I hate to blow up the Fleet Builds subforum, but I have two tournaments coming up, and final exams between here and there, so I'm crowdsourcing the brainpower I need to think these lists through.

So Grand Admiral Zaarin is not a commander, and likely never will be, since to my understanding a lot of the lore around the twelve Grand Admirals was not recanonized when Thrawn was, so he may be relegated to the dustbin of Star Wars history. (Long Live Legends! Anyway...) However, I keep hearing people say to the effect of, "When you bring Phantoms, you really want an Advanced to draw fire", and reasonably, seeing as the Phantoms are fourteen points apiece, but only four hull, and a keyword that does nothing to help that. (Folks at home, that's the second most expensive squadron per hull on the Imperial side, and third overall, to the Interceptors and the Lancers in first overall.) So I've got a couple ideas for how such a squadron wing would look, centered on a quartet of Advanced and a quartet of Phantoms, with a Jumpmaster to help the Advanced disengage as easily as the Phantoms can.

Zaarin's Shenanigans
Author: GiledPallaeon

Faction: Galactic Empire
Points: 397/400

Commander: Moff Jerjerrod

Assault Objective: Most Wanted
Defense Objective: Contested Outpost
Navigation Objective: Superior Positions

Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 points)
- Comms Net (2 points)
= 25 total ship cost

[ flagship ] Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 points)
- Moff Jerjerrod (23 points)
- Comms Net (2 points)
= 48 total ship cost

Victory I-Class Star Destroyer (73 points)
- Flight Commander (3 points)
- Ordnance Experts (4 points)
- Expanded Hangar Bay (5 points)
- Dual Turbolaser Turrets (5 points)
- Assault Proton Torpedoes (5 points)
= 95 total ship cost

Victory I-Class Star Destroyer (73 points)
- Flight Commander (3 points)
- Ordnance Experts (4 points)
- Expanded Hangar Bay (5 points)
- Dual Turbolaser Turrets (5 points)
- Assault Proton Torpedoes (5 points)
= 95 total ship cost

1 JumpMaster 5000 (12 points)
1 Darth Vader (21 points)
1 Zertik Strom (15 points)
2 TIE Advanced Squadrons (24 points)
1 Whisper (20 points)
3 TIE Phantom Squadrons (42 points)

This is the only four activation version of this fleet I can find I think might work. The subtle twist I'm considering drops APTs and Ordnance Experts for Flight Controllers and a decent bid.

There are two three ship versions I can think of. Both involve an Imperial as the actual anti-ship hammer, plus at least one Arquitens as extra. For this first one, I'm relying on Tarkin to help me get the extra couple squad activations on the sly, and eventually transition to engineering or CF to help the Arq and ISD mop up.

Zaarin Thought Better of It
Author: GiledPallaeon

Faction: Galactic Empire
Points: 400/400

Commander: Grand Moff Tarkin

Assault Objective: Most Wanted
Defense Objective: Contested Outpost
Navigation Objective: Superior Positions

Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 points)
- Expanded Hangar Bay (5 points)
= 28 total ship cost

Arquitens-class Light Cruiser (54 points)
- Captain Needa (2 points)
- Turbolaser Reroute Circuits (7 points)
= 63 total ship cost

[ flagship ] Imperial II-Class Star Destroyer (120 points)
- Grand Moff Tarkin (38 points)
- Skilled First Officer (1 points)
- Gunnery Team (7 points)
- Reinforced Blast Doors (5 points)
- Leading Shots (4 points)
= 175 total ship cost

1 JumpMaster 5000 (12 points)
1 Zertik Strom (15 points)
2 TIE Advanced Squadrons (24 points)
1 Whisper (20 points)
3 TIE Phantom Squadrons (42 points)
1 Darth Vader (21 points)

By contrast, this one has a pair of Arqs and an I-1 as the anti-ship beat stick, all led by Motti.

Zaarin Upgraded Further
Author: GiledPallaeon

Faction: Galactic Empire
Points: 400/400

Commander: Admiral Motti

Assault Objective: Advanced Gunnery
Defense Objective: Contested Outpost
Navigation Objective: Superior Positions

[ flagship ] Imperial I-Class Star Destroyer (110 points)
- Admiral Motti (24 points)
- Relentless (3 points)
- Flight Commander (3 points)
- Ordnance Experts (4 points)
- Leading Shots (4 points)
= 148 total ship cost

Arquitens-class Command Cruiser (59 points)
= 59 total ship cost

Arquitens-class Command Cruiser (59 points)
= 59 total ship cost

1 JumpMaster 5000 (12 points)
1 Darth Vader (21 points)
1 Zertik Strom (15 points)
2 TIE Advanced Squadrons (24 points)
1 Whisper (20 points)
3 TIE Phantom Squadrons (42 points)

Do people have opinions on the necessity of Flight Controllers here? Especially on the ISD lists, I'm not convinced the limited effect it might have is worth it, as opposed to careful engagement, and obliterating everything to disengage the Advanced. There's also the question of the Jumpmaster, whether to drop Vader to turn him into Dengar and a point, or turn him into an Advanced, or just take twelve points back, which some of these lists need more than others. I have high hopes for this fleet once the Quasar Fire drops, but for now I'm stuck up a creek with less than optimal paddles.

All 3 variants lack on ship threat but you have pointed that out.

Flight controllers adds .75 damage per squadron you use to attack. If you have a plan to get damage out of it, it can be huge. If you activate squads once and then spam other commands it becomes less huge.

Also, Phantoms are fun, i have played against them and because they are so hard to pin down they definitely can have a role, but I dont think they should make up the core of anti squad in a fleet. Throw one in as a curveball to chase down fleeing target, or get them into a fight near the station for extra heals.

Maybe go in the direction of the second fleet but replace the heavy anti fighter ball with ryhmer and a slew of standard tie bombers and a few phantoms thrown in. Or cut down on a few to add another threat.

You can put XI7 on the isd and replace gunnery team with flight controllers and the advanced gunnery objective if you want flight controllers. The gunnery team-less isd II with AG and tarkin for tokens is pretty tough. On that same token (pun) Tarkin usually handles the repairs and makes it more useful yo have ecm over rbd. But that could be personal preference.

So you think Phantoms fill a similar fleet role to E-wings, a scalpel brought in small numbers (pairs unless shenanigans). I was concerned about ship threat, but the raw speed of the Phantoms I figured might make for some interesting things with Superior Positions once the squadron battle is over. What of dropping the unnamed Advanced, the Jumpmaster, and two of the Phantoms for Defenders, maybe two generics and Stele? That boosts power against generic squadrons, and provides a late-game bombing potential.

I think about Phantoms as TIE Bombers that can hit squadrons and then it all falls into place. The interesting squad composition would be a Rhymerball with a mix of Bombers and Phantoms protected by 1-2 Tie/Adv. Lets say Rhymer, 3xBomber, 3xPhantom, Zertik, Tempest TieAdv, Dengar = 133. The idea needs testing, of course.

I also noted if at any point Whisper is near your TIE Advanced squadrons he is not going to get to use his ability to move after spending a defense toekn because he will not have to use any. Maybe just make him another standard flight of Phantoms and spend the pts elsewhere.

Drop Flight commander, the Jumpmaster and bust Vader down to a standard TIE Advanced squadron and you could add 2 Lambda-Shuttles to your list. This will allow you to use relay to activate some of your key squadrons regardless of range from the commanding carrier.

4 hours ago, Wes Janson said:

I also noted if at any point Whisper is near your TIE Advanced squadrons he is not going to get to use his ability to move after spending a defense toekn because he will not have to use any. Maybe just make him another standard flight of Phantoms and spend the pts elsewhere.

Drop Flight commander, the Jumpmaster and bust Vader down to a standard TIE Advanced squadron and you could add 2 Lambda-Shuttles to your list. This will allow you to use relay to activate some of your key squadrons regardless of range from the commanding carrier.

The Whisper part is a good point, I will make that adjustment. The problem is that I also need to kick Strom down to a generic to get back under 134 in squadrons. I may try it anyway, since it opens huge Strategic options, but I'm not terribly enthused about four escorts with no braces among them. Would losing all that ace firepower be worth something like PIC or Minefields?

7 hours ago, pt106 said:

I think about Phantoms as TIE Bombers that can hit squadrons and then it all falls into place. The interesting squad composition would be a Rhymerball with a mix of Bombers and Phantoms protected by 1-2 Tie/Adv. Lets say Rhymer, 3xBomber, 3xPhantom, Zertik, Tempest TieAdv, Dengar = 133. The idea needs testing, of course.

I took this the other way, spending the points of a Dengar on Vader and Strom. I may find I need intel, but I think the lethality of FC Vader/Strom/Phantoms ought be enough to blast away anything threatening the bombers that isn't a Biggsball. It would look something like this.

Zaarin Mod 4
Author: GiledPallaeon

Faction: Galactic Empire
Points: 400/400

Commander: Grand Moff Tarkin

Assault Objective: Most Wanted
Defense Objective: Contested Outpost
Navigation Objective: Superior Positions

Arquitens-class Light Cruiser (54 points)
- Weapons Liaison ( 3 points)
- Dual Turbolaser Turrets ( 5 points)
= 62 total ship cost

[ flagship ] Imperial II-Class Star Destroyer (120 points)
- Grand Moff Tarkin ( 38 points)
- Relentless ( 3 points)
- Flight Controllers ( 6 points)
- Electronic Countermeasures ( 7 points)
- XX-9 Turbolasers ( 5 points)
- Leading Shots ( 4 points)
= 183 total ship cost

Gozanti-class Assault Carriers (28 points)
- Expanded Hangar Bay ( 5 points)
= 33 total ship cost

1 Darth Vader ( 21 points)
1 Zertik Strom ( 15 points)
3 TIE Phantom Squadrons ( 42 points)
1 Major Rhymer ( 16 points)
2 TIE Bomber Squadrons ( 18 points)
1 Gamma Squadron ( 10 points)

8 hours ago, GiledPallaeon said:

The Whisper part is a good point, I will make that adjustment. The problem is that I also need to kick Strom down to a generic to get back under 134 in squadrons. I may try it anyway, since it opens huge Strategic options, but I'm not terribly enthused about four escorts with no braces among them. Would losing all that ace firepower be worth something like PIC or Minefields?

I think you could consider Capture the VIP, and use the shuttles early to drag the objective off to you. Considering relay and strategic are both usable in the same turn it could create problems for your enemies. Deploy outward from the start, relay your fighters out to cover your shuttle advance during the squadron step. Anyway you get the idea. Even Intel sweep could be a great objective further allowing you domination of the strategic sector of the game. To me any objective worth points will help your small ship count fleet instead of trying to engage and destroy the enemy as your only means of generating pts. Close range intel scan wouldnt be a bad final objective. Forces Rebel Ackbar/Home One players to spend their accuracies to gain pts vs killing your ships.

I'm also considering adjusting the Mod 4 fleet again slightly, moving Expanded Hangar Bay onto the Star Destroyer, and dropping a Bomber and XX-9s to pay for another Phantom, maxing out the advantages of Flight Controllers. I'm either taking this fleet, or one of the iterations of Rhymer plus Decimators to a local tourney on 5/6, and at this point, it looks like it'll come down to what I feel like that day.

14 hours ago, Wes Janson said:

I think you could consider Capture the VIP, and use the shuttles early to drag the objective off to you. Considering relay and strategic are both usable in the same turn it could create problems for your enemies. Deploy outward from the start, relay your fighters out to cover your shuttle advance during the squadron step. Anyway you get the idea. Even Intel sweep could be a great objective further allowing you domination of the strategic sector of the game. To me any objective worth points will help your small ship count fleet instead of trying to engage and destroy the enemy as your only means of generating pts. Close range intel scan wouldnt be a bad final objective. Forces Rebel Ackbar/Home One players to spend their accuracies to gain pts vs killing your ships.

Yeah, all that makes sense. I figured one advantage of Contested Outpost is that I can park on it for a couple early turns to force the engagement and steal points simultaneously. If I really wanted to go objective ham, I've got a version of this squad complement fitted into an ISD/Interdictor list with GSR and G-7X, which really ought to win the tokens war (again Contested Outpost, now with an extra yank towards me, and Dangerous Territory). What do you think of that concept (do I need to post that list)?

I get where your going. I do think you have a decent list working here now though. I just always get leary in low activation fleet of making enemy destruction my only tool for winning however. Based on your point total you are probably going to see your opponent choose the 1st or 2nd advantage though.