Ok, I've been out of the game for about a year. My biggest problem is that what excited me about this game when it first released was playing cool thematic forces like Darth Vader flanked by his two TIE Fighter escorts or Luke, Biggs and Wedge but that's not really super competitive anymore. I think blanket fixes don't seem to fix the mid-PS ships.

So why don't we have some small incentive to playing theme forces? Essentially if you build a list with a handful of constraints (only X-Wings, all ships must contain proton torpedoes, etc) and you get some bonus to the list. It works in a good number of tabletop games, why not here?

My opinion would be that the whole theme of X wing is building your own squads and trying out different things. If you make Biggs + X + Y have a bonus together it further constrains that idea.

It's already bad enough that there are "meta" lists; builds that out perform others in every way, so if you also have theme lists that get bonuses it will limit people's list building because if they throw a non theme, not meta build against the theme'd one they're at a severe disadvantage purely through rules.

It's not really a bad idea, but with how X wing works I don't think it would do well.

There is a lot to the game outside of the tournament scene. Many people play what's generally known as "Casual" X-wing. The past year has seen this style get more attention. Basically, if you can find other people that are interested in playing something other than tournament 100/6 (100 pts and 6 rocks), then you should be fine.

Dagobah Dave made a Trench Run mission that was really fun. He even updated it with feedback from people on these forums. You can recreate the whole Battle of Yavin. I've done it and it's a lot of fun.

There are a lot of various missions and campaigns from FFG that are fun to do. Mission Control also has a lot of fan made ones. Babaganoosh does numerous good missions.

Heroes of the Aturi Cluster is something that has saved a lot of people from quitting the game. It's a fan made campaign that is co-operative. Everyone flies a Rebel ship vs. AI controlled Empire. Linked missions that tell a story and you can improve your pilot and ship. If you haven't tried it, I highly recommend it.

Just playing a themed game with friends is a ton of fun. Pick some random point cost and play a historic game. So, limit your options based on what was at that time period. Some people have even been building tournaments around this idea.

If you are interested in non-tournament ways to play, check out the Shuttle Tydirium podcast. We cover all the crazy ways to play the game, including Mario Kart X-wing.

I think there was some attempt to make certain fluffy combinations work, usually within a ship though. Lando and Nien Numb work particularly well together, as do Rey and Finn or Kyle and Jan. Manaroo and Mindlink is a good one (not entirely positive that was intentional but it certainly is fluffy), there are various combinations of the Ghost crew that seem to work particularly well together, Zuckuss and 4-LOM and so on.

The problem is compared with this rather elegant way of encouraging fluffy lists (sure you can take finn on other ships, but works best with Rey anyway), artificial force constraints seems a bit ... stifling.

I think this covers things like the 'Rogue Squadron' title card in another package. I like the idea but am not sure it would be a route ffg would go down.

1 hour ago, heychadwick said:

There is a lot to the game outside of the tournament scene. Many people play what's generally known as "Casual" X-wing. The past year has seen this style get more attention. Basically, if you can find other people that are interested in playing something other than tournament 100/6 (100 pts and 6 rocks), then you should be fine.

Dagobah Dave made a Trench Run mission that was really fun. He even updated it with feedback from people on these forums. You can recreate the whole Battle of Yavin. I've done it and it's a lot of fun.

There are a lot of various missions and campaigns from FFG that are fun to do. Mission Control also has a lot of fan made ones. Babaganoosh does numerous good missions.

Heroes of the Aturi Cluster is something that has saved a lot of people from quitting the game. It's a fan made campaign that is co-operative. Everyone flies a Rebel ship vs. AI controlled Empire. Linked missions that tell a story and you can improve your pilot and ship. If you haven't tried it, I highly recommend it.

Just playing a themed game with friends is a ton of fun. Pick some random point cost and play a historic game. So, limit your options based on what was at that time period. Some people have even been building tournaments around this idea.

If you are interested in non-tournament ways to play, check out the Shuttle Tydirium podcast. We cover all the crazy ways to play the game, including Mario Kart X-wing.

HotAC has spawned its own community with a ton of custom campaigns, upgrades, new ships, etc. There's lots to be done in that, and you can even play it solo.

I love theme forces in other games, but they generally work best when they are used to create subfactions instead of very specific lists. I could, for example, see FFG provide a benefit for running Resistance or FO only ships or something in the future once those groups have had a chance to expand. The only other thing I could see is benefits for running a list of all 1 type of ship.

I could see something like "Gold Leader" restricted to Dutch that was something like "when this model acquires a Target Lock, all Gold Squadron Pilots may also acquire a target lot" or something like that to incentivise a theme list. Maybe even something that lowers the cost of specific generics to go along with their leader.

2 hours ago, ricefrisbeetreats said:

So why don't we have some small incentive to playing theme forces? Essentially if you build a list with a handful of constraints (only X-Wings, all ships must contain proton torpedoes, etc) and you get some bonus to the list. It works in a good number of tabletop games, why not here?

There have been a handful of people (myself included) advocating Squadron mechanics. There are several recent threads discussing the possibility. It remains a homebrew-only notion at this point; Wave XI doesn't look to support anything more than the usual slug-fest.

10 minutes ago, LunarSol said:

I love theme forces in other games, but they generally work best when they are used to create subfactions instead of very specific lists. I could, for example, see FFG provide a benefit for running Resistance or FO only ships or something in the future once those groups have had a chance to expand.

Yeah, I come from Warmachine/Hordes where they usually create subgroups. I was thinking things like "Attack on the Death Star" theme where you can only fly X-Wings and Y-Wings with pilots that were at the Battle of Yavin. Essentially list building constraints that give bonuses for following specific guidelines.

I don't think this would specifically hurt the current lists, but gives players an alternative way to play more thematic forces that can (hopefully) keep up with the competitive environment. I think it might just be the local groups I see, but I have yet to see anyone play anything beyond the standard 100pts, build the most powerful thing you can fly in preparation for the next tournament.

11 minutes ago, ricefrisbeetreats said:

Yeah, I come from Warmachine/Hordes where they usually create subgroups. I was thinking things like "Attack on the Death Star" theme where you can only fly X-Wings and Y-Wings with pilots that were at the Battle of Yavin. Essentially list building constraints that give bonuses for following specific guidelines.

I don't think this would specifically hurt the current lists, but gives players an alternative way to play more thematic forces that can (hopefully) keep up with the competitive environment. I think it might just be the local groups I see, but I have yet to see anyone play anything beyond the standard 100pts, build the most powerful thing you can fly in preparation for the next tournament.

At this point, the tournament crew would never go for it. They would be too upset if it was forced on everyone to deal with. If you want to either set up your own tournaments that are run historically....or just play for fun outside of tournaments, I think you can get what you want.

28 minutes ago, ricefrisbeetreats said:

Yeah, I come from Warmachine/Hordes where they usually create subgroups. I was thinking things like "Attack on the Death Star" theme where you can only fly X-Wings and Y-Wings with pilots that were at the Battle of Yavin. Essentially list building constraints that give bonuses for following specific guidelines.

I don't think this would specifically hurt the current lists, but gives players an alternative way to play more thematic forces that can (hopefully) keep up with the competitive environment. I think it might just be the local groups I see, but I have yet to see anyone play anything beyond the standard 100pts, build the most powerful thing you can fly in preparation for the next tournament.

Warmahordes!!!!!

Just got into that game, LOVE IT.

3 hours ago, ricefrisbeetreats said:

Ok, I've been out of the game for about a year. My biggest problem is that what excited me about this game when it first released was playing cool thematic forces like Darth Vader flanked by his two TIE Fighter escorts or Luke, Biggs and Wedge but that's not really super competitive anymore. I think blanket fixes don't seem to fix the mid-PS ships.

So why don't we have some small incentive to playing theme forces? Essentially if you build a list with a handful of constraints (only X-Wings, all ships must contain proton torpedoes, etc) and you get some bonus to the list. It works in a good number of tabletop games, why not here?

@heychadwick has this covered as usual! I'd could only add to try writing two thematic lists (one Rebel, one Empire) and let your opponent choose which one to play (which I will have to credit the Tydirum podcast for).

Also, there's nothing stopping you having house rules rewarding thematic lists either like you say.

Officially the odds of getting anything like this must be 3,720 to 1. I see the tournament scene is the focus of this game. It must be very important to FFG looking at the size of the FAQ and Errata and how precise the rules are getting.

19 minutes ago, Sasajak said:

Officially the odds of getting anything like this must be 3,720 to 1. I see the tournament scene is the focus of this game. It must be very important to FFG looking at the size of the FAQ and Errata and how precise the rules are getting.

That doesn't really address that many other tabletop games have theme force options that are also tournament worthy. For instance in Warmachine where you're given specific list building guidelines usually focused on a smaller sub-theme of a larger force that gives you extra points or maybe a small bonus to the units you're using. Many of these theme forces are totally viable in tournament play and help to incentivize people into playing with units that maybe they wouldn't have used otherwise.

I could house rule a game to death, but it is largely irrelevant. What I'm trying to look at is the idea of these as an area for mining mechanics for the game as a part of the official game, which is what I'm interested in. If I go to a game shop and say, "all right, I'm playing a theme force that says all my Black Squadron TIEs are now 2 points cheaper if my list has only Black Squadron TIEs and all of them have an elite pilot talent" they're going to laugh me out of the store. In Warmachine/Hordes, I literally have a theme force where all of one specific unit gain 3 hit points a piece if you follow the specific guidelines in list building. Privateer Press also has a pretty tight rules set focused on tournament play so I don't see the argument that it being a tournament focused game negates certain areas of design.

38 minutes ago, ricefrisbeetreats said:

That doesn't really address that many other tabletop games have theme force options that are also tournament worthy. For instance in Warmachine where you're given specific list building guidelines usually focused on a smaller sub-theme of a larger force that gives you extra points or maybe a small bonus to the units you're using. Many of these theme forces are totally viable in tournament play and help to incentivize people into playing with units that maybe they wouldn't have used otherwise.

I could house rule a game to death, but it is largely irrelevant. What I'm trying to look at is the idea of these as an area for mining mechanics for the game as a part of the official game, which is what I'm interested in . If I go to a game shop and say, "all right, I'm playing a theme force that says all my Black Squadron TIEs are now 2 points cheaper if my list has only Black Squadron TIEs and all of them have an elite pilot talent" they're going to laugh me out of the store. In Warmachine/Hordes, I literally have a theme force where all of one specific unit gain 3 hit points a piece if you follow the specific guidelines in list building. Privateer Press also has a pretty tight rules set focused on tournament play so I don't see the argument that it being a tournament focused game negates certain areas of design.

Yeah, another point that has made multiple times, only to be shouted down that "casuals" don't need official rules for fluff and "can play anyway we want" without sullying the preciously myopic tournament scene with silly thematic rules.

Sure hope not, they ruined Warmachine. Hope FFG doesn't fall into the same trap. Maybe for epic only? That'd be alright.

13 minutes ago, chervorlovesu said:

Sure hope not, they ruined Warmachine. Hope FFG doesn't fall into the same trap. Maybe for epic only? That'd be alright.

I didn't really care for their implementation in MK2, but the MK3 versions are significantly more interesting, imo. Of course, much of that comes from the edition being designed around them from the beginning.

15 minutes ago, chervorlovesu said:

Sure hope not, they ruined Warmachine. Hope FFG doesn't fall into the same trap. Maybe for epic only? That'd be alright.

How so? The majority of them were solid and gave good options. In MK2, many of the Warcasters that were considered useless had good theme forces that bumped them up a little bit. There's always going to be a few outliers that are too good (thinking of the Elemental Troll one) but that doesn't really negate the whole idea of theme forces. A firm hand on the rules is the best option to keep balance anyways. If something is out of control, they should fix it.

How about something like this?

*Flight Leader(EPT)
Small Ship Only
3 points

After this ship is placed during setup, assign the Wingmate condition to up to 2 friendly non-unique pilots of the same ship type at range 1.

Wingmate (Condition)

Ships with the Wingmate may choose to skip their activation. If they do, they may activate after the ship equipped with Flight Leader activates instead. During the "Execute Maneuver," step, they must use the maneuver revealed on the Flight Leader's dial instead of their own.

When a ship with Wingmate does not skip their normal activation, discard this condition.

Essentially, two Red Squadron Pilots could be assigned as Wedge's wingmen, activating during both movement and combat when he does. It's Swarm Tactics, but without the movement flexibility.

I will say that Swarm Leader has made my Vader list much cooler. So.....you can build things thematic that are competitive, but it's not really easy.

It's something that has to be done very carefully. Flexibility in list building is a very important mechanic, so if something is introduced that cripples that flexibility, it's a problem.

I'd love to see a dynamic that gives incentives to create a red, black, gold etc squadron.

Obviously this ideas been kicked around for quite awhile. But I disagree with those who think that this would somehow be counter to competitive players wishes.

I'd love to see a more open meta. Playing mirror matches and clone lists for 7 or more rounds is not fun at all. If composition bonuses brought back ordnance YWings or triple X-Wings or TIE swarms or TIE Interceptors or AWings or any of the classic lore squadrons, why on earth would competitive players dislike that?

5 minutes ago, FlyingToaster said:

It's something that has to be done very carefully. Flexibility in list building is a very important mechanic, so if something is introduced that cripples that flexibility, it's a problem.

If flexibility is that important, the game desperately needs a more flexible point system to support it.

7 minutes ago, FlyingToaster said:

It's something that has to be done very carefully. Flexibility in list building is a very important mechanic, so if something is introduced that cripples that flexibility, it's a problem.

If done the way Warmachine/ Hordes do it, it is Entirely optional by the player in question.

1 hour ago, LunarSol said:

I didn't really care for their implementation in MK2, but the MK3 versions are significantly more interesting, imo. Of course, much of that comes from the edition being designed around them from the beginning.

Yeah, in mk3 they seem much better. Honestly, I haven't played much since mk3 dropped. They were completely out of control in mk2.

2 hours ago, ricefrisbeetreats said:

I don't see the argument that it being a tournament focused game negates certain areas of design.

Well, unfortunately, in X-Wing tournament > "casual". For now that's the way FFG run it (evidenced by the recent great nerfing to "balance" the standard 100 point game). Sadly it's not an argument; it's just the way it is. I don't agree with it - honest!! Probably it makes them money and/or people like us who play thematically are either a minority or less vocal/visible than the tournament crowd. I'd love official rules making the game more thematic. I'd love an official campaign (Armada even has one!). But in the meantime I carry on making stuff up or playing HotAC. And when I'm feeling brave I even enter a tournament. Well someone's got to be the Bantha fodder I suppose.