27 minutes ago, Stu35 said:

You and I have differing opinions on them opening factories in China for a product they'll mostly sell in America and Europe.

I live in the former industrial heartland of Britain, theres a lot of unemployed people here who'd kill for a factory making dice and cards to open.

I'm sure America has plenty of similar places.

In these places they could shorten their logistic chain to their main customers.

Of course in these places they'd have to pay workers a fair wage and comply with more regulations. That might eat slightly into their precious profit.

Tl;dr: Blow your 'yay jobs' bollocks up your arse with the rest of your snivelling attempts to excuse FFGs continued failures.

Also would make it cheaper to get product out to the US and EU, if they had their own printing facilities. Instead of relying on a boat that may take up to 3-4 MONTHS to get there.

1 minute ago, GamerGuy1984 said:

Also would make it cheaper to get product out to the US and EU, if they had their own printing facilities. Instead of relying on a boat that may take up to 3-4 MONTHS to get there.

It might make it cheaper to get the product from factory to customer, but I'm fairly confident that savings would not compare to the increased cost in production. That's why so many manufacturing jobs have been moved to China (and other low-wage countries) in the first place.

12 minutes ago, GamerGuy1984 said:

Also would make it cheaper to get product out to the US and EU, if they had their own printing facilities.

No, it wouldn't.

5 minutes ago, GooeyChewie said:

It might make it cheaper to get the product from factory to customer, but I'm fairly confident that savings would not compare to the increased cost in production. That's why so many manufacturing jobs have been moved to China (and other low-wage countries) in the first place.

Indeed - it's cheaper to pay for boats to sail round the world than it is to hire westerners to build things.

The savings costs in labour, materials and having to comply with stringent regulations across the board far outweigh a tank of Diesel on cargo ship - and those ships are huge.

At least MiniMarket warned their customers this time, instead of sending them an email saying their shipment was on its way only to reply over a week later with, the "I'm sorry, you didn't make this wave." They must be learning, but will still never receive my play group's business ever again.

It seems to me like this game may be stretching FFG. Their insistence on shipping in waves makes them seem in a poor cash-flow situation. Shipping in waves only makes those that didn't make the first wave upset. Why do that if you aren't cash poor and trying to recover investment of wave one to help push out the next waves. If you were in a strong, stable, cash position, just move your release date to when all your product is in its destination warehouse. Maybe their PR department is that dense or they just don't care, but doesn't make sense to me.

1 hour ago, gokubb said:

At least MiniMarket warned their customers this time, instead of sending them an email saying their shipment was on its way only to reply over a week later with, the "I'm sorry, you didn't make this wave." They must be learning, but will still never receive my play group's business ever again.

I too was originally unimpressed with how MM handled the Awakenings pre-order log-jam, but then upon reflection I see MM has been used as a scapegoat for the ginormous gap between the eventual demand and actual supply of the game. In theory no one's fault, but someone gets the blame, and unfortunately for MM it was them bearing the brunt of unwarranted abuse.

From MM's perspective it seems that they were never informed that they weren't going to be getting any more stock when they clearly kept placing orders with FFG for more. By the time it was figured out that there wasn’t any more stock coming in it was too late and MM left with several hundred pre-orders that they couldn’t fill.

FFG stayed way too silent on the issue for too long, when even though they claim to have printed their larges run ever still wasn’t close enough to what was needed.

Then FFG started advertising SoR without even mentioning the product shortages, as if none of it was even happening, building hype for what now appears to be another severely under supplied print run. Fool me once, shame on me, fool me twice….

They have even now already previewed a card from the 3rd set, building the hype train for EaW, and should the issues persist it tells me that the manufacturing process is too slow to react to market conditions, and that this game will never get the potential we all know it has.

FFG should focus on ramping up production rather than selling the game, the game sells itself.

But if all the hype does is point out the glaring inadequacies FFG's production capacities then its bad for everyone.

1 hour ago, Mace Windu said:

I too was originally unimpressed with how MM handled the Awakenings pre-order log-jam, but then upon reflection I see MM has been used as a scapegoat for the ginormous gap between the eventual demand and actual supply of the game. In theory no one's fault, but someone gets the blame, and unfortunately for MM it was them bearing the brunt of unwarranted abuse.

From MM's perspective it seems that they were never informed that they weren't going to be getting any more stock when they clearly kept placing orders with FFG for more. By the time it was figured out that there wasn’t any more stock coming in it was too late and MM left with several hundred pre-orders that they couldn’t fill.

And yet no other major retailer was left in a similar position. So we're all of them told something MM wasn't? That seems unlikely. Or did they just figure out that if every order they had placed had come up short that they should likely stop taking new orders?

MM was left holding hundreds of orders because they were the only retailer that continued to accept them past the first week of January. Every other online retailer stopped, so why didn't MM?

That's why MM got the abuse, because every other retailer stopped taking orders they weren't sure would ever be filled. MM didn't. Not only that but MM asserted at multiple times that all orders for delivery by X date had been filled, and then customers of theirs came and said that was only true because they changed the dates. All the while their singles store was stocked which they explained as differing distribution channels that couldn't overlap. Even if that's accurate you still have a situation where they are continuing to diminish the stock of booster boxes by ordering boxes for singles use, while they have hundreds of back orders.

Shortages are on FFG, but MM has handled them worse then their competitors. They missed the memo that every other retailer apparently got and sold a lot of product they didn't have reason to believe they could deliver in a timely fashion, if at all.

how many times can this community be fooled before it stops making excuses for a company that not once but more then twice repeated the same issue, there a pattern forming here they seems to be ignored.

for those saying we will get it in time and to be happy it is coming at all are nuts. I value my time and my money and I expect the company to value it as well, the time and money I used to invest in this set could have went toward something else that will actually be on time and have product on shelves to buy.

I don't care how good/fun the game is when the main company is killing it before it even arrives. the fun factor of a game don't matter when no one plays or ever able to get product and updating there decks.

This will be the last time I post on this topic. What is really starting to bother me is the conversations between members of the community bantering back and fourth over fan boys and entitled brats.

If you don't want to support this game or FFG anymore then why are you still posting on these forums? People saying their time is precious and that should be respected or saying this is the last straw with the miss management that FFG does with all their products. Then please just leave. You may or may not be missed I am not sure. What I do know is that we have heard your issues with the distribution and with FFG but we are still buying. So continue to be negative but I really hope all the people upset I wish you all the best in finding a hobby that meets all of your needs.

Everything that happened to MM they did it to themselves. They were the ones that accepted money for a product they simply had no information, and there for no business selling, on the quantity they would receive. They continued to do so after all the other retailers who knew better stopped. MM even invented a shipment and presold, accepting money, for a shipment that never existed. They just made that one up. They did all of this on their own. It took them a while but they finally learned from their errors. So no, they are not a scapegoat, just stupid.

The reason why products are made in China have a lot to do with US tax code. First money made over seas is taxed over seas by the country it was made in. However to bring that money home to the US, it gets taxed again, if it is in the form of cash. Most companies simply choose to not repatriate money made over seas. What they can do is send the cash to China, tax free, have products made there, and then send those goods to the US, tariff free, tax free, and the sell those goods and get the money. The US is very stupid with how it handles its taxes. We should not tax any cash that comes into our country but instead tax money that leaves the country. We need to do the inverse on goods. It is the tax code, along with cheaper labor, that causes all the trade imbalances. This is a problem the US creates for itself and has nothing to do with other countries or currencies or any of that kind of stuff. Just like MM, we did it to ourselves.

FFG with Destiny is a good example of why making goods in China is challenging. It took them a long time to get their production issues worked out and it takes a couple of months to ship those products over. Cheap labor isn't itself worth all that hassle but once you throw in the tax code issues, the math works out in favor of over seas production. Had they done production in the US, they could have had a small but steady supply of Awakening this whole time. Instead they are still a couple months away. It would have also been much easier for them to have replacement dice delivered to FFG customer service and better served those with misprinted dice. Instead all they could do was open booster boxes and send a booster out.

@Thanoseid I agree that people are over reacting to the supply issues. I am willing to give FFG a free pass for now, simply because this is a new game with unknown demand. Come December and they still have this problem, then yeah, all the complainers have a very legitimate complaint. For now, not so much. They have a hit game on their hands, supply issues happen to anyone with a new product that is a hit, it can be worked out.

FFG does however have a history on erroring on the side of selling out rather than over producing. TBH, that is smart business, but it does leave a lot of people annoyed at them when they can't buy that hot new product they put out. So I understand why people are upset even if there is no need to beat a dead horse.

5 hours ago, Thanoseid said:

This will be the last time I post on this topic. What is really starting to bother me is the conversations between members of the community bantering back and fourth over fan boys and entitled brats.

If you don't want to support this game or FFG anymore then why are you still posting on these forums? People saying their time is precious and that should be respected or saying this is the last straw with the miss management that FFG does with all their products. Then please just leave. You may or may not be missed I am not sure. What I do know is that we have heard your issues with the distribution and with FFG but we are still buying. So continue to be negative but I really hope all the people upset I wish you all the best in finding a hobby that meets all of your needs.

whether i care about the game or not is not relevant to ffg screwing up,if you don't want to hear your idols be held accountable then it's you that needs to leave. It's not being NEGATIVE it's being truthful to the situation there a difference

I am getting tired of being labeled entitled because I don't just accept the crap they put in my dog bowl no matter what it is, like some members in the community seem to be doing. I expect them to be professional and not this screw up one after another most ppl be fired if they were late this much. They apparently don't learn from there mistakes because they keep making them over and over. ever other ccg get;s this why is ffg excluded of accountability.

5 hours ago, Mep said:

@Thanoseid I agree that people are over reacting to the supply issues. I am willing to give FFG a free pass for now, simply because this is a new game with unknown demand. Come December and they still have this problem, then yeah, all the complainers have a very legitimate complaint. For now, not so much. They have a hit game on their hands, supply issues happen to anyone with a new product that is a hit, it can be worked out.

FFG does however have a history on erroring on the side of selling out rather than over producing. TBH, that is smart business, but it does leave a lot of people annoyed at them when they can't buy that hot new product they put out. So I understand why people are upset even if there is no need to beat a dead horse.

over reacting how? this is not the first, not the second, this is the third time this happened when are they going to learn? How many players will this game lose if this continues happening? there under produce plan is completely stupid, in a ccg you have to over produce the demand for it. you need packs for tourneys, sealed, draft, random ppl that once to buy a pach, ect. if they did any research they would new this.

I very, very much doubt that FFG are intentionally underproducing. If the game is more popular than they expected and demand vastly outstrips their production capacity, what do they do? Delay the product until they can release a bunch of it at once? (No, that's stupid). Not produce the game in the first place? Maybe they could fast track more product, but I doubt that the average poster knows anywhere near enough about production to actually have an informed opinion on that.

Will the game lose players from delays? Absolutely. That's not the question; the question is can FFG actually do anything about it at this point? They can't magic product onto shelves. They can't just say 'Hi factory guys, we need 1000 more boxes of product, please have them done by the end of the week'.

Was FFG unprepared for the scale of the game? It certainly seems so. Have they had bad communication on the subject? I think definitely yes (though not any worse than a lot of other companies). Those are things that really need to be addressed.

2 hours ago, soviet prince said:

...in a ccg you have to over produce the demand for it...

So, exactly how many boxes is being demanded?

first step would be to look into similar companys and how much they produce since they don't have the problem.

Two-three boxes per player each month should be enough.

9 hours ago, soviet prince said:

I am getting tired of being labeled entitled because I don't just accept the crap they put in my dog bowl no matter what it is,

I don't know how to tell you this, but you will not be sent to the Gulag if you don't buy this product.

Or, to put it another way, no one is feeding you anything with you having no choice but to accept it. You don't like the way FFG is doing this? Join the club. But for you to act like anyone owes you anything is a joke. This is the way the game is. Due to the way that they have to manufacture it and the cost and lead time, they can't do the quantities that strictly card games can. Again, you don't like it, go pout and pound sand.

You are acting as if you are entitled to product. You are not.

eBay is full of people that cashed out, if you can't deal, maybe you should consider doing the same.

I agree. Blah blah blah. Same entitlement nonsense as when awakenings came out. FFG is not going to send you a free booster because of the inconvenience low/no stock causes you. If you don't like the game or the distribution model then maybe you should look some where else. Otherwise suck it up and buy the cards where you can. It is a collectible card game after all. If they printed unlimited numbers then it wouldn't be very collectible.

22 minutes ago, Grunkin said:

If they printed unlimited numbers then it wouldn't be very collectible.

You can walk into any Barnes and Noble and buy Magic boosters that were printed a year and a half ago, and those cards still have value.

48 minutes ago, Grunkin said:

I agree. Blah blah blah. Same entitlement nonsense as when awakenings came out. FFG is not going to send you a free booster because of the inconvenience low/no stock causes you. If you don't like the game or the distribution model then maybe you should look some where else. Otherwise suck it up and buy the cards where you can. It is a collectible card game after all. If they printed unlimited numbers then it wouldn't be very collectible.

Unlimited stock only hurts scalpers and people seeing a GAME as a investment. If your in games to make money there are better ways to make it and not mess over those actually wanting to play.

10 hours ago, soviet prince said:

first step would be to look into similar companys and how much they produce since they don't have the problem.

Force of Will did that, how that turn out for them.

Magic is a great example of a game that when it first comes out, and is a hit, has all kinds of supply issues for a long time, only to over react and over produce a set. Yes you can still buy Fallen Empires at retail stores. Hasbro has had a couple of decades to figure out their demand and meet it. They still have issues from time to time with product selling out before demand is met.

49 minutes ago, Mep said:

Force of Will did that, how that turn out for them.

Magic is a great example of a game that when it first comes out, and is a hit, has all kinds of supply issues for a long time, only to over react and over produce a set. Yes you can still buy Fallen Empires at retail stores. Hasbro has had a couple of decades to figure out their demand and meet it. They still have issues from time to time with product selling out before demand is met.

And Hasbro has the pockets to take a hit from over production. If FFG orders 1 googleplex of Destiny then they have to pay for that, package it, ship it, warehouse it, distribute it and invoice for it before they get recoup their investment. Meanwhile they are incurring costs the whole way.

Additionally, if they use the same facilities to produce multiple lines it delays production of those other lines which leads to people being pissed across all their product lines.

I get that there are a lot of myopic entitled types here who think FFG should be all Destiny all the time but that ain't reality folks.

I am sure we'll get plenty of supply. Getting a full play set was not hard. If you didn't get one then you either A) live in podunk (in which case, tough) or B) didn't try hard enough.

40 minutes ago, loki_tbc said:

I am sure we'll get plenty of supply. Getting a full play set was not hard. If you didn't get one then you either A) live in podunk (in which case, tough) or B) didn't try hard enough.

Now THIS is what entitlement looks like.

59 minutes ago, Buhallin said:

Now THIS is what entitlement looks like.

No, THIS is what being privileged to live in the 3rd Largest City in the United States AND having pre-ordered and been willing to spend the money to get what I wanted looks like. I am not entitled to jack squat. If you want it, you put the circumstances in place so it makes it more likely you can get it.

Yes, privilege and circumstance are huge selling points for all that empathy you're oozing right now.