10 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

If you guys don't mind, what was the list...? What medium ship are you even talking about btw?

(Is it just me thats been under a rock, or is it actually not easily available on this forum what the worlds list is?)

..

Also a google search shows armada worlds in 2017 in May. ... what?

JJ's world list.

Assault frigate MK2 B
Dodonna
Flight Controllers

MC30 torpedo
APT
Ordnance Experts
H9 Turbos
Admonition

GR-75
Toryn Farr
BCC
Bright Hope

GR-75
BCC

GR-75
Leia
Comms Net

8x Y-Wing
2x YT-1300
2x HWK-290

I actually get a lot of info about this game from this forum. Which I very much appreciate when that happens.

@Undeadguy: That 3 AFs was like wave2. We're in Wave5 with a specific problem from Wave 3/4.

I do know that one. Reinig right?

It was like Gencon Special vs something with a lifeboat corvette and like 8 A wings

Then Clonisher on vassal

Then 2 ship ISD + Demo + Rhymer.

Then the 8yt2400 list -> I think this is the most recent national championship I know of.

I was thinking of whether I had missed a recent worlds, which I guess I haven't, its in May.

2 minutes ago, ovinomanc3r said:

@Blail Blerg are you there?

I have no patience.

1 minute ago, Undeadguy said:

JJ's world list.

Assault frigate MK2 B
Dodonna
Flight Controllers

MC30 torpedo
APT
Ordnance Experts
H9 Turbos
Admonition

GR-75
Toryn Farr
BCC
Bright Hope

GR-75
BCC

GR-75
Leia
Comms Net

8x Y-Wing
2x YT-1300
2x HWK-290

Thanks, oh right this one. Much appreciated.

Do you by chance know the bid and the objectives?

1 minute ago, Blail Blerg said:

I actually get a lot of info about this game from this forum. Which I very much appreciate when that happens.

@Undeadguy: That 3 AFs was like wave2. We're in Wave5 with a specific problem from Wave 3/4.

I do know that one. Reinig right?

It was like Gencon Special vs something with a lifeboat corvette and like 8 A wings

Then Clonisher on vassal

Then 2 ship ISD + Demo + Rhymer.

Then the 8yt2400 list -> I think this is the most recent national championship I know of.

I was thinking of whether I had missed a recent worlds, which I guess I haven't, its in May.

Yea but both FFG worlds have been won with AF and squads if that says anything. I don't think so. 2 data points is very small.

Just now, Blail Blerg said:

Thanks, oh right this one. Much appreciated.

Do you by chance know the bid and the objectives?

No I just dug through 45 pages to find that. It didn't have bid, which we could math it out, or objectives.

@JJs Juggernaut Can you help us out?

I think the Medium-based ships are really where it's at. You're looking at 2 very good carriers right now with another ship that should also be good as a carrier. I think my VSDs have performed pretty well recently and my Assault Frigate was a wonderful range 1 bubble with Gallant Haven to protect my swarm of B-Wings.

Thanks @Undeadguy

---

I actually thought medium ships were gonna be the face of the game due to the high amount of points needed for "META REQUIREMENTS": We are all bad players and losing the game because we refuse to make every fleet we have have not 64pts of squadrons but 90+ squadrons and 2+ flotillas with upgrades, totaling around 50 points. Thus really, we are actually supposed to play 260pt Armada, if we are not trying to focus on squadrons or flotillas as non-integral to the fleet idea.

So I made those VVGZZ lists. Turns out... its a horrible meta. Not fun at all.

Anyway, lol, whoever gets to it first, it'd be interesting to see how many medium ships made it to top4 and top8 of regionals.

---

The two worlds data points are not statistically conclusive, but they CAN be strategically/subjectively conclusive. The wrong data from it: A statistic based on data points. When I read that, I see this: 8 sets of the same squadron relieve play pressure, are extremely good threatening force and show how the world champs are using their squads as if they were a ship with a threat area.

I think they're great lists, but I also do NOT want to buy 8 rogues! or 4 sets of Rebel fighters 1 when I don't even like playing with squadrons that much. (Let's not even talk about the amount of prep needed to store all this)

21 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Thanks @Undeadguy

---

I actually thought medium ships were gonna be the face of the game due to the high amount of points needed for "META REQUIREMENTS" as explained by the white knights: We are all bad players and losing the game because we refuse to make every fleet we have have not 64pts of squadrons but 90+ squadrons and 2+ flotillas with upgrades, totaling around 50 points. Thus really, we are actually supposed to play 260pt Armada, if we are not trying to focus on squadrons or flotillas as non-integral to the fleet idea.

So I made those VVGZZ lists. Turns out... its a horrible meta. Not fun at all.

Anyway, lol, whoever gets to it first, it'd be interesting to see how many medium ships made it to top4 and top8 of regionals.

---

The two worlds data points are not statistically conclusive, but they CAN be strategically/subjectively conclusive. The wrong data from it: A statistic based on data points. When I read that, I see this: 8 sets of the same squadron relieve play pressure, are extremely good threatening force and show how the world champs are using their squads as if they were a ship with a threat area.

I think they're great lists, but I also do NOT want to buy 8 rogues! or 4 sets of Rebel fighters 1 when I don't even like playing with squadrons that much. (Let's not even talk about the amount of prep needed to store all this)

Thanks for calling me a white knight. I'm so glad I try to engage you constructively and offer ideas out about the state of the game, I'm grateful you're here on the forums to provide your opinions. Just so supportive and helpful.

-________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________-

Just now, geek19 said:

Thanks for calling me a white knight. I'm so glad I try to engage you constructively and offer ideas out about the state of the game, I'm grateful you're here on the forums to provide your opinions. Just so supportive and helpful.

-________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________-

Yknow, I think I did come off stronger personally here than I intended. Sorry. I can edit this to something else if you'd like.

but honestly I'm going to stand by what I said in the other thread. You were coming off as a white knight in a thread that was about testing changes. And my feelings about what you raised as why we're bad players and don't take enough squadrons remain.

If the only definition of "good" is "on average, will land in the top 4 of a regional" - we may have set the bar too high.

Lots of fun lists can be built with AF2s, VSDs and Interdictors.

Here's one fun exercise for casual play that will eliminate the need for a hyper-competitive list: Play a game and then switch fleets and play again. Total the score for both games to determine the winner.

This means that you don't have to push for super-efficient builds, as player skill will be a larger factor in who wins the mini-tournament.

1 hour ago, Blail Blerg said:

Yknow we should really talk about the big elephant in the room: No medium made it at all to the winners lists in ALL of the regionals data.

Another unspoken truth is over why the VSD-II is never taken. It has longer range, it should work, right? And Ions are helpful, yeah? It's not like it's going to actually get into black range unless the opponent willfully lets it happen, so why not go for something good like Leading shots or SW-7s?

VSD-Is are taken because it's the cheapest carrier for the Empire right now, regardless of the weapons it's packing.

It will be interesting to see if the QF upstages it in this role, either for ability or for cost.

11 minutes ago, Norsehound said:

Another unspoken truth is over why the VSD-II is never taken. It has longer range, it should work, right? And Ions are helpful, yeah? It's not like it's going to actually get into black range unless the opponent willfully lets it happen, so why not go for something good like Leading shots or SW-7s?

VSD-Is are taken because it's the cheapest carrier for the Empire right now, regardless of the weapons it's packing.

It will be interesting to see if the QF upstages it in this role, either for ability or for cost.

Let's get this on the table in plain talk: The data shows the medium ships aren't taken.

Personally, I think Vics are gonna be great except for a few matchups that are horrid (Ackbar). I tried a 2 vic Demo list, it wasn't good, but it had some potential. I actually want to try replacing the Demo with a 3rd vic crazy enough. Just cuz I think the threat zones are better in that set up!

I love my AFs, they're my fav, but Ackbar lists with AFs got slaughtered hard: Ackbar has a natural counter in squadrons and 134 squadrons is the name of the game.

MC80 Ackbar does moderately well cuz it can withstand partial mass squadron attacks and then has the ability to really one shot lots of small ships. AFs just do a lot of damage over time. Accuracies aren't reliable.

I love VSDs, but those two problems I mentioned upthread bring them down every time. If I rush my opponent, I suffer too much damage on the approach before I can get my second row into firing range (or when I do, my VSDs are on fire). Either speed or protection could solve this issue to allow the ship to live just a little longer and actually earn the resiliency you pay for. But we're a long way from the days VSDs were the big fish in the pond, now in a universe where ships can guarantee 2 damage per shot and swarming big ships with dozens of stinging gnats makes large ships nearly untenable. Only the ISD, because it is the strongest ship in the game, survives. Else, for any of the large/medium ships, you'd have to ask if a small ship could do it better. VSDs live because no small ship can be as great of a carrier as a VSD Can (via biodegradability, fighter rating, and Weapons teams).

VSDs make it by, but just barely I feel, and not for the roles I wish they would shine for.

Wait until Leia hits the tables...not having to bank tokens is going to be obscene.

AFs pushing five squadrons is gonna be real...

Gr75s pushing 4 squadrons is gonna be real.

Yavaris pushing 3 without banking is gonna be real.

Squadrons are the name of the game for wave six.

34 minutes ago, Gottmituns205 said:

Wait until Leia hits the tables...not having to bank tokens is going to be obscene.

The problem is it seems to me like she'll do more for small ships than medium ships.

In particular, Nebulon-Bs are going to love her. Going from speed 1 (snipe/hang out speed) to speed 3 (holy crap run away speed) in one turn? Awesome. Concentrate fire for a die and a reroll on all those red dice? Awesome (Salvation says hi). Squadrons for 3? Awesome (Yavaris says hi). Repair for 5 except oh wait I forgot Redemption was a title and now it's actually 6? Awesome.

2 minutes ago, Snipafist said:

The problem is it seems to me like she'll do more for small ships than medium ships.

In particular, Nebulon-Bs are going to love her. Going from speed 1 (snipe/hang out speed) to speed 3 (holy crap run away speed) in one turn? Awesome. Concentrate fire for a die and a reroll on all those red dice? Awesome (Salvation says hi). Squadrons for 3? Awesome (Yavaris says hi). Repair for 5 except oh wait I forgot Redemption was a title and now it's actually 6? Awesome.

Redemption projection experts anyone?

53 minutes ago, Snipafist said:

The problem is it seems to me like she'll do more for small ships than medium ships.

In particular, Nebulon-Bs are going to love her. Going from speed 1 (snipe/hang out speed) to speed 3 (holy crap run away speed) in one turn? Awesome. Concentrate fire for a die and a reroll on all those red dice? Awesome (Salvation says hi). Squadrons for 3? Awesome (Yavaris says hi). Repair for 5 except oh wait I forgot Redemption was a title and now it's actually 6? Awesome.

I think it'll be silly to see GR75's pushing 4 squadrons a round....that is where it gets silly.

12 minutes ago, Gottmituns205 said:

I think it'll be silly to see GR75's pushing 4 squadrons a round....that is where it gets silly.

Silly.....Or amazing? I like amazing, myself.

8 hours ago, Undeadguy said:

@JJs Juggernaut Can you help us out?

You have my fleet correct. It was 400/400 points. Objectives: Most Wanted, Contested Outpost, Superior Positions.

8 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

I actually thought medium ships were gonna be the face of the game due to the high amount of points needed for "META REQUIREMENTS": We are all bad players and losing the game because we refuse to make every fleet we have have not 64pts of squadrons but 90+ squadrons and 2+ flotillas with upgrades, totaling around 50 points. Thus really, we are actually supposed to play 260pt Armada, if we are not trying to focus on squadrons or flotillas as non-integral to the fleet idea.

I think they're great lists, but I also do NOT want to buy 8 rogues! or 4 sets of Rebel fighters 1 when I don't even like playing with squadrons that much. (Let's not even talk about the amount of prep needed to store all this)

1.) I have almost exclusively been playing 50-90 points of squads since last Worlds in November (sometimes with or without flotillas, usually with one though), it is quite viable.

2.) I didn't want to buy 4 squadron 1 pack either (and I'll never, ever, EVER pick up 8 rogues....). I was having so much fun with 12 Y-wings on Vassal though! I eventually found 8 was better anyway, and was still fun/good enough for me to pick up another pack. If you think storing them is an issue, I won't mention painting them

2 hours ago, JJs Juggernaut said:

1.) I have almost exclusively been playing 50-90 points of squads since last Worlds in November (sometimes with or without flotillas, usually with one though), it is quite viable.

2.) I didn't want to buy 4 squadron 1 pack either (and I'll never, ever, EVER pick up 8 rogues....). I was having so much fun with 12 Y-wings on Vassal though! I eventually found 8 was better anyway, and was still fun/good enough for me to pick up another pack. If you think storing them is an issue, I won't mention painting them

Yeah. all my stuff, even my big ships get painted. =D I'm totally not ready for more squadrons than I can wad in my hands haha.

16 hours ago, Norsehound said:

Another unspoken truth is over why the VSD-II is never taken. It has longer range, it should work, right? And Ions are helpful, yeah? It's not like it's going to actually get into black range unless the opponent willfully lets it happen, so why not go for something good like Leading shots or SW-7s?

VSD-Is are taken because it's the cheapest carrier for the Empire right now, regardless of the weapons it's packing.

It will be interesting to see if the QF upstages it in this role, either for ability or for cost.

I exclusively take Vic II. I rarely see a Vic I front arc get used. I used to run 2 Vic II+GT+LS+SA+SFO. It was pretty effective but suffered from lack of activations. I'm thinking about rebuilding it with the new stuff.

I am going to wreck everything with my JJ's VSD fleet. At least this is my intention and it is going really well.