I understand how others feel because I'm like, "What is wrong with me?" For a while I thought about not posting on the forums any more because I have no 'cred'. But then I realized that I'm here to have fun with like-minded individuals, so win or lose I'm free to share my opinion.

I really think that with the diversity of ships and upgrades, getting good has a lot more to do with predicting your most likely matchups, and planning accordingly, which I'm terrible at. I tend to fly what I like, come what may. If I have fun with my squad even if I lose, that's when I know I have a gem.

8 minutes ago, Parakitor said:

I won in my division of the Vassal League once, but this time I have only two wins (and one would have been a loss if not for the round limit). It's discouraging. But I know that the core reason is that I just don't play as much as I used to. So I get what I put into it. I understand how others feel because I'm like, "What is wrong with me?" For a while I thought about not posting on the forums any more because I have no 'cred'. But then I realized that I'm here to have fun with like-minded individuals, so win or lose I'm free to share my opinion.

I really think that with the diversity of ships and upgrades, getting good has a lot more to do with predicting your most likely matchups, and planning accordingly, which I'm terrible at. I tend to fly what I like, come what may. If I have fun with my squad even if I lose, that's when I know I have a gem.

Good attitude!

What I find amusing is that there are maybe two and a half "complaint" threads on the front page right now, where a couple weeks ago it was most of the front page threads.

Did you only post this thread now because you went into an anger-coma and just woke up?

Luke's having a bad day and decided to kick some internet puppies

So, Luke, what if someone wins 6 out of 7 competitive games, is good, but is tired of only seeing about 4 lists made of only 4 ships from each faction? What if they've got roughly 60 expansions, multiple copies of many of them and would like to see more than 12 ships in play?

Have they earned your approval to complain. Or is it beyond your comprehension that people might objectively think things need help in the game without it being a direct benefit to their preferred lists or gameplay?

19 minutes ago, Luke C said:

Or I'm shitposting... forum better

Nah, you are just being rude. You could have made the exact same topic without being rude, and treated the people that disagreed with you well. You would have lost nothing by doing that.

3 hours ago, Luke C said:

I've been seeing posts about how people can't win with certain squads or that the ships they like to play get trounced by other people. I'm just wondering why you can't get better at the game to play at a high level? I'm not saying that I personally am amazing at this game, but I'm also not whining about it either.

This post is to represent the "Other Side" of xwing where people like to go to tournaments, like to win, play good squads and generally crush bad players in a fun engaging setting of xwing!

26 minutes ago, Turbo Toker said:

Certain squads just get trounced by others, and that's what people are complaining about. "gitting gud" can only take you so far.

Obviously not a concern to someone who wonders why people can't man-up to his version of the game.

21 minutes ago, Parakitor said:

I won in my division of the Vassal League once, but this time I have only two wins (and one would have been a loss if not for the round limit). It's discouraging. But I know that the core reason is that I just don't play as much as I used to. So I get what I put into it. I understand how others feel because I'm like, "What is wrong with me?" For a while I thought about not posting on the forums any more because I have no 'cred'. But then I realized that I'm here to have fun with like-minded individuals, so win or lose I'm free to share my opinion.

I really think that with the diversity of ships and upgrades, getting good has a lot more to do with predicting your most likely matchups, and planning accordingly, which I'm terrible at. I tend to fly what I like, come what may. If I have fun with my squad even if I lose, that's when I know I have a gem.

Brown-noser.

9 minutes ago, ObiWonka said:

What I find amusing is that there are maybe two and a half "complaint" threads on the front page right now, where a couple weeks ago it was most of the front page threads.

Did you only post this thread now because you went into an anger-coma and just woke up?

LOL.

I have also noted a few nerf thread beginning to bubble up from the muck again.

20 minutes ago, Luke C said:

Player skill is literally this game. Don't be daft.

Stop that bull.

If you're the best martial artist in the world, it's not going to matter much if someone has a gun.

Equally skilled players are going to outperform each other if they have better tools for the job.

3 hours ago, Killerardvark said:

If you want to be competitive, let's stick with that caveat...

There are three things that make good players.

1. Be inherently good at flying

2. Fly a good squad

3. Practice like crazy

You have to do at least two of them if you want to be really competitive.

1. I'm pretty good but know I'd have to practice to get next level good. Who has time for that?

2. I really hate this part. I really dislike that the most iconic ships in the game are some of the worst. It was bad for awhile but at this point its starting to grind my gears a bit more. I really have no interest in Kwing + sabine spam (though I do love a good bombing... just wished it was imperials) or 3 toilet seats or triple defenders ( the best teaching list turned powerhouse turned less fun but still a good teaching tool list).

3. There is that time thing. Especially when competing with "fun flying" instead of "fly the best". Tournaments are out for me for the near future anyway.

35 minutes ago, Parakitor said:

For a while I thought about not posting on the forums any more because I have no 'cred'.

Dude. As long as I'm around you (and your brother) will always have X-Wing cred.

43 minutes ago, Lobokai said:

Luke's having a bad day and decided to kick some internet puppies

So, Luke, what if someone wins 6 out of 7 competitive games, is good, but is tired of only seeing about 4 lists made of only 4 ships from each faction? What if they've got roughly 60 expansions, multiple copies of many of them and would like to see more than 12 ships in play?

Have they earned your approval to complain. Or is it beyond your comprehension that people might objectively think things need help in the game without it being a direct benefit to their preferred lists or gameplay?

The point is that at a regional, why are you there? To win or have fun? I'm sorry you only play competitive. I play lots of rando crap just to practice. Yeah it's potentially silly to see the same squad all day, but it's not every day, and if it is, get out more.

38 minutes ago, Luke C said:

The point is that at a regional, why are you there? To win or have fun? I'm sorry you only play competitive. I play lots of rando crap just to practice. Yeah it's potentially silly to see the same squad all day, but it's not every day, and if it is, get out more.

First it's Git Gud , now it's Git Out More. I guess I should just send FFG a letter saying I can't spend any more money on their game. I'll tell them it's not their fault. It's all me, but we need to break up anyway. I'm sure they will understand losing a player/customer who just can't live up to the expectations of the game.

1 hour ago, Luke C said:

The point is that at a regional, why are you there? To win or have fun?

For some people, the former.
For some people, the latter.
For some people, both.

3 minutes ago, ObiWonka said:

For some people, the former.
For some people, the latter.
For some people, both.

Winning is fun.

There is a false dichotomy between winning and having fun. I'm sick and tired of people think you are only interested in one or the other, and actually trying at this game should not come with the stigma that you're not playing for fun, it's a load of ****.

2 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

This attitude is absolute crap, and it is repeated constantly. I should be able to find just as much value in this game out of the box while playing it at the dining room table as a player at a tournament table. On the whole, it is not happening. Telling casual players that it is their job to fill in the holes in the game to make it less tournamenty just shows how little support their is for this game if you want to play X-Wing THE STAR WARS Miniature Game.

Ok, two questions. First, how do you know how much "value" tournament players get at the table? Second, how do you quantify the value you get playing on the dining room table?

I have more fun, therefore more value, from playing casual, than I do competitively. I don't enjoy playing WAAC jobs either casually or competitively.

If you are playing competitively, you've made the decision and commitment to do so. This is not necessarily a matter of fun. YOU like, want or need that competitive atmosphere. THAT, for you, is the value of the game.

If you are playing casual, then it's all about fun. No bragging rights, no trphies, no accolades. It is entirely up to you to have fun playing this game. IF you're not having fun, ask yourself why. Is it the opponent, the game or you? Or all three?

9 minutes ago, Turbo Toker said:

Winning is fun.

There is a false dichotomy between winning and having fun. I'm sick and tired of people think you are only interested in one or the other, and actually trying at this game should not come with the stigma that you're not playing for fun, it's a load of ****.

True, winning is fun. I'd rather win than lose. But, if it didn't like playing this game, even if I won, I wouldn't play it for long.

There are players that only have fun when they win. There are some players that are WAAC jobs and only play tourney builds during casual games.

There are players that will never be tournament level competitors. They may not have the time, money or inate ability to become top tier competitors.

I agree that winning and fun are not mutually exclusive. Some complaints are just sour grapes. For some players that tension from highly competitive play out weighs the fun of the game. For others, that sense of competition is what drives them. For them that is the fun, not the game per se.

43 minutes ago, Stoneface said:

Ok, two questions. First, how do you know how much "value" tournament players get at the table? Second, how do you quantify the value you get playing on the dining room table?

I have more fun, therefore more value, from playing casual, than I do competitively. I don't enjoy playing WAAC jobs either casually or competitively.

If you are playing competitively, you've made the decision and commitment to do so. This is not necessarily a matter of fun. YOU like, want or need that competitive atmosphere. THAT, for you, is the value of the game.

If you are playing casual, then it's all about fun. No bragging rights, no trphies, no accolades. It is entirely up to you to have fun playing this game. IF you're not having fun, ask yourself why. Is it the opponent, the game or you? Or all three?

Sorry, but you missed my point, mostly. It's not about the fun that can be had--it is true that the players bring that to the table.. It's about the idea that dining room play should be DIY if the game is not living up to your expectations.

Let's frame it differently. What if all the DRPs (dining room players) just decided "Eh, screw it. If I have to make up scenarios, new rules, and point adjustments, why don't we all just go over to Shapeways and get all the ships we wish we had and make the cardboard up on Strange Eons." Screw FFG, they are not supporting us anyways, so who needs them."

So, now that the DRPs are making their own ships and cards, they happy as clams, right? Oh wait. Every gaming group has That Guy. "I want Hera's B-Wing superblaster, and since it took out an Arquitens, I think it should do 15 dice. Oh, and it's 3 points." Or "Well, now that we're not playing official X-Wing, I want to use some of the ships from Star Trek cuz I luv the Bird of Prey." Or, no one has any time to make up next week's scenario, so it's back to 100/6. Or, That Guy playing Imperials makes up the next scenario and says it's 400 points vs. 200 points because it only makes sense that the Rebels are badly outnumbered and your objective is to destroy the Omen cuz he saw that online and it's keeeeeeeewwwwlllll but, well he won't pop for a cool model cuz he was able to make a wedge the exact same size out of 2x4s and duct tape.

Then, you go home after another night of DIY XWM and you wife says "did you have fun?" and you say "#&(&^%$ That Guy *&%$*^(%$%!!!!!!!!

And you wife says, "Well, if he's such a jerk, why do you play with him?"

And you say "Cuz we need 4 guys. And That Guy is a complete ##^#&^%$^%^**,

but he is my friend."

So, FFG first loses you as a customer because you start using 3rd party's products to make a better SW game, and then they permanently lose you as a customer because you get tired of all the extra DIY work to make the game "good" and quit the game.

OTOH, FFG could start making official stuff for casual play. DRPs buy it, and the game grows. That Guy is now wearing Official RAW Binders because FFG created the material. The other DRPs can just sit down an play. DRPs can even take the material to the FLGS, and since it is official, DRPs can play with new DRPs in a FLGS. No prep, no third party product, no redos on unbalanced ideas; just good ole XWM. Casual, like.

This thread is aids

1 hour ago, Darth Meanie said:

Sorry, but you missed my point, mostly. It's not about the fun that can be had--it is true that the players bring that to the table.. It's about the idea that dining room play should be DIY if the game is not living up to your expectations.

Let's frame it differently. What if all the DRPs (dining room players) just decided "Eh, screw it. If I have to make up scenarios, new rules, and point adjustments, why don't we all just go over to Shapeways and get all the ships we wish we had and make the cardboard up on Strange Eons." Screw FFG, they are not supporting us anyways, so who needs them."

So, now that the DRPs are making their own ships and cards, they happy as clams, right? Oh wait. Every gaming group has That Guy. "I want Hera's B-Wing superblaster, and since it took out an Arquitens, I think it should do 15 dice. Oh, and it's 3 points." Or "Well, now that we're not playing official X-Wing, I want to use some of the ships from Star Trek cuz I luv the Bird of Prey." Or, no one has any time to make up next week's scenario, so it's back to 100/6. Or, That Guy playing Imperials makes up the next scenario and says it's 400 points vs. 200 points because it only makes sense that the Rebels are badly outnumbered and your objective is to destroy the Omen cuz he saw that online and it's keeeeeeeewwwwlllll but, well he won't pop for a cool model cuz he was able to make a wedge the exact same size out of 2x4s and duct tape.

Then, you go home after another night of DIY XWM and you wife says "did you have fun?" and you say "#&(&^%$ That Guy *&%$*^(%$%!!!!!!!!

And you wife says, "Well, if he's such a jerk, why do you play with him?"

And you say "Cuz we need 4 guys. And That Guy is a complete ##^#&^%$^%^**,

but he is my friend."

So, FFG first loses you as a customer because you start using 3rd party's products to make a better SW game, and then they permanently lose you as a customer because you get tired of all the extra DIY work to make the game "good" and quit the game.

OTOH, FFG could start making official stuff for casual play. DRPs buy it, and the game grows. That Guy is now wearing Official RAW Binders because FFG created the material. The other DRPs can just sit down an play. DRPs can even take the material to the FLGS, and since it is official, DRPs can play with new DRPs in a FLGS. No prep, no third party product, no redos on unbalanced ideas; just good ole XWM. Casual, like.

Filthy casuals. We don't need their scum.

2 hours ago, Turbo Toker said:

Winning is fun.

I don't disagree (unless it's a complete one-sided blowout, even those aren't fun for the winner sometimes), but I guess I could've been more clear that someone people play primarily for winning and fun is secondary, and vice versa.

59 minutes ago, Asterus said:

This thread is aids

And you just stuck your quill in it. Nasty.

This thread and the OP are exactly why I still won't play tourneys, and also contributes to the illusory rift between casual and tourney tiers.

Also why there needs to be better moderation of these forums; it's like a bar overrun by campus frat-holes whose collars are popped up so tall they can't hear the old-timers commiserating about the last few bodies they had to hide.

53 minutes ago, ObiWonka said:

I don't disagree (unless it's a complete one-sided blowout, even those aren't fun for the winner sometimes), but I guess I could've been more clear that someone people play primarily for winning and fun is secondary, and vice versa.

Until we get significant cash prizes in x-wing (which probably won't happen, the game is too sloppy at its core to become a true e-sport), I would argue even the guys that play primarily for winning are doing so because, to them, winning is the most fun they can get in this game.

2 hours ago, Turbo Toker said:

Winning is fun.

There is a false dichotomy between winning and having fun. I'm sick and tired of people think you are only interested in one or the other, and actually trying at this game should not come with the stigma that you're not playing for fun, it's a load of ****.

Nah, the dichotomy exists, you're just missing the key point. Allow me to illustrate:

I play random battles on Pokémon Showdown, but those games I am unashamed to say I play to win. As in, I am decidedly not having fun if I'm dealt a team that I determine can't win vs my opponent's. So certain matches I would rather not play at all (and so I forfeit, sometimes even before a move is even made) rather than play knowing I'll lose. That's totally different than how I approach X-Wing (most likely because of the degree of strategic freedom in X-Wing making matches less deterministic, but that's not really relevant to the point...).

Point is, that's the difference between playing for fun and playing to win.

If you were to sit down at a table, know for 100% sure that you are going to lose, and still consider it worth playing through, then you're not only playing to win. You're playing because you're having fun just by playing. Call it practice, or a learning experience, or what have you, the fact that losing can have value to you means you're having fun without it being tied to winning.

YES, everyone would prefer to win, given the choice. But if you go to a tournament, and post up a losing record, and still consider it a day well spent, then you're not who we're referring to when we say that someone is playing to win.

Playing to win is when your record precludes you from making the cut, so you'd rather drop from the tournament than continue to play. That person is not having fun, else they'd keep playing. That person is playing to win.

(Also it's not like you make the decision to play to win or for fun once and then you're set for life, mood has a huge impact on your outlook)

7 minutes ago, Sparklelord said:

Nah, the dichotomy exists, you're just missing the key point. Allow me to illustrate:

I play random battles on Pokémon Showdown, but those games I am unashamed to say I play to win. As in, I am decidedly not having fun if I'm dealt a team that I determine can't win vs my opponent's. So certain matches I would rather not play at all (and so I forfeit, sometimes even before a move is even made) rather than play knowing I'll lose. That's totally different than how I approach X-Wing (most likely because of the degree of strategic freedom in X-Wing making matches less deterministic, but that's not really relevant to the point...).

Point is, that's the difference between playing for fun and playing to win.

If you were to sit down at a table, know for 100% sure that you are going to lose, and still consider it worth playing through, then you're not only playing to win. You're playing because you're having fun just by playing. Call it practice, or a learning experience, or what have you, the fact that losing can have value to you means you're having fun without it being tied to winning.

YES, everyone would prefer to win, given the choice. But if you go to a tournament, and post up a losing record, and still consider it a day well spent, then you're not who we're referring to when we say that someone is playing to win.

Playing to win is when your record precludes you from making the cut, so you'd rather drop from the tournament than continue to play. That person is not having fun, else they'd keep playing. That person is playing to win.

(Also it's not like you make the decision to play to win or for fun once and then you're set for life, mood has a huge impact on your outlook)

You can enjoy the game even when you're losing and still enjoy it more when you're winning. This is because winning is fun.

This is just a defense mechanism, to guard against players that are better than you, or that take the game seriously when you just have a casual attitude towards it.

If someone beats you, or wins an event while you lose, it's comforting to say, "I just came here to play for fun, not to win."

That's fine that you have this defense mechanism, but don't project this false dichotomy on others. Competitive players generally enjoy the game regardless of whether or not they're winning, but they enjoy the game even more when they're winning.

You can have fun and win, and still have the capacity to enjoy losses. Stop trying to demonize people that try to win as WAAC-off try hards.