Grey Jedi is a stupid concept. People love it because they love the anti-hero, like Punisher.

7 minutes ago, Sithborg said:

Grey Jedi is a stupid concept. People love it because they love the anti-hero, like Punisher.

Not necessarily. To me, the Force is too big a concept to accept that there is only a binary choice to be made (Jedi or Sith). The idea of Grey Jedi being something in the middle is interesting because of the implications of being in the middle means. Qui Gon was considered Grey by some, and Jolee Bindo is a Grey jedi who isn't an anti-hero.

All too often, I see it as justification for them to use dark side powers. Don't get me started on the concept of Emerald Judgement.

19 minutes ago, Sithborg said:

All too often, I see it as justification for them to use dark side powers. Don't get me started on the concept of Emerald Judgement.

That does depend on one's view of the force. I tend to subscribe to the notion that uses of the Force, including Force Lightning, is Light or Dark based on intention of the user rather than something intrinsic, so the idea of a Jedi, Grey or not, using it doesn't necessarily mean use of the Dark Side.

5 hours ago, hismhs said:

Would someone please be so kind as to explain to me what was so wrong with the Jedi? This thread reads like, "Yup, Hitler, Napoleon and Ghengis Khan were pretty awful, but Gandhi, Mother Theresa and Jesus were far too rigid in their own ways. We need more 'nuanced' force users."

Do people want heroes or not?

Or is it the whole celibacy thing that turns people off the Jedi? Do they want Jedi to have six weeks paid paternity leave and 'bring your son/daughter to work' days?

I think it's more the 'try not to be human' thing.

If he sees you suffering a Jedi doesn't feel sorry for you. He doesn't help you because he emotionally cares about your pain or well-being. He is simply following a moral code.

On 4/17/2017 at 3:20 AM, Shadow345 said:

If Luke turned to the darkside and wanted to wipe out the Jedi and bring peace to the galaxy.

Why would he need to turn to the dark side? At this point, all he has to do to wipe out the Jedi is not train any new Jedi.

1 hour ago, LordBlades said:

I think it's more the 'try not to be human' thing.

If he sees you suffering a Jedi doesn't feel sorry for you. He doesn't help you because he emotionally cares about your pain or well-being. He is simply following a moral code.

I always thought Obi Wan was a kindly old gentleman. He appeared to be thunderstruck by the sudden death of billions of innocents on Alderaan. As a young man he took on the responsibility of looking after Anakin as a surrogate older brother, when he could have walked away. He could not bring himself to kill a fallen Anakin when he could and should have done. I love that character.

Now I realise that Obi Wan should have been less rigid and doctrinaire. He should have thrown the odd punch whenever a Jawa looked at him the wrong way, littered his conversations with F-bombs and taken the chance to knock up that vulnerable Twi'lek slave girl who was feeling low because her mother was ill.

Folks, I want heroes in my escapist fantasy world. Real-world inadequacies, I want to leave at the cinema door.

But real world inadequacies is what makes a hero interesting.

Achilles is interesting because he's a violent drunken arrogant egotistical lowlife. Which is why we root for him over other, better Greek heroes and even Hector.

Many historical idols are beloved because they are such monsters. Look at the cult of Alexander and Genghis Khan, both of whom were vandals and mass murderers on various scales.

26 minutes ago, Xerandar said:

But real world inadequacies is what makes a hero interesting. Achilles is interesting because he's a violent drunken arrogant egotistical lowlife. Which is why we root for him over other, better Greek heroes and even Hector.

I certainly wouldn't ever root for "a violent drunken arrogant egotistical lowlife," and I really don't recall Achilles being portrayed in such a negative light (the Wikipedia article on him indicates that it was the Romans who emphasised his flaws, because of their link to their supposed Trojan ancestors).

34 minutes ago, Xerandar said:

Many historical idols are beloved because they are such monsters. Look at the cult of Alexander and Genghis Khan, both of whom were vandals and mass murderers on various scales.

Yes, they were idolised by peoples with very different moral compasses from our wesern, Judao-Christian outlook. Quite a few people have idolised (and some continue to idolise) Hitler; that doesn't mean our fictional heroes need to be 'monsters'.

I highly recommend reading the Iliad and Odyssey, rather than relying on wiki as they are staple stories of Western culture (which, for better or for worse, underpins a lot of modern media). But I think you'll find the desecration of Hector's corpse to be pretty bad for modern society and even worse for ancient societies and hardly made up by the Romans (as it's a crucial plot point)

Alexander and Genghis still are idolised by people, oddly enough within the western cultural spheres (curiously the spheres who suffered least from them). Ask an Iranian or Chinese person about Alexander or Genghis and you might get a different, more hostile answer.

Ultimately the point is, the more you look at your favourite heroes and critically evaluate them, the more monstrous and less hero-like they appear. Because that is the nature of what is to be human and also what makes them compelling to begin with.

>Save Star Wars

lol what a silly thing to say

Star Wars has never needed saving.

8 hours ago, Sithborg said:

Grey Jedi is a stupid concept. People love it because they love the anti-hero, like Punisher.

The worst ones are the guys who try to make a Grey Jedi code.

That's literally the antithesis of being one. Also, all the power none of the responsibility, whoo! Why make a decision or pick a side when you can just be a butthead?

#GREYLIFE

5 hours ago, hismhs said:

I always thought Obi Wan was a kindly old gentleman. He appeared to be thunderstruck by the sudden death of billions of innocents on Alderaan. As a young man he took on the responsibility of looking after Anakin as a surrogate older brother, when he could have walked away. He could not bring himself to kill a fallen Anakin when he could and should have done. I love that character.

Now I realise that Obi Wan should have been less rigid and doctrinaire. He should have thrown the odd punch whenever a Jawa looked at him the wrong way, littered his conversations with F-bombs and taken the chance to knock up that vulnerable Twi'lek slave girl who was feeling low because her mother was ill.

Folks, I want heroes in my escapist fantasy world. Real-world inadequacies, I want to leave at the cinema door.

Obi Wan was far from the perfect Jedi (in the acception of the Jedi code). He had friends(to whom he was emotionally attached), he cared for Anakin, he cared for troops under his command, all stuff he should have cast away according to the Jedi code and Yoda's teaching.

I meant people like Yoda or Windu. How many friends or things they really cared about did each have ?

Edit: Or like the Kotor 2 Jedi council (no longer canon though) and their entire treatment of Meetra Surik.

13 hours ago, hismhs said:

Would someone please be so kind as to explain to me what was so wrong with the Jedi? This thread reads like, "Yup, Hitler, Napoleon and Ghengis Khan were pretty awful, but Gandhi, Mother Theresa and Jesus were far too rigid in their own ways. We need more 'nuanced' force users."

Do people want heroes or not?

Or is it the whole celibacy thing that turns people off the Jedi? Do they want Jedi to have six weeks paid paternity leave and 'bring your son/daughter to work' days?

Much simpler than that. We (the culture at large) have lost sight or let go of the idea that there is right and wrong. In our current day despite that we do tend to honor the military and police there is still a certain aspect of self-sacrifice being for suckers. Of being a person of honor and integrity and principles makes you a mark. "Evil will always defeat good because good is dumb."

25 minutes ago, Frimmel said:

Much simpler than that. We (the culture at large) have lost sight or let go of the idea that there is right and wrong. In our current day despite that we do tend to honor the military and police there is still a certain aspect of self-sacrifice being for suckers. Of being a person of honor and integrity and principles makes you a mark. "Evil will always defeat good because good is dumb."

No, I think that's off the mark and it isn't about Grey Jedi or Anti-Hero's. It is about breaking a cycle that has gone on throughout history in the Star Wars universe of Chaos and Order.

Luke is still a hero, in fact he is the Chosen one to balance the force and Rey will be his first apprentice.

Balance isn't about being an anti-hero, it is about the realization that you cannot rid yourself of emotion and you cannot stop change but you can manage your emotions and you can adapt to change.

The choice of HATE or NO EMOTION is neither productive nor possible. You do not embrace Yin or Yan, but the balance, compassion, empathy.

4 minutes ago, Jetfire said:

No, I think that's off the mark and it isn't about Grey Jedi or Anti-Hero's. It is about breaking a cycle that has gone on throughout history in the Star Wars universe of Chaos and Order.

Luke is still a hero, in fact he is the Chosen one to balance the force and Rey will be his first apprentice.

Balance isn't about being an anti-hero, it is about the realization that you cannot rid yourself of emotion and you cannot stop change but you can manage your emotions and you can adapt to change.

The choice of HATE or NO EMOTION is neither productive nor possible. You do not embrace Yin or Yan, but the balance, compassion, empathy.

Being a Jedi isn't a choice of "no emotion." You aren't to rid yourself of emotion and tightly clamp them down and lock them away. That's the Vulcans (and not quite the whole picture.) You aren't to be ruled by them. You aren't to let them blind you to your duty and honor and the needs of others. You aren't to let them keep you from being mindful.

In what ways do The Sith embrace balance and compassion and empathy?

Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.

Free them from what? Victory over what? Victory over peace? The chains of caring and sacrificing for others?

Adapting to change is what Yoda was trying to teach Anakin by reminding him he needs to let go of the things he fears to lose. It isn't the way of the Jedi that creates the Sith. The Jedi are might for right and The Sith are might makes right. This is not a cycle of chaos created by The Jedi.

41 minutes ago, Frimmel said:

Being a Jedi isn't a choice of "no emotion." You aren't to rid yourself of emotion and tightly clamp them down and lock them away. That's the Vulcans (and not quite the whole picture.) You aren't to be ruled by them. You aren't to let them blind you to your duty and honor and the needs of others. You aren't to let them keep you from being mindful.

In what ways do The Sith embrace balance and compassion and empathy?

Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.

Free them from what? Victory over what? Victory over peace? The chains of caring and sacrificing for others?

Adapting to change is what Yoda was trying to teach Anakin by reminding him he needs to let go of the things he fears to lose. It isn't the way of the Jedi that creates the Sith. The Jedi are might for right and The Sith are might makes right. This is not a cycle of chaos created by The Jedi.

Umm... The Sith don't balance anything.

The Jedi order was rigid, hierarchical and dogmatic. The Sith were chaotic, violent and unhindered by tradition.

Neither is a sustainable path... as illustrated by the eternal conflict of wave after wave of Chaos and Order, Sith and Jedi sweeping over the galaxy like a forest building up and being purged by fire. It's the natural order. Luke is going to take it to a higher level where conscious beings become aware of the will of the force. Not simply trying to bend the force to their will like the Jedi or the Sith, but to understand and serve the force. Like a park ranger in said forest.

You can see this change occur in Yoda before he dies when he agrees to train Luke even though it is against the Jedi ways to train someone so old, Obi-wan after he fights Vader and rather than use force to try and win the duel uses it as an opportunity to show Luke and Vader the true nature of the force, Luke when he saves Anakin and comforts him in his final moments, Vader when he destroys the Emperor to save his son. They are throwing off the shackles of ideology and accepting the will of the force. The balance. Compassion and Empathy.

2 minutes ago, Jetfire said:

Umm... The Sith don't balance anything.

The Jedi order was rigid, hierarchical and dogmatic. The Sith were chaotic, violent and unhindered by tradition.

Neither is a sustainable path... as illustrated by the eternal conflict of wave after wave of Chaos and Order, Sith and Jedi sweeping over the galaxy like a forest building up and being purged by fire. It's the natural order. Luke is going to take it to a higher level where conscious beings become aware of the will of the force. Not simply trying to bend the force to their will like the Jedi or the Sith, but to understand and serve the force. Like a park ranger in said forest.

All I can say is that I hope that this is not the specious nonsense the next film will take its story from.

Jedi Code

There is no emotion, there is peace.

There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.

There is no passion, there is serenity.

There is no chaos, there is harmony.

There is no death, there is the Force.

Sith Code

Peace is a lie, there is only passion.

Through passion, I gain strength.

Through strength, I gain power.

Through power, I gain victory.

Through victory, my chains are broken.

The Force shall free me.

Peace is a lie.

The Force Code

The Force is Chaos and Order

Through the Force I gain Wisdom, Peace and Strength

I am one with the Force, the Force is with me.

3 minutes ago, Frimmel said:

All I can say is that I hope that this is not the specious nonsense the next film will take its story from.

Ok, well we'll see in a few months but they are telegraphing this pretty hard.

1 hour ago, Frimmel said:

Much simpler than that. We (the culture at large) have lost sight or let go of the idea that there is right and wrong. In our current day despite that we do tend to honor the military and police there is still a certain aspect of self-sacrifice being for suckers. Of being a person of honor and integrity and principles makes you a mark. "Evil will always defeat good because good is dumb."

I don't see it as a symptom of disbelief in right and wrong, but questioning what is in the right and what is in the wrong. Star Wars lore continually hints and suggestions that it is the balance which is right, meaning the extremes of light and darkness showned respectively by Jedi and Sith are wrong. If it wasn't for these hints, I would agree with you, but the lore of Star Wars itself is implying that something closer to the middle is best.

and I don't want it to sound like we should now consider the Jedi as bad as the Sith now. Most Jedi were heroes, but potentially working from a flawed doctrine that led to some of their own splitting of and becoming Sith.

Also, look at the popularity of Superhero movies of late. To me, this doesn't show a loss of what right and wrong are, nor that bad will always triumph over good. I think we cling to these and Star Wars because it shows us that good can win. It is hard fought and can cost a high price, but good can triumph over evil.

16 hours ago, hismhs said:

Would someone please be so kind as to explain to me what was so wrong with the Jedi? This thread reads like, "Yup, Hitler, Napoleon and Ghengis Khan were pretty awful, but Gandhi, Mother Theresa and Jesus were far too rigid in their own ways. We need more 'nuanced' force users."

Do people want heroes or not?

Or is it the whole celibacy thing that turns people off the Jedi? Do they want Jedi to have six weeks paid paternity leave and 'bring your son/daughter to work' days?

Jesus and Mother Theresa are known for embracing their emotions, not for being unattached to them. The whole thing about loving us all enough that he sacrificed himself is, you know, an emotional attachment.

Ghandi was a much more complex person than most people realize. Spend some time looking him up. Also he was always one of the first to drop the bomb in Civilization, so he had that going for him ;p

1 hour ago, Frimmel said:

Being a Jedi isn't a choice of "no emotion." You aren't to rid yourself of emotion and tightly clamp them down and lock them away. That's the Vulcans (and not quite the whole picture.) You aren't to be ruled by them. You aren't to let them blind you to your duty and honor and the needs of others. You aren't to let them keep you from being mindful.

In what ways do The Sith embrace balance and compassion and empathy?

Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.

Free them from what? Victory over what? Victory over peace? The chains of caring and sacrificing for others?

Adapting to change is what Yoda was trying to teach Anakin by reminding him he needs to let go of the things he fears to lose. It isn't the way of the Jedi that creates the Sith. The Jedi are might for right and The Sith are might makes right. This is not a cycle of chaos created by The Jedi.

Straw man much? From what I saw, no one claimed that the Sith represented balance.

Also, it is pretty obvious how biased you are when you quote the Sith code, but neglect to bring up the Jedi code, which, interestingly enough, counters your first point in its very first line: There is no emotion, there is peace.

At this point I can only guess that you are trolling us.

I'm not trolling you guys. I'm just coming at this from a radically different paradigm than it seems many others are. I don't think you guys are trolling me though I'd feel much better about this conversation if I thought you were.

I find it best not to base anything on the prequel chosen one dialog. None of that comes close to resembling a coherent thought or presents a meaningful plot element. Everyone is pretty much dumber for ever having listened to it. The Jedi are also losing their powers apparently or something. Also midichlorians.